What is Salvation?

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Martin Luther, “Martin Luther: Selections from his Writings” Dillenberger, page 35

Here Luther denies that the epistle is inspired because he considers it contradictory to the Word of God claiming it is in direct opposition to Paul. Also he mentions the epistle’s “defect.” So much for biblical inerrancy. But his dislike of this God inspired epistle becomes much clearer in the next quote. Writing once again of James: “In sum he wished to guard against those who depended on faith without going to works, but he had neither the spirit nor the thought nor the eloquence equal to the task. He does violence to scripture and so contradicts Paul and all of scripture. He tries to accomplish by emphasizing law what the Apostles bring about by attracting men to love. I therefore refuse him a place among the writers of the true canon of my Bible.”

My personal concerns with a wealth of doctrinal claims from the Reformation is that they offer an exegesis to interpret the Bible simply not found outside of Martin Luther. He was the genesis of this exegesis and thus the Father of all modern claims of “Once Saved, Always Saved” and “Justification by Faith alone”, etc. Once you delve into the wealth of material which Luther wrote, I dare so, one walks away with a great deal of questions as to the genuine validity of this methods.

Now I know that we now have a roughly 400 year old tradition which now presents an alternative exegesis to that of the early Church Fathers but I encourage any modern Biblical Scholar to delve into the historic exegesis of the Apostolic Fathers (Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, the author of 2 Clement, “Barnabas”, Hermas) as well as the Greek Apologists (Aristides, Justin, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus) to determine were the Church drew her teaching, and how she assessed its soundness historically. For these Apostolic Fathers, Christianity seems to have implied a complex of belief and practice (in Clement’s phrase, “the rule of our tradition’, or in Justin’s, “following God and the teaching derived from Him’) which in the final resort went back to Christ himself. There was an exegesis in place to interpret the Old Testament as well as to craft the apostles use of it with their proclamations of the Gospels of Christ. But if He was the spreme teacher, the immediately accessible authorities both for the facts about His Person and for His message were (a) the prophets, who had foreseen every detail of His ministry, and (b) the apostles, who had worked with Him and whom He had commissioned. This two-fold appeal to the united witness of the Old Testament and the apostles was characteristic of the age; it is aptly illustrated by Polycarp’s summons to the Philippians to accept as their standard Christ Himself along with “the apostles who preached the gospel to us and the prophets who announced our Lord’s coming in advance’. First, the doctrinal authority ascribed to it was based on the apparently unquestioning assumption that, correctly interpreted, it was a Christian book, and that the prophets in particular were really testifying to Christ and His Glory. Justin’s insistence that the Jewish Scriptures did not belong to the Jews but to the Christians was universally shared. Secondly, this assumption was only rendered possible because Christians were using, consciously or unconsciously, a particular method of exegesis. This method, again, will come up for additional comment later I’m sure, for the moment it is sufficient to remark that it was not overly contained in, or suggested by, the Old Testament itself. One need look no further than the rejection of the Jews to this “new” method of Scriptural interpretation.

The point being, a method of interpretation was in place at the time of the apostles which formed their own understanding of Scripture and their own writings concerning Scripture. This method is considered a tradition which accompanied Scripture for its correct and orthodox interpretation and under standing. I might remark that without such tradition Gnostic Sects would have been just as valid with their assertions toward Scripture as those of the early Church. Many modern Christians practice a very weak method of interpretation with a few key doctrinal claims which “colors” their own exegesis. As their can only be one correct exegesis for the Christian claims that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, so too must we recognize that tradition informs our understanding of Scripture.

Peace.
 
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Gracehawk:
Hey Robert, thank you for clarifying yourself. I’m sorry if I seemed a little hostile myself in saying you seemed a little hostile.😃

I’ll respond to your arguments in peacemeal fashion but in the mean time, could you and/or one of the other posters here elighten me about how Roman Catholics can be fully assured of their salvation. Or in Roman Catholicism, is it impossible to fully assured of one’s salvation?
Dear Gracehawk;

The short answer is that Catholics (not just “Roman” Catholics but all Catholics) can have an assurance of salvation. What we do not believe in is the “infallible certitude” of salvation that Martin Luther talked about when he first developed the notion of “Once Saved, Always Saved” at the time of the Reformation. Catholics believe that such an infallible certitude by a person is actually the sin of presumption. A very dangerous sin that can lead one to a false sense of one’s own salvation.

What is important to salvation in Catholic teaching is the state of one’s soul at death. If we die in a state of grace we go to Heaven. If we die in a state of mortal sin (outside of God’s grace) we do not go to Heaven. Since no one can know with absolute certainty what state they will be in at the time of death, there can be no infallible certitude of our salvation. However, one can examine their life, contemplate their heart and know with some assurance whether they are likely to obtain salvation.

You may ask then, “Aren’t Catholics living in constant fear of going to Hell if even one mortal sin can send you there?” My answer is no. A mortal sin is not your common every-day occurrence for a practicing Catholic, and so one would know in their heart if they were in need of repentence. Also, I would say that Catholics are no more in fear of losing salvation than Protestants are concerned about whether or not they have “really” believed and accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

There’s a very good discussion of your specific question at the Catholic Answers website. Click on the topic “Salvation” in the Llibrary section of the Catholic Anwers Home page. You will see the discussion titled “Assurance of Salvation?” It provides a much more detailed answer than I could provide on this thread. The website is at www.catholic.com.

The discussion ends with the following remark:
“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”
Peace and Charity,
 
Peace be with you Robert in SD,

I have been reading a really great book, “Early Christian Doctrines” by J.N.D. Kelly about a whole host of very interesting issues which I’m attempting to share with GraceHawk. Of course, the scope of the thesis is difficult to condense but my reason for bringing this up with you is to ask a question.

With the refutation of the Gnostic Christians and their alternative exegesis for which they claimed a “secret” doctrine the Apostolic Fathers established a public dialog outlining a traditional “orthodox” method for the interpretation of Scripture. Is it your opinion or that of the Church during the time of Martin Luther that this “new” assault was yet another attempt to rest interpretative authority from this traditional “orthodox” exegesis? If so, how does that Catholic Church continue to recognize the legitamacy of Protestant Salvation? Is it the Churches position that this “new” exegesis has over time degenerated into less of an error?

What is your opinion and that of others who are more learned on the subject than perhaps I am.

Peace.
 
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chrisb:
With the refutation of the Gnostic Christians and their alternative exegesis for which they claimed a “secret” doctrine the Apostolic Fathers established a public dialog outlining a traditional “orthodox” method for the interpretation of Scripture. Is it your opinion or that of the Church during the time of Martin Luther that this “new” assault was yet another attempt to rest interpretative authority from this traditional “orthodox” exegesis? If so, how does that Catholic Church continue to recognize the legitamacy of Protestant Salvation? Is it the Churches position that this “new” exegesis has over time degenerated into less of an error?
Hello Chrisb;

That’s a very interesting and complicated question. I’m not a biblical scholar or a theoligian, but as a lay person who dabbles in apologetics, I can offer the following “off the cuff” opinion of my own (and I’m not speaking for the Church):

I believe the Reformation - which arose initially as a response to abuses of Church authority but quickly turned to a doctrinal reformation - was ultimately an attempt to wrest interpretive authority from the Church and place it into the hands of individuals. Hence, thousands of protestant sects with differing views on various doctrines as fundamental as baptism, salvation, the Trinity, etc.

I don’t think that the Church has ever backed away from the conclusion that protestantism is a heresy, but the current ecumenism focuses (rightly in my opinion) upon the similarities between orthodox and protestant christian beliefs in an effort to maintain dialogue and seek reunification. In other words, Catholicism admits that protestantism has some Truth contained within it, but not the fullness of Truth that is contained in the Catholic Church.

The “new” exegesis in my opinion has not become less erroneous, nor has it been perceived as such in the present day. Indeed, it continues to spin off new sects at an amazing rate, limited only by human creativity.

As it pertains to the present thread, “Sola fide” and “Once Saved, Always Saved” are (again in my opinion) dangerous doctrines only in the sense that they are incomplete. Is Faith required for salvation? Of course, but not faith alone. And was Christ’s attonement perfect and complete? Yes, but our human attempt to obtain that redemption can fall short.

Peace and Charity,
 
Peace be with you Robert in SD,

Well said. So let me throw this one at you. Okay, so we recognize that the Reformation offered a “new” method of exegesis to posit their “new” doctrines. That is a given.

But how sure are Catholics that what “current” method of exegesis posited is the “same” as that which was posited by the Apostolic Father and the Apologists of the early Church? As far as tradition of the Church is concerned, it continues to be a “living” tradition which “moves” through time.

Is it a legitimate argument for the Reformation to posit that what is posited by the Church was “not” that which was posited by the early Church, that in fact reform was necessary?

Peace.
 
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Gracehawk:
OK, I’ll leave you with this simple question. It certainly does seem to me that you guys are saying that we’re saved by both faith and works. Well, if that’s the case, how do you know if you’ve done enough works to earn Salvation? If any of you were to die tomorrow, would any of you be sure where you would spend eternity?
You have to tie James with the rest of Paul’s writings in that sense, IMO. My interpretation: we are saved through grace, not works, but if we say we are saved by grace, yet do not behave (works) differently than before we claimed to have been ‘saved’, this could indicate that the person did not totally accept Christ into their lives.

This is why James says faith without works is dead and ‘even the demons believe and shudder’. He seems to indicate that if there are no signs of a ‘conversion experience’, it is a head belief only, not saving faith. I always liked the way the apostle John said it in his first epistle

1john2:3-4(NAS)* By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, ‘I have come to know Him’, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in Him*

Earlier in the epistle John says we all have sin, but if we confess our sins, he forgives us. So, I see it as tying together as salvation by grace, but the outworking of that grace is the works that James speaks of. So the works do not save, but are a reflection of the saving grace, IMO Along that vein, since works cannot save us, there is no way to keep a tally and say that we have done enough to get to heaven. If we were able to ‘work’ our way into heaven, then Christ would not have needed to die.

By nature, we have sin and good works do not take that away, but only Jesus blood sacrifice imputes rigteousness onto us, and our appreciation for that free gift is praise, thanksgiving to Him, sharing with others about this gift (the gospel) and attempting to live in a Christian manner, resulting from grace.

Laura
 
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silverbullet:
You have to tie James with the rest of Paul’s writings in that sense, IMO. My interpretation: we are saved through grace, not works, but if we say we are saved by grace, yet do not behave (works) differently than before we claimed to have been ‘saved’, this could indicate that the person did not totally accept Christ into their lives.

This is why James says faith without works is dead and ‘even the demons believe and shudder’. He seems to indicate that if there are no signs of a ‘conversion experience’, it is a head belief only, not saving faith. I always liked the way the apostle John said it in his first epistle

1john2:3-4(NAS)* By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, ‘I have come to know Him’, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in Him*

Earlier in the epistle John says we all have sin, but if we confess our sins, he forgives us. So, I see it as tying together as salvation by grace, but the outworking of that grace is the works that James speaks of. So the works do not save, but are a reflection of the saving grace, IMO Along that vein, since works cannot save us, there is no way to keep a tally and say that we have done enough to get to heaven. If we were able to ‘work’ our way into heaven, then Christ would not have needed to die.

By nature, we have sin and good works do not take that away, but only Jesus blood sacrifice imputes rigteousness onto us, and our appreciation for that free gift is praise, thanksgiving to Him, sharing with others about this gift (the gospel) and attempting to live in a Christian manner, resulting from grace.

Laura
Peace be with you Laura,

Well said! I wish I could express myself with so few words.

Peace.
 
Hello Silverbullet/Laura. Welcome to the discussion;
You have to tie James with the rest of Paul’s writings in that sense, IMO. My interpretation: we are saved through grace, not works, but if we say we are saved by grace, yet do not behave (works) differently than before we claimed to have been ‘saved’, this could indicate that the person did not totally accept Christ into their lives.
It seems to me that what you’re saying is that if a person does not truly “accept Christ into their lives” they will not do good (as opposed to salvific) works. That simply does not hold up on a practical level. Many atheists do good works, but that does not result in their salvation. And to the contrary, a person could have a deathbed conversion, be filled with grace through baptism (Sacramental or baptism of desire) and obtain salvation without ever doing good works. So maybe it would move the discussion along if I explain that to Catholics, not all good works are salvific. Only works done while in a state of grace can have any salvific effect. And the salvific effect that those works have is the effect that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians. Those are the works that move us closer to God. So Catholics believe that “works” are important not just as an indication of a state of grace, but as part of the process of attaining salvation.
This is why James says faith without works is dead and ‘even the demons believe and shudder’. He seems to indicate that if there are no signs of a ‘conversion experience’, it is a head belief only, not saving faith. I always liked the way the apostle John said it in his first epistle
Again, works are more than just an indication of “saving faith” they are an integral part of acheiving salvation. But, as I indicated above, the salvific effect is all God’s work. We who do the work are His instruments only and cannot “boast” of acheiving salvation apart from God.
1john2:3-4(NAS)* By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, ‘I have come to know Him’, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in Him*
Amen! Amen! This quote actually contradicts the notion of salvation through faith alone. It clearly compels christians to “keep His commandments”
Earlier in the epistle John says we all have sin, but if we confess our sins, he forgives us. So, I see it as tying together as salvation by grace, but the outworking of that grace is the works that James speaks of. So the works do not save, but are a reflection of the saving grace, IMO Along that vein, since works cannot save us, there is no way to keep a tally and say that we have done enough to get to heaven. If we were able to ‘work’ our way into heaven, then Christ would not have needed to die.
As I indicated above, “works” done through His grace are an integral part of our salvation. They are more than simply an indicia of active faith, but a necessity for an active saving faith.
By nature, we have sin and good works do not take that away, but only Jesus blood sacrifice imputes rigteousness onto us, and our appreciation for that free gift is praise, thanksgiving to Him, sharing with others about this gift (the gospel) and attempting to live in a Christian manner, resulting from grace.
Catholics believe that the Sacrament of Baptism takes away Original Sin, and receving the Sacrament of Reconciliation (“confession”) returns us to a state of grace. The first establishes our relationship with Christ. The second restores a right relationship with Christ. In effect Catholics are “saved” at baptism and “saved” again when Reconciled to Christ.

Peace and Charity,
 
Hey Guys, sorry that I’ve been gone for a while but I’m back now.

As for Luther, I admire the man but that is exactly what he was: just a man, and that means he was not perfect. As for biblical interpretation, I believe we are to interpret scripture in light of scripture, especially things that are not as clear as other things in scripture. I believe in an earlier post in this thread or another thread on this forum, I gave my explanation for what I believe the book of James is about. Feel free to take me up on that.

I have one other thing to say about Marty Luther. I am not an expert on the man so, please correct me if I’m wrong. I seriously question the assertion that he taught that a Christian cannot lose their salvation. If someone has documentation that proves that he taught this, please link to it and I will gladly check it out. I do know with 100% certainty that modern day Lutheran denominations, such as the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, teach that a Christian can lose their salvation. If you guys are right about Luther teaching that Christians cannot lose their salvation, then these denominations are at odds with the man in which their identity is, which would be pretty weird.
 
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