What is salvation?

[moondweller]

I have to say that is a very Orthodox understanding my friend. If you are going to talk about salvation the first thing you have to define is what you are being saved from. If you accept the Protestant idea that we are saved from eternal torment you have to accept a characteristically pagan conception of God. Essentially the Protestants teach that God is bound by some necessity to punish us, a necessity that God apparently has no power over, and that in order to satisfy that necessity He had to punish someone of equal stature with Himself. In essence they teach that God (the Father), killed God (the Son), in order to save us from Himself! How ridiculous!

Protestants teach no such thing. The Son gave Himself as a willing sacrifice to save men. It wasn’t God who killed Christ, essentially you and I did when our sins were imputed to Him. And He died (sacrificially) not only “for” our sins but also “to sin” (our sins) once for all. And for this reason the true believer in Him is now “freed from sin” (Rom. 6:7

God is all loving and all merciful, we have no need to be saved from Him.

You need to be saved from Divine judgment concerning sin. And unless you believe in Christ you will die in your sins (Jn. 8:24).

We have nothing to fear from love. What we did need to be saved from is the power of sin and death and Christ accomplished that through His death and Resurrection. Now if we accept it the wall of separation between us and God has been torn down. Now if we desire we can attain to the same state as our First Father before the fall, and even much more as we proceed “from glory to glory.”

John 5:24 ¶ "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."Christ Himself is the believer’s glory, his salvation.

 

[placido]

Or test the teachings of the Popes and all men by what God Himself has revealed in His written Word.

.
Yours is an unbiblical (in fact anti-biblical) teaching. The Bible does nowehere restrict God’s word to a written form. It is both in written and oral form (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

placido

 

[placido]

You need to be saved from Divine judgment concerning sin. And unless you believe in Christ you will die in your sins (Jn. 8:24).

God saving man from God? That is confused theology!

placido

 

[moondweller]

God saving man from God? That is confused theology!

placido

No, it’s God saving men from the eternal consequence of sin by GRACE alone through FAITH in Christ alone. That’s not “confused theology” it’s straight up Biblical soteriology. Anything else is pure apostasy; a direct departure from the gospel preached by the Apostles recorded in the N.T. Scriptures.

 

[moondweller]

Yours is an unbiblical (in fact anti-biblical) teaching. The Bible does nowehere restrict God’s word to a written form. It is both in written and oral form (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

placido

That verse doesn’t say the “traditions” taught by them were different. They were to stand firm and hold to them whether by word or by letter. They were the same traditions. They didn’t receive one gospel orally and another in writing. That which was orally taught was also preserved in Holy Writ for future generations. The same way God had been doing it since Moses. As He said to the prophet Jeremiah: "… for I am watching over My word to perform it."

 

[josephdaniel29]

No, it’s God saving men from the eternal consequence of sin by GRACE alone through FAITH in Christ alone. That’s not “confused theology” it’s straight up Biblical soteriology. Anything else is pure apostasy; a direct departure from the gospel preached by the Apostles recorded in the N.T. Scriptures.

In what way does God’s grace save us?

 

[josephdaniel29]

Protestants teach no such thing. The Son gave Himself as a willing sacrifice to save men. It wasn’t God who killed Christ

So it wasn’t God’s will that Christ die?

And for this reason the true believer in Him is now “freed from sin”

Freed from sin in what respect? How did He free us from our sin?

You need to be saved from Divine judgment concerning sin.

So like I said. God died to save us from God’s judgement? Since God is actually God He can forgive or not forgive if He chooses. Are you saying that Jesus had to die to allow God to forgive us?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[moondweller]

In what way does God’s grace save us?

God Himself saves the believer by grace (i.e, unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor). It’s gifted by God, not being a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9)Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,."He saves though the work of Another, Jesus Christ the righteous.

 

[josephdaniel29]

God Himself saves the believer by grace (i.e, unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor). It’s gifted by God, not being a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9)Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,."He saves though the work of Another, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Maybe I should rephrase my question. What role does grace play? If our forgiveness was achieved through Christ’s sacrifice why is grace necessary? Or are you simply using grace as a synonym for forgiveness of sin?

In Christ
Joe

 

[moondweller]

So it wasn’t God’s will that Christ die?

It certainly was: ON YOUR BEHALF. That’s not the same as saying the Father killed the Son to save us from Himself. That’s pure perversion and blasphemy.John 10:17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

Freed from sin in what respect? How did He free us from our sin?

By imputing them (ALL of them) to Christ who died “TO SIN” (our sins) once for all. The believer in Christ is revealed to have been (positionally) co-crucified with Christ, co-buried and co-resurrected with Him (Rom. 6). For this reason Paul asks at the beginning of the chapter:Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"Christ not only died FOR our sins, He also died TO them, once for all.

So like I said. God died to save us from God’s judgement?

God cannot die. The Man Jesus Christ died a substitutionary death for the sins of all mankind (as well as “to” them): “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (Jn. 1:29; cf Col. 2:13-14).

Since God is actually God He can forgive or not forgive if He chooses.

No. He cannot simply wave his hand and forgive sins. He cannot violate His own attribute of justice.

Are you saying that Jesus had to die to allow God to forgive us?

Absolutely. Without the shedding of blood there is not forgiveness of sins. This was foreshadowed in the Law (Heb. 9:22). It’s Christ’s blood that is the “propitiation” (complete satisfaction) for our sins (Rom. 3:25; Heb. 2:7; 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:10). Because of Christ’s sacrificial death and the shedding of His blood, God is propitiated (satisfied).

 

[moondweller]

Maybe I should rephrase my question. What role does grace play? If our forgiveness was achieved through Christ’s sacrifice why is grace necessary? Or are you simply using grace as a synonym for forgiveness of sin?

In Christ
Joe

No, GRACE is the means by which He saves. He saves believers (not simply one who is water baptized) without merit, i.e., without recompense, undeservedly and unconditionally. That’s what “by grace” means. He saves the sinner “by grace, through faith.”

Contrary to the Catholic teaching that salvation is bestowed* incrementally* (a process), i.e, by dispensed “graces” through sacraments which enable the Catholic to perform “grace-fueled” works which aid him to become more Christlike in order to merit salvation (defined in Catholic theology as “actual grace” which is distinct from “sanctifying grace”). A foreign concept to the Scriptures in respect to the saving act of God which is simply “by grace - through faith - a gift of God - not as a result of works.”

 

[josephdaniel29]

It certainly was: ON YOUR BEHALF. That’s not the same as saying the Father killed the Son to save us from Himself.

But you just said that we had to be saved from God’s justice. If God purposefully sent His Son to die in order to save us from His judgment how else are we to interpret it?

By imputing them (ALL of them) to Christ who died “TO SIN” (our sins) once for all. The believer in Christ is revealed to have been (positionally) co-crucified with Christ, co-buried and co-resurrected with Him (Rom. 6). For this reason Paul asks at the beginning of the chapter:Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"Christ not only died FOR our sins, He also died TO them, once for all.

No one is questioning the fact that Christ died for our sins. The question is in what way and why. You say He died to save us from what God was going to do to us because of our sins. The genuine Apostolic teaching is that Christ died to save us not from God, but rather from the separation from God we had imposed on ourselves.

God was always there, loving and merciful, and just like the rays of the sun He never withdrew that love, it’s just that our vision had become obscured. When we chose to cut ourselves off from the only source of life the only logical result was we died. God did not do that to us. Christ came to restore the broken image and heal the chasm between God and man by uniting our fallen nature to the divine and destroying the power of sin and death.

God cannot die. The Man Jesus Christ died a substitutionary death for the sins of all mankind (as well as “to” them): “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (Jn. 1:29; cf Col. 2:13-14)

Are you separating Jesus into two person?

No. He cannot simply wave his hand and forgive sins. He cannot violate His own attribute of justice.

Absolutely. Without the shedding of blood there is not forgiveness of sins. This was foreshadowed in the Law (Heb. 9:22). It’s Christ’s blood that is the “propitiation” (complete satisfaction) for our sins (Rom. 3:25; Heb. 2:7; 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:10). Because of Christ’s sacrificial death and the shedding of His blood, God is propitiated (satisfied).

So God is bound by necessity to punish sin, an impersonal necessity He has no power over? That is a characteristically pagan conception of God. The Greek gods were bound by necessity as well. They were part of creation just like humans.

As to being bound by justice. God is not just in the sense you ascribe to Him. Justice does not forgive, it demands retribution. God is not just in the juridical sense of the term. God’s justice is His goodness because He gives His love and mercy equally to all. He is just because He loves us all exactly the same.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[josephdaniel29]

No, GRACE is the means by which He saves. He saves believers (not simply one who is water baptized) without merit, i.e., without recompense, undeservedly and unconditionally. That’s what “by grace” means. He saves the sinner “by grace, through faith.”

Contrary to the Catholic teaching that salvation is bestowed* incrementally* (a process), i.e, by dispensed “graces” through sacraments which enable the Catholic to perform “grace-fueled” works which aid him to become more Christlike in order to merit salvation (defined in Catholic theology as “actual grace” which is distinct from “sanctifying grace”). A foreign concept to the Scriptures in respect to the saving act of God which is simply “by grace - through faith - a gift of God - not as a result of works.”

What is grace precisely? Is grace something that God created?

 

[moondweller]

But you just said that we had to be saved from God’s justice. If God purposefully sent His Son to die in order to save us from His judgment how else are we to interpret it?

No one is questioning the fact that Christ died for our sins. The question is in what way and why. You say He died to save us from what God was going to do to us because of our sins. The genuine Apostolic teaching is that Christ died to save us not from God, but rather from the separation from God we had imposed on ourselves.

God was always there, loving and merciful, and just like the rays of the sun He never withdrew that love, it’s just that our vision had become obscured. When we chose to cut ourselves off from the only source of life the only logical result was we died. God did not do that to us. Christ came to restore the broken image and heal the chasm between God and man by uniting our fallen nature to the divine and destroying the power of sin and death.

Are you separating Jesus into two person?

Not at all. I simply recognize the purpose of His humanity, the incarnation. He came to die and die for a purpose.

So God is bound by necessity to punish sin, an impersonal necessity He has no power over? That is a characteristically pagan conception of God. The Greek gods were bound by necessity as well. They were part of creation just like humans.

As to being bound by justice. God is not just in the sense you ascribe to Him. Justice does not forgive, it demands retribution. God is not just in the juridical sense of the term. God’s justice is His goodness because He gives His love and mercy equally to all. He is just because He loves us all exactly the same.

Yours in Christ
Joe

OK, JD, good luck with all this then.

 

[moondweller]

What is grace precisely? Is grace something that God created?

If you can’t understand the purpose of the cross, you won’t ever grasp Divine “grace.” To you it’s just all “pagan.”

 

[josephdaniel29]

OK, JD, good luck with all this then.

Thanks.

 

[josephdaniel29]

If you can’t understand the purpose of the cross, you won’t ever grasp Divine “grace.” To you it’s just all “pagan.”

My friend, methinks you’re the one who doesn’t understand the purpose of the cross because, just like your Protestant co-religionists you have divorced Holy Scripture from the Apostolic Tradition it was compiled from. Of course my opinion doesn’t matter that much (except in my own mind ).

With love in Christ
Joe

 

[moondweller]

My friend, methinks you’re the one who doesn’t understand the purpose of the cross because, just like your Protestant co-religionists you have divorced Holy Scripture from the Apostolic Tradition it was compiled from. Of course my opinion doesn’t matter that much (except in my own mind ).

With love in Christ
Joe

If the official teaching of Rome is that it considers the forensic nature of Divine forgiveness toward sinners through faith in Jesus Christ to be “pagan,” then “God help the Catholic.” If there’s a “mortal” sin, then this is it.

 

[josephdaniel29]

If the official teaching of Rome is that it considers the forensic nature of Divine forgiveness toward sinners through faith in Jesus Christ to be “pagan,” then “God help the Catholic.” If there’s a “mortal” sin, then this is it.

I can’t speak for the Catholics my friend as I am not one of them.

In Christ
Joe

 

[moondweller]

I can’t speak for the Catholics my friend as I am not one of them.

In Christ
Joe

If it’s the official teaching of the Eastern church, then God help the “Orthodox.”