What is Scrupulosity and how do you prevent it?

[Irishgal49]

Thanks for the explanation and real life examples, SuperLuigi. That helps me get a better picture of it. To me, scrupulosity almost sounds like a type of bondage brought on by well-meaning people who can get caught up in all the rules and regulations while trying to do the right thing but are challenged by how to sort things out, such as whether a certain sin is mortal or venial. In other words, discernment issues. I can see how this could potentially happen.

It can also be the result of a mental illness, especially OCD. I have it and I have left the faith as a result. It can lead to severe anxiety, panic attacks, depression, suicidal thoughts, and deep self-hatred. I have worked with several priests on this and have not been able to resolve it. In the interest of my mental health I left. They say you really need direction from a priest. Sometimes they aren’t experienced with this–so see if you can find one that is. It’s a horrible thing to suffer with.

 

[Tommy999]

It can also be the result of a mental illness, especially OCD. I have it and I have left the faith as a result. It can lead to severe anxiety, panic attacks, depression, suicidal thoughts, and deep self-hatred. I have worked with several priests on this and have not been able to resolve it. In the interest of my mental health I left. They say you really need direction from a priest. Sometimes they aren’t experienced with this–so see if you can find one that is. It’s a horrible thing to suffer with.

Hi Irishgal,
I have a brother who is bi-polar and who refuses treatment. Although I realize OCD is different than that, at least it sounds like you have been seeking help and I applaud you for it. Sometimes people may think an illness is something that can be controlled through self-discipline or other approaches, but an illness is a lot more complicated than that and there no easy answers sometimes. You are in my thoughts and prayers. You sound like a nice person who loves God and has served Him a lot in your life. I pray that the Lord surrounds you in His love and that He be your comfort now and always and I pray that you find someone who can and will help you. Please don’t give up. You are a valuable child of God and are special to Him. I believe that with all my heart.

 

[Irishgal49]

Hi Irishgal,
I have a brother who is bi-polar and who refuses treatment. Although I realize OCD is different than that, at least it sounds like you have been seeking help and I applaud you for it. Sometimes people may think an illness is something that can be controlled through self-discipline or other approaches, but an illness is a lot more complicated than that and there no easy answers sometimes. You are in my thoughts and prayers. You sound like a nice person who loves God and has served Him a lot in your life. I pray that the Lord surrounds you in His love and that He be your comfort now and always and I pray that you find someone who can and will help you. Please don’t give up. You are a valuable child of God and are special to Him. I believe that with all my heart.

I pray for your brother. The thing about bipolar disorder is that it comes and goes so you think you can handle it and you’re OK. Bipolar disorder is totally destructive to relationships. A lot of people don’t want it to be official the diagnosis of mental illness. In our society there is still such a stigma. It is getting better but there are still a lot of people who think being mentally ill is something to be ashamed of and avoid you. Your local Catholic Charities can help and/or your county community mental health.

My prayers are with him and all of you who love him.

 

[Tommy999]

I pray for your brother. The thing about bipolar disorder is that it comes and goes so you think you can handle it and you’re OK. Bipolar disorder is totally destructive to relationships. A lot of people don’t want it to be official the diagnosis of mental illness. In our society there is still such a stigma. It is getting better but there are still a lot of people who think being mentally ill is something to be ashamed of and avoid you. Your local Catholic Charities can help and/or your county community mental health.

My prayers are with him and all of you who love him.

Thanks for the prayers for my brother, Irishgal49. I can tell you are a giving person by virtue of the fact that you volunteered to pray for him without even knowing him. May the Lord bless you and your giving heart.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Tommy,

A priest can pick up right away if a penitent is being scrupulous and gives them guidance.

I went to confession after my mother died and I told the priest I didn’t call my mother enough. He told me everybody says things like this. And I waited for absolution, and waited more, and then realized I didn’t sin.

He is the one who said he would give his car away if someone could confess a sin to him he had never heard.

Another time I found an unapproved book written by a mystic in the Balkans…as usual, I read some passes that were true found in other sources that were approved. There were other parts. So I talked to him about those other parts in the confessional and he dismissed them. He also used to be a teacher of priests, a Sepulcian.

Well, I went home and then some things came back and scared me. So I called him up on the phone as he was thorough in the confessional, told the book gave me scruples, and that is when he said to me, ‘Did you know that scruples is the first step into insanity?!’

Boy that really knocked the fears out of me real quick.

A priest studies penances for confession. I went to a Franciscan retreat and the master there shared with us his conviction that he thought St. Francis of Assisi was actually suffering from post traumatic stress syndrome. I had studied the 12 steps and heard the actual historical background of Francis, more details about his life before his conversion.

The priest said Francis and his associates went to war against Perugia which was of the Orthodox, Holy Roman Empire, and there was a lot of killing between the two towns…they can see each other from the hills as they are only about 22 miles apart. To prepare for these battles, Francis like others, slaughtered pigs to get experience and hardness of heart. Later Francis said after his conversion, he had 4 Lents. What is meant by that, is if someone murders someone else, the penance for this sin is to do a 40 day Lent.

You can get a penance that is an Pater, Ave, and Gloria…meaning an Our Father, a Hail Mary, and a Glory Be. Or they will instruct you to read and reflect on a passage of Scripture, or if someone sits because they are too self-absorbed, are asked to do a good deed for the injured party.

Virtue is found in moderation, and we have to always study our faith and practice, learn about the lives of the saints, how they sinned and how they overcame big sins and small, bad habits that led them to sin. Monthly confession is helpful and the priest comes to recognize your voice and personal issues, habitual sins, and becomes more adept in directing you when he thinks you are being too hard on yourself or are scrupulous, or where you need more balance and new direction in your life.

But the bottom line is that God made all things good, except sin. What is the limits for one person, like they can handle only 1 drink another can drink 6 and not get drunk.

To avoid scrupulosity is about taking the way of moderation and finding out your limits. Then what you gain is the gift of Wisdom, knowing yourself. There are many spiritual books out there on gaining wisdom and virtue.

o much we come to find out who we are not and Who Christ is, as the saints say.

 

[Tommy999]

Hi Kathleen Gee,
Thanks for your insights. Perhaps you can refresh my memory. Did your priest wind up keeping the car or giving it away? It sounds like he kept it because he had heard everythign before in confession.

I guess that’s good in a way, because I think Satan sometimes cons people into believing nobody has ever sinned as badly as they have, when in reality that is not usually the case (unless the penitent is a serial killer or something).

 

[KathleenGee]

Fr kept the car. We had this freeway right close to the church with an unusual name that he also shared, and would tell us it was named after him. He used to come to the parish when I was in grade school to preach. And I was in the nursing home where he lived until he died.

I have to tell you this. He was always making jokes about this parish that would always his get car offers. This church has the meditations of the rosary on the windows. Then when JPII brought out a new set of mysteries for the rosary, we now had 4 mysteries…joyful, sorrowful, glorious…and now luminous mysteries…which are: Christ’s baptism at the River Jordan, His first miracle at Cana, the third is the sermon on the mount, the fourth is the Transfiguration of Our Lord before His Passion, and finally the Institution of the Eucharist.

Well there was no place to paint the visuals…but the ceiling. And the parish has people most devout and proper. So he had to tell me this joke before he died.

He said one day he came into this parish church and saw this man laying on the floor looking up at the ceiling. Fr was very upset. He ran over to him asking if he needed help. The man said, ‘No, I am praying’.

Priests tell me that when they hear confessions, the Lord impresses on them their own sinfulness.

They like hearing confessions better than performing marriages.(In the Catholic wedding, the couple marry themselves and the priest acts as witness.) Priests also like funerals because we offer up our deaths for our loved ones. My pastor told me one mother had 12 kids and all of them left the Church. When she died, they all returned. They love hearing how the person had lived their life in the Lord, the people they had served, etc.

Since I am discussing priests now, so many react to people being so concerned about them not being married, they say, ‘when the day is done, I want to be alone’…another, ‘I crash and go to sleep’.

Also when I was attending RCIA, there was this couple. The Lutheran wife was on fire and wanted to be Catholic NOW. Her husband was still an Episcopalian and pretty happy where he was. But he was coming in with her. Well, when it came time to the topic of confession, the discussion came up about going to confession to our pastor, Fr Bill, who has a very easy way of relating to people, just part of people, an ordinary guy. When he mentioned to the couple about going to confession to him, the couple just gave him this look, like,’ just little you?’ ‘We go to you to confess our sins?’

It was a testy moment.

I told them when you go in, it is hard and I am always embarrassed. I am embarrassed to tell things to my pastor as he sees my good side but he doesn’t know my dark side. I have to force myself to forget about Fr Bill and now focus on the Lord and speak to Him about my bad deeds. As I open up, I no longer am concerned about good ol Fr Bill but am in the Lord’s presence and tell the Lord all my wrongs. Then when Fr gives absolution, I truly experience the Lord’s anointing coming down on me, and it is a most profound sense of healing. Then when I go out, everything is fine, Fr Bill is fine, the world is in perfect balance and seems to smile back at me.

some time later I saw the couple after RCIA and they looked fine and I asked them how it was going to confession…and all was fine. They got it.

 

[lutheran_farmer]

Before I was Catholic, I had the opposite problem. I wondered if God really did forgive my sins during the Lutheran corporate confession. As an LCMS Lutheran, I feared taking communion sometimes because while I thought I had forgiven someone, I wondered if I really had. What about when my child was fussing or we were running late and weren’t focused during the confession? I had more trouble with doubts as a Lutheran. That all went away when I became Catholic. Reconciliation is a time for you to focus on your sins and take the time to speak to God about them privately (through the grace of the priest). I know God has forgiven my sins and can rest easy. The grace is real and you walk out of reconciliation much happier. It’s hard to go in, but so nice coming out.

 

[frobert]

Before joining CAF I had never heard of the term ‘scupulosity’ but have heard it mentioned several times on this forum and wanted to have a better understanding of the term. My impression is that it is a combination of OCD tendencies with a dash of legalistic agonizing over one’s moral actions, but I may be wrong on that.

Questions:

1. Can someone clarify what Scupulosity is and provide a few examples of it?

I think Karen Horney, while not directly referring to scrupulosity, provides the best psychological origin for it. It can be best described as “tyranny of the shoulds” which is one of the reasons that more Catholics suffer from scrupulosity than other Christians

As you read read replace “neurotic” with “scrupulous.”

According to Horney

…we can have two views of our self: the “real self” and the “ideal self”.

The real self is who and what we actually are. The ideal self is the type of person we feel that we should be.

The real self has the potential for growth, happiness, will power, realization of gifts, etc., but it also has deficiencies. The ideal self is used as a model to assist the real self in developing its potential and achieving self-actualization. (Engler 125) But it is important to know the differences between our ideal and real self.

The neurotic (scrupulous) person’s self is split between an idealized self and a real self. As a result, neurotic (scrupulous) individuals feel that they somehow do not live up to the ideal self. They feel that there is a flaw somewhere in comparison to what they “should” be.

The goals set out by the neurotic are not realistic, or indeed possible. The real self then degenerates into a “despised self”, and the neurotic (scrupulous) person assumes that this is the “true” self. Thus, the neurotic is like a clock’s pendulum, oscillating between a fallacious “perfection” and a manifestation of self-hate.

Horney referred to this phenomenon as the “tyranny of the shoulds” and the neurotic’s hopeless “search for glory”.[15] She concluded that these ingrained traits of the psyche forever prevent an individual’s potential from being actualized unless the cycle of neurosis is somehow broken, through treatment.

Source

For a self-help program the “Addictive Voice Recognition Technique” (AVRT) seems to help some scrupulosity sufferers. AVRT was developed for addictions so you need to make some changes as you go through it.

 

[KathleenGee]

Frobert, excellent post.

I also have found scrupulosity coming when people delve into spiritual applications that do not fit their lifestyle…like people going overboard in reading the spirituality of monasteries…

How many housewives…in the past when most stayed home…read wonderful saints’ lives and then wanted to live out that kind of spirituality in their family and the priests would have to guide them back to one that is do-able. You get too high expectations.

You mention ‘neurotic’. That was my impression of the American Catholic Church in some places that turned in on itself, not having a set evangelical purpose, some confusion, when the secular world began to become more overwhelming through the media, etc. beginning in the late 60’s. I had worked with SE Italians over seas and the big lesson in it for me was how wholesome they were and if my son wanted to become a priest, I would hope he would join one wholesome. They put alot of emphasis on community and great emotional support and they knew each other since they were 8 or 9. I mean, I saw a tribute to the priest I worked with and it was surprising to see him in a cassock when he appeared about 12 years old. He told me he wanted always to be a priest. Their interaction with each other around me was so genuine with out the duplicity a bureacratic culture comes into the Church.

We don’t realize what we do to fortify ourselves against secular spirits and we don’t realize how bureaucratic we really are in how we relate to one another as Church. We need models. We have African priests, but I note after awhile, they too, tend to absorb and then relate more to some degree, but not a whole lot, a more bureaucratic way of relating.

I don’t know how one would overcome but to spend more time before the Blessed Sacrament, simplify your life, be family to everyone. Pope Francis is addressing it all the time. Some times he talks too much off the cuff and it then it causes confusion and controversy and he is highly educated.

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks for the great info, Frobert. I now feel like I have a lot better understanding of it and its causes. Thanks again, and you too, KathleenGee.

 

[frobert]

Frobert, excellent post.

I also have found scrupulosity coming when people delve into spiritual applications that do not fit their lifestyle…like people going overboard in reading the spirituality of monasteries…

How many housewives…in the past when most stayed home…read wonderful saints’ lives and then wanted to live out that kind of spirituality in their family and the priests would have to guide them back to one that is do-able. You get too high expectations.

You mention ‘neurotic’. That was my impression of the American Catholic Church in some places that turned in on itself, not having a set evangelical purpose, some confusion, when the secular world began to become more overwhelming through the media, etc. beginning in the late 60’s. I had worked with SE Italians over seas and the big lesson in it for me was how wholesome they were and if my son wanted to become a priest, I would hope he would join one wholesome. They put alot of emphasis on community and great emotional support and they knew each other since they were 8 or 9. I mean, I saw a tribute to the priest I worked with and it was surprising to see him in a cassock when he appeared about 12 years old. He told me he wanted always to be a priest. Their interaction with each other around me was so genuine with out the duplicity a bureacratic culture comes into the Church.

We don’t realize what we do to fortify ourselves against secular spirits and we don’t realize how bureaucratic we really are in how we relate to one another as Church. We need models. We have African priests, but I note after awhile, they too, tend to absorb and then relate more to some degree, but not a whole lot, a more bureaucratic way of relating.

I don’t know how one would overcome but to spend more time before the Blessed Sacrament, simplify your life, be family to everyone. Pope Francis is addressing it all the time. Some times he talks too much off the cuff and it then it causes confusion and controversy and he is highly educated.

Thank you for sharing. I agree that scrupulosity is an overreach. Karen Horney referred to it as the impossible “search for glory,” which was my problem.

I like the emphasis on community and emotional support, you spoke of, which sometimes can be found on CAF.

History has shown that religions have always had to accommodate the culture they are in, those that are unable will be ok until the second religiosity goes mainstream. I think Christian religions have a good chance to survive but time will tell.

I love your prescription, spend time with Jesus, simplify and be family to everyone.

 

[frobert]

Thanks for the great info, Frobert. I now feel like I have a lot better understanding of it and its causes. Thanks again, and you too, KathleenGee.

Tommy,

I am so glad that you found my post and those of Kathleen helpful.

 

[Irishgal49]

I think Karen Horney, while not directly referring to scrupulosity, provides the best psychological origin for it. It can be best described as “tyranny of the shoulds” which is one of the reasons that more Catholics suffer from scrupulosity than other Christians

As you read read replace “neurotic” with “scrupulous.”

According to Horney

Source

For a self-help program the “Addictive Voice Recognition Technique” (AVRT) seems to help some scrupulosity sufferers. AVRT was developed for addictions so you need to make some changes as you go through it.

This is the best description I have heard of what I endured. I haven’t had issues since leaving the RCC.

 

[KathleenGee]

American Catholics, in their busy lives, and not spending time before Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament where we unite our lives with Him…have lost the sense of God’s profound love for them.

He awaits us.

We have the physical presence of Our Lord in the tabernacle, and yet so few make time…ot the chapels and church are closed because of the vandals. I would walk home by St. Rita’s Church and would stop in to visit. I had a classmate at Catholic school, and would see her in there praying when other kids were playing.

We need more of God’s love for us, we need to recognize it every day, slow down and be with Him, so He can truly take care of us.

I used to live in a parish that had a Carmelite monastery in it. The parish and the neighborhood surrounding the monastery had so much sense of peace, sense of being in the stillpoint.

We don’t need activities to live, we need to be in the stillpoint of the Lord…and a confessor, I would say, or a good friend full of wisdom who takes burdens off of us…Jesus should be our Best Friend.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Tommy, for all your kind references to me.

BTW, I cannot find your thread on Mary and your question about whether or not Catholics put Mary above Christ…and I had some kind of mental block.

It came back and I think people who are concerned about us worshipping Mary…without knowing what we believe, reflect a little scrupulosity.

Anyway, what came back to me…was watching a program on EWTN about Juniper Serra, and the work for canonization of his cause. He built a church in his mission here in America, now I forget the saint’s name of the church.

The churches are the Lord’s and He is the living center of them. But individual churches are named after saints who become patron of the churches. I grew up in the inner city, one I went to parochial school at that parish and the one closest to us, St Rita’s, was an Italian immigrant church. Our faith in the Lord is further entrusted to the prayers of the particular saint. So the church has the patron on top of the church to name it, but not to take away from the Lord.

You visited a shrine dedicated to Mary the Immaculate Conception, and it was placed on the top of the hill vs a sign on top of a church showing the designation of the dedication for patronage. I think that could be the explanation of the placement of the shrine…and looking at the image against the sky, it really demonstrates the intercession and magnifying of Mary’s prayers for us to heaven.

I think scruples can be associated with fears.

Anyway, thanks for all your acknowledgement.

 

[Tommy999]

You’re welcome, KathleenGee. The thread that you referenced with my question about Mary is forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=889803&page=8.

There’s something about people like you that I like very much – your warm and godly spirit, the way in which you patiently explain Catholic beliefs to me when I am confused. Even if we don’t agree 100% on everything, you still have my unwavering respect and admiration. I can tell Christ abides in your heart in a big way. I tip my hat you and wish you all the best:tiphat:

 

[KathleenGee]

God bless you, Tommy.

I just left this horrendous anti -Catholic thread, where our church was called harlot, etc. and I was a ‘bad person’ for defending it. I tried very hard to reason with them…but they would not even listen. So that was that.

You are a breath of fresh air. Thanks for the link. Also I can sense what you say when you hear your preacher speak and manifest to you Our Lord.

My grandmother and I Iiked Billy Graham and he had alot of integrity…very sobering to listen to him, and help cut the cord with the world that always tends to slip in a little to your psyche … he also stopped at worship, allowing people to make their choice and never denigrating any other faith tradition.

I imagine your pastor must speak in the absolutes of God vs. this relativism that also seems to slip into our psyche…the ‘tsunami’ of the world.

 

[Tommy999]

God bless you, Tommy.

I just left this horrendous anti -Catholic thread, where our church was called harlot, etc. and I was a ‘bad person’ for defending it. I tried very hard to reason with them…but they would not even listen. So that was that.

You are a breath of fresh air. Thanks for the link. Also I can sense what you say when you hear your preacher speak and manifest to you Our Lord.

My grandmother and I Iiked Billy Graham and he had alot of integrity…very sobering to listen to him, and help cut the cord with the world that always tends to slip in a little to your psyche … he also stopped at worship, allowing people to make their choice and never denigrating any other faith tradition.

I imagine your pastor must speak in the absolutes of God vs. this relativism that also seems to slip into our psyche…the ‘tsunami’ of the world.

Funny that you mentioned Billy Graham, Kathleen. I was initially drawn to God after watching one of his crusades. I actually went down to the front and prayed the Sinner’s Prayer and began my walk with Christ at that time and have been growing ever since, little by little, and will hopefully continue to mature as a Christian until I die.

By the way, I just started a post called forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12136628#post12136628 that I would be honored if you could post on it because I bet you could help answer it. It’s about Catholic religious orders.