What is so objectionable about Limbo?

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Just to add to what GregoryI so eloquently and factually stated:

Quite simply, it is through Baptism (and ONLY Baptism) that we are cleansed of Original Sin. Yet the Catholic Church recognizes ONE Baptism for the forgiveness of sin-- this is why we only have to be baptized once, and why baptized converts from other Christian faiths need not repeat Baptism, for they have been cleansed of the stain of original Sin.

Yet, Baptism alone isn’t the ONLY answer. We must also REPENT, and BELIEVE. This is what makes faith and the Sacraments and the Gospels so important for those who have attained the Age of Reason.

That’s all I’ll say for now on this.

God bless.

In Christ,

~Spoken4
 
Snugglebugmom:

A CHild born in Mortal Sin does not deserve heaven. TO believe they do is the Heresy of Pelagius. If infants DO get to heaven, they have to receive sanctifying grace. Problem is, the church does not acknowledge any other means to receive grace than baptism.
Pelagius claimed that Original sin did not exist. His heresy was far more complicated than that. . He said that Adam was merely a “bad example” & Christ was merely a “good example” & that we must choose who to follow. He went on to say that we have full control, and thus full responsibility, for obeying the Gospel WITHOUT divine assistance.

As you well know, the Baptism of Desire & the Baptism of Blood are also viable ways to cleanse our souls from the taint of Original Sin.
In cases of miscarriage the DESIRE & plans of the parents to Baptize the child after birth suffices.

However, going by your premise (which btw., you’ve posted all over these boards) almost 50 MILLION children who have died at the hands of abortionists “don’t deserve heaven”. The CHURCH teaches us that we just don’t know what happens to these babies & we entrust them to our Merciful God. The Church also teaches that I am free to believe that they are in Heaven.
 
After reading all of Gregory I’s posts in this thread & others, I’d just like for you to see how closely his beliefs follow those of the excommunicated priest Father Leonard Feeney:

athanasiuscm.blogspot.com/2010/04/lunacy-of-feenyism-part-1.html

And those of the CULT of the Most Holy Family Monastery & the dimond brothers:

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/BenedictXVI_new_limbo_heresy.html

An excerpt:
"By now many of you have heard that, on Friday April 20, Benedict XVI approved the release of a new document on limbo. According to news reports, this document teaches that limbo (the highest part of Hell where those who die in original sin only go) doesn’t exist. It concludes, therefore, that unbaptized infants go to Heaven. This document had been in the works for a long time; Benedict XVI officially approved its release on Friday. The implications of this blatantly heretical document are very significant, as I will discuss.

Sound familiar??

Just want all to know that I’m a Traditional Catholic & attend the TLM. exclusively…still, I am faithful to the Pope & hate it that posters like this one claim to be Traditional Catholics, for they are not. They give us all a bad name.
 
What you are missing, regarding the “virtuous pagans”, is the fact that “ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God”. (Romans 3:23)

Perhaps an infant, who has died before the Age of Reason (knowing right from wrong) or even before taking that first breath, could be cleared of conscious sin and thus enter into Limbo (my assessment of the situation; perhaps someone can correct me or elaborate further). But an adult would have surely sinned in some way-- whether venially or mortally, through commission or omission-- and thus need to receive God’s Forgiveness. None of us are perfect; we all need forgiveness.

In Christ,

~Spoken4
And where the opposing view comes in is in the Judgement of All people. The judgment of God in this sense is the final act whereby he settles forever the destiny of the free creature — either to eternal punishment in hell expiation in purgatory or to eternal reward in heaven. The basis of God’s judgment is faith and good works or charity. Those who believe and live their faith accordingly will be saved; those who believe but do not love God and neighbor will be condemned; those who refuse to believe that Jesus is the Christ and those who, not having heard about Christ, refuse the grace of God that is given them (1 Tim 2:4), will also be lost.

When the Creed says that Jesus will judge “the living and the dead”, it means that he will judge all men — past, present and future. No person will escape his judgment. So we know that the unbaptised babies who died prior to sacramental baptism will be judged. What we dont know is the final outcome of that judgement. Only GOD Knows. So to presuppose what GOD will judge as a final disposition of any soul other than ones own is uncharitable IMO. It remains speculation. No one can say definitively. Hense the Theological Theories , Limbo among them.
 
OK Cradle Cath, I do not appreciate slander.

Everything I have said has been quoted from church approved theologians and from the dogmas of the church.

I repeat, that it is de fide, of faith, that NO ONE born of man has any claim on heaven by right; we are all JUSTLY deserving of the punishment of hell.

Why? because we are all born in original sin, and we all inherit the guilt of adams sin, and this guilt has a personal character. This is EXPLICITLY taught by the council of trent.

Council of Trent: “If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted, let him be anathema.” (Session Five)

Council of Trent: “If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam – which in its origin is one, and being transfused **into all **by propagation, **is in each one as his own **– is taken away by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.” (Session Five)

Council of Trent: “If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death and the punishments of the body into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema.”

“As to infant baptism Pelagius granted that it ought to be administered in the same form as in the case of adults, not in order to cleanse the children from a real original guilt, but to secure to them entrance into the ‘kingdom of God’.” (Pelagius and Pelagianism) Catechism of Trent.

Now, I know that Limbo is considered" speculation" but it is speculation built upon the dogmas of the faith, and is totally justifiable and conformable to Catholic faith. I know this because the Church has held it as its “common doctrine” since the 13th century.

Compare me to Father Feeney all you want. I make no comparison to his doctrine.

I believe in Baptism of desire, which has been always expressed by the Church as an explicit desire for Baptism.

"This translation ( to the state of grace ) after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or the vowed intention to receive it.

This is a correct translation of the original Latin, " aut eius voto". If the Council intended to say " or desire" it would have written, " aut eius desiderio."
Session 6, Chapter VI, Decree Concerning Justification ( January 13, 1547):

" Now, they are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing, they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God and His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and destination, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;** finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God."**

Session 7, Canon 4 of the Sacraments in General from the Decree Concerning the
Sacraments ( March 3, 1547 ):
" Can.4 " If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema."

Notice, faith as stated formerly and desire as stated lately are necessary for justification, not only desire and not only faith.

It is necessary to manifest Catholic faith **and a desire **to receive the sacraments in order to be justified. And this desire must have the character of a solemn vow to receive them.

The church does not teach an implicit desire for baptism. This is speculation. Find a single document that says there is such a thing as an IMPLICIT desire for baptism in the invincibley ignorant. No where do you see that there is any salvation outside the Church?

THIS IS THE FAITH OF THE CHURCH. All Catholics are bound to assent to the faith as expressed by the council of trent. Why? Because it is dogmatic and infallible!

Perhaps the squeamish do not care for it, but it is in line with the explicit dogmas of Trent.

I do not Bleieve the document issued by Pope benedict is infallible, BUt I also do not believe it is heretical.

I do believe it is unduly concerned with an option to limbo, but I do not question our Holy Fathers wisdom.

For myself, I refer to the Faith once delivered to the saints to inform my conscience. THis faith is one at all times and places, and is therefore relevant whether at trent or Vatican I. Or Vatican II, although it issued no dogmas. THat’s why I do not refer to it for dogmatic teaching.
 
:mad:

What am I CradleCath, a Fennyite or a Pelagian?🤷
lol. THe two are diametrically opposed and I accept neither: I accept the the teaching of the Church.😃
 
Gregory,

There isn’t anything inherently *objectionable *about Limbo. It simply isn’t doctrinal.
 
The Church has declared limbo as its common doctrine.

The only speculative parts of limbo is what KIND of after life awaits the unpatized child. ALthough, it is de fide that they do not enjoy the beatific vision.

Cradlecath:

Exactly, the only BAPPTISM of desire is an explicit desire for baptism. People who are ignorant do not have that, and ignorance is a sin.

" That whatever is done through ignorance must not be considered a sin, is hereby condemned as error."
Pope Innocent II

" He who is of God hears the words of God.Therefore, you hear them not , because you are not of God."

St. John 8:47

" Innumerable souls are lost through ignorance of religion, the source of every other calamity."
Saint Frances Xavier Cabrini

" Before their Baptism, certain Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple: that God did not appear merciful, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese people before, especially that those who had not worshipped God were doomed to everlasting Hell. They grieve over the fate of their departed children, parents, and relatives; so they ask if there is any way to free them by prayer from the eternal misery. And I am obligated to answer: there is absolutely none."

Saint Francis Xavier
 
**The Church has declared limbo as its common doctrine.**The only speculative parts of limbo is what KIND of after life awaits the unpatized child. ALthough, it is de fide that they do not enjoy the beatific vision.

Cradlecath:

Exactly, the only BAPPTISM of desire is an explicit desire for baptism. People who are ignorant do not have that, and ignorance is a sin.

" That whatever is done through ignorance must not be considered a sin, is hereby condemned as error."
Pope Innocent II

" He who is of God hears the words of God.Therefore, you hear them not , because you are not of God."

St. John 8:47

" Innumerable souls are lost through ignorance of religion, the source of every other calamity."
Saint Frances Xavier Cabrini

" Before their Baptism, certain Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple: that God did not appear merciful, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese people before, especially that those who had not worshipped God were doomed to everlasting Hell. They grieve over the fate of their departed children, parents, and relatives; so they ask if there is any way to free them by prayer from the eternal misery. And I am obligated to answer: there is absolutely none."

Saint Francis Xavier
That is simply UNTRUE. Limbo for Infants has NEVER been a Church doctrine. Its getting irritating and boring when you keep repeating something blatantly untrue.
Catholics are obliged to believe all doctrine (infallible and non-infallible) and if Limbo was a Church doctrine we would be obliged to accept it. It is not and never has been a doctrine of the Church and Catholics do not have to accept it. We are free to believe it or not believe it.
 
The netherworld of limbo, long speculated in Roman Catholic teaching as the destination of babies who die unbaptized, has been replaced with the “prayerful hope” that they reach heaven. Pope Benedict XVI signed a theological report, years in the making, that effectively demoted limbo, a place neither in heaven nor in hell, where unbaptized babies would not be in communion with God but would nonetheless enjoy eternal happiness. Many in the church felt the idea, never formally a part of church doctrine, was outdated and caused undue worry for parents
 
Ok, I guess I will have to provide authentic documentation again. 🙂

-THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS
WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED-

"Moreover, the notion that infants who die without Baptism are deprived of the beatific vision, which has for so long been regarded as the common doctrine of the Church, gives rise to numerous pastoral problems, so much so that many pastors of souls have asked for a deeper reflection on the ways of salvation. "

"20. So great was Augustine’s authority in the West, however, that the Latin Fathers (e.g., Jerome, Fulgentius, Avitus of Vienne, and Gregory the Great) did adopt his opinion. **Gregory the Great asserts **that God condemns even those with only original sin on their souls; even infants who have never sinned by their own will must go to “everlasting torments”. He cites Job 14:4-5 (LXX), John 3:5, and Ephesians 2:3 on our condition at birth as “children of wrath”.[42]

Wow, a pope taught infant damnation!

“22. In the developments of medieval doctrine, the loss of the Beatific Vision (poena damni) was understood to be the proper punishment for original sin, whereas the “torments of perpetual hell” constituted the punishment for mortal sins actually committed.[47] In the Middle Ages, the ecclesiastical magisterium affirmed more than once that those “who die in mortal sin” and those who die “with original sin only” receive “different punishments”.[48]”

"24. The theologians who taught, in one form or another, that unbaptised children are deprived of the vision of God generally held at the same time a double affirmation: (a) God wills that everyone be saved, and (b) ***God, who wills that all be saved, wills equally the dispensations and the means that he himself has established for this salvation and that he has made known to us by his revelation. ***The second affirmation, of itself, does not exclude other dispositions of the divine economy (as is clear, for example, in the witness of the Holy Innocents). As for the expression “Limbo of Infants”, it was forged at the turn of the 12th-13th century to name the “resting place” of such infants (the “border” of the infernal region).

"Together with Catholic theologians of the Augustinian school, the Jansenists vigorously opposed the theory of Limbo. **During this period the popes (Paul III, Benedict XIV, Clement XIII)**52] **defended the right of Catholics to teach Augustine’s stern view that infants dying with original sin alone are damned and punished with the perpetual torment of the fire of hell, though with the “mildest pain” (Augustine) compared with what was suffered by adults who were punished for their mortal sins. **

" The study of history shows an evolution and a development of Catholic teaching concerning the destiny of infants who die without Baptism. This progress engages some foundational doctrinal principles which remain permanent, and some secondary elements of unequal value. In effect, revelation does not communicate directly in an explicit fashion knowledge of God’s plan for unbaptised children, but it enlightens the Church regarding the principles of faith which must guide her thought and her practice. A theological reading of the history of Catholic teaching up to Vatican II shows in particular that three main affirmations which belong to the faith of the Church appear at the core of the problem of the fate of unbaptised infants. (i) God wants all human beings to be saved. (ii) This salvation is given only through participation in Christ’s paschal mystery, that is, through Baptism for the forgiveness of sins, either sacramental or in some other way. Human beings, including infants, cannot be saved apart from the grace of Christ poured out by the Holy Spirit. (iii) Infants will not enter the Kingdom of God without being freed from original sin by redemptive grace."

It has been shown that the constant teaching of popes and approved theologians since the time of Augustine and onward, that Unbaptized children do not have the beatific Vision.

But I will admit:

In summary: the affirmation that infants who die without Baptism suffer the privation of the beatific vision has long been the common doctrine of the Church, which must be distinguished from the faith of the Church. As for the theory that the privation of the beatific vision is their sole punishment, to the exclusion of any other pain, this is a theological opinion, despite its long acceptance in the West. The particular theological thesis concerning a “natural happiness” sometimes ascribed to these infants likewise constitutes a theological opinion.

So, it is not mere OPINION that unbaptized children suffer the pain of loss of the Beatific vision, in fact, it’s considered a common doctrine of the church, though different from the faith of the church.
The theory part comes into play as to whether this is the ONLY pain they suffer (Which implies they may suffer more, not less!). And whether or not they have a natural happiness (Which means they could suffer from not being in God’s presence.)

BUT, Like I said, I hold to Limbo because it is the clearest and most consistent doctrine taught by the church, and is firmly built on Catholic Dogma. I really don’t see how it could be toppled, honestly.

And if it is getting old hearing me state the Churches teaching on a topic, it is getting old being contradicted by those who have not researched the issue, and SOME who typically reject the fundamental dogmas upon which Limbo is built.
 
Rubenzillo, I think the undue worry of the parents was caused by human weakness and th e inability to accept the just judgements of GOd, which is understandable in the face of something as tragic as losing an unbaptized infant.

But the Teaching that those who die in original sin alone do not see God is de fide. It is of faith. like I asked earlier, do you know of anyone besides:

1.Infants
2.Mentally Handicapped
3.“Virtuous” Pagans

That are capable of dying in mortal sin alone? I don’t; which means one, if not all, of these groups if they die will be destined to be without the vision of God.

This is Catholic Dogma.
 
Ok, I guess I will have to provide authentic documentation again. 🙂

-THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS
WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED-

"Moreover, the notion that infants who die without Baptism are deprived of the beatific vision, which has for so long been regarded as the common doctrine of the Church, gives rise to numerous pastoral problems, so much so that many pastors of souls have asked for a deeper reflection on the ways of salvation. "

"20. So great was Augustine’s authority in the West, however, that the Latin Fathers (e.g., Jerome, Fulgentius, Avitus of Vienne, and Gregory the Great) did adopt his opinion. **Gregory the Great asserts **that God condemns even those with only original sin on their souls; even infants who have never sinned by their own will must go to “everlasting torments”. He cites Job 14:4-5 (LXX), John 3:5, and Ephesians 2:3 on our condition at birth as “children of wrath”.[42]

Wow, a pope taught infant damnation!

“22. In the developments of medieval doctrine, the loss of the Beatific Vision (poena damni) was understood to be the proper punishment for original sin, whereas the “torments of perpetual hell” constituted the punishment for mortal sins actually committed.[47] In the Middle Ages, the ecclesiastical magisterium affirmed more than once that those “who die in mortal sin” and those who die “with original sin only” receive “different punishments”.[48]”

"24. The theologians who taught, in one form or another, that unbaptised children are deprived of the vision of God generally held at the same time a double affirmation: (a) God wills that everyone be saved, and (b) ***God, who wills that all be saved, wills equally the dispensations and the means that he himself has established for this salvation and that he has made known to us by his revelation. ***The second affirmation, of itself, does not exclude other dispositions of the divine economy (as is clear, for example, in the witness of the Holy Innocents). As for the expression “Limbo of Infants”, it was forged at the turn of the 12th-13th century to name the “resting place” of such infants (the “border” of the infernal region).

"Together with Catholic theologians of the Augustinian school, the Jansenists vigorously opposed the theory of Limbo. **During this period the popes (Paul III, Benedict XIV, Clement XIII)**52] defended the right of Catholics to teach Augustine’s stern view that infants dying with original sin alone are damned and punished with the perpetual torment of the fire of hell, though with the “mildest pain” (Augustine) compared with what was suffered by adults who were punished for their mortal sins.

" The study of history shows an evolution and a development of Catholic teaching concerning the destiny of infants who die without Baptism. This progress engages some foundational doctrinal principles which remain permanent, and some secondary elements of unequal value. In effect, revelation does not communicate directly in an explicit fashion knowledge of God’s plan for unbaptised children, but it enlightens the Church regarding the principles of faith which must guide her thought and her practice. A theological reading of the history of Catholic teaching up to Vatican II shows in particular that three main affirmations which belong to the faith of the Church appear at the core of the problem of the fate of unbaptised infants. (i) God wants all human beings to be saved. (ii) This salvation is given only through participation in Christ’s paschal mystery, that is, through Baptism for the forgiveness of sins, either sacramental or in some other way. Human beings, including infants, cannot be saved apart from the grace of Christ poured out by the Holy Spirit. (iii) Infants will not enter the Kingdom of God without being freed from original sin by redemptive grace."

It has been shown that the constant teaching of popes and approved theologians since the time of Augustine and onward, that Unbaptized children do not have the beatific Vision.

But I will admit:

In summary: the affirmation that infants who die without Baptism suffer the privation of the beatific vision has long been the common doctrine of the Church, which must be distinguished from the faith of the Church. As for the theory that the privation of the beatific vision is their sole punishment, to the exclusion of any other pain, this is a theological opinion, despite its long acceptance in the West. The particular theological thesis concerning a “natural happiness” sometimes ascribed to these infants likewise constitutes a theological opinion.

So, it is not mere OPINION that unbaptized children suffer the pain of loss of the Beatific vision, in fact, it’s considered a common doctrine of the church, though different from the faith of the church.
The theory part comes into play as to whether this is the ONLY pain they suffer (Which implies they may suffer more, not less!). And whether or not they have a natural happiness (Which means they could suffer from not being in God’s presence.)

BUT, Like I said,** I hold to Limbo because it is the clearest and most consistent doctrine taught by the church**, and is firmly built on Catholic Dogma. I really don’t see how it could be toppled, honestly.

And if it is getting old hearing me state the Churches teaching on a topic, it is getting old being contradicted by those who have not researched the issue, and SOME who typically reject the fundamental dogmas upon which Limbo is built.
That is UNTRUE.
If it were Church doctrine Catholics would be bound by it. We are not bound to believe in Limbo for Infants.
It is not and never has been a Church doctrine. It was only ever a theological hypothesis!
 
YOu are bound to believe this much:

THose who die in original sin only descend to hell to be punished with different punishments.

No, the punishment for original sin only is the loss of the beatific vision.

INFANTS that die unbaptized die in original sin only, as do the mentally handicapped and virtuous pagans,

THEREFORE…

One of these groups is definitely and infallibly going to suffer the loss of the vision of GOd, if not all.

THat is Catholic Dogma, followed up by common sense.

DO you deny that the punishment for original sin alone is loss of the beatific vision?

And, like I said, “Limbo” is the common doctrine of the church as stated by the church. THe limbo part is the theory.

THat the unbaptized that die in original sin cannot see GOd is the fact.

Is that true or not?
 
The Church says limbo is “the common doctrine” of the church, not my words, it is the church’s words.

Here is another dogma not related directly to limbo as such, but that indicates that unbaptized infants do not have the beatific vision:

Council of Trent, Session five:
  1. If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers’ wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,–whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema. For that which the apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men in whom all have sinned, is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere hath always understood it. **For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a tradition of the apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation. For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. **
Remember, he is applying the words of our Lord to INFANTS. Therefore unbaptized infants do not have the beatific vision. This whole canon is about INFANTS. And it is a dogma of the faith.

AS is the much repeated canon of the ecumenical council of florence: “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished however with disparate [disparibus] punishments.”

That unabptized infants do not have the batific vision is not the doctrine of limbo.

Limbo is the speculation on what they DO experience, not what they do not.

What they do not has been dogmatically defined.

But even the speculation of what they DO experience is built on solid catholic dogmas. It’s not just glitter and fairy dust, it’s substantial meat and potatoes.

Just for giggles, Here is also the Catechism of the council of Trent, THe Roman Catechism that was binding on every Catholic and is part of the authentic and ordinary Magisterium:The Catechism of the Council of Trent, under Pope Saint Pius V states:

" If then through the transgression of Adam, children inherit original sin, with still stronger reason can they attain through Christ our Lord grace and justice that they may reign in life. This however, cannot be effected otherwise than through baptism. Pastors therefore should inculate the absolute necessity of administering baptism to infants, and of gradually forming their minds to piety by education in the Christian religion… The faithful are earnestly to be exhorted to take care that their children be brought to the Church , as soon as it can be done with safety, to receive solemn baptism. Since infant children have no other means of salvation except baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless
dangers of death."

The church clearly teaches in its official catechism that infants do not have any means of being brought into eternal life apart from baptism. THis Catechism is part of the Ordinary Magisterium, and was in effect from the time of Trent in the 16th Century until 1992. I do not admit the truths it contains to have altered, or that the church could change its mind.

THe Catechism clearly interprets the intent of the council And if they say here that infants have no means of salvation other than baptism, then we must believe that in the Above quoted canon from trent that that is what they intended to teach, and it is apparent that they actually taught.

THat is not limbo: therefore this is not theory.
Like I said, the THEORY begins when we try to talk about what they DO experience.
 
I don’t think any else here can quite understand why you’re so committed to defending the proposition that “Limbo is doctrine” (or even “common doctrine,” whatever that is). You repeat the mantra that “it is the church’s words,” but it so clearly isn’t. Limbo is one theory that allows us to fit together several difficult soteriological strands without violating our sense of justice (i.e., our human sense of justice, which we impose upon God). That’s all it is. The Church has never taught that we are to believe in Limbo.
 
I cannot accept the ill-guided idea that God’s mercy is limited to the Sacraments, which is precisely what you are advocating, Gregory. Do we really have God in a box to know that baptism with water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the only way that we can possibly, in any circumstance, ever receive mercy and forgiveness? I assume you would say that all the pagans who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel preached to them, yet would have accepted it gladly, are in Hell right now.
 
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