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Vico
Guest
Spiritual delusion is to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid spiritually, through an idea or an experience. To avoid spiritual delusion we rely on spiritual authority.
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SunshineZA
Guest
Not necessarily, but it can happen. However, IMO spiritual delusion is much more serious. For example, I am sure, some of us have met people amongst us, who write poems etc., received, according to them, directly from the Holy Spirit. They then insist to impress others with the utmost seriousness in receiving their supposed “Devine” writings as truth. Some give orders to angels whom they know by name etc. They function ‘normally’ otherwise. I have met Charismatic Christians with these delusions.
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mardukm
Guest
I think first thing we have to do is find out exactly what “Salesian spirituality” is.
It seems to me that St. Symeon simply opposed pride in these visions, and did not oppose the visions themselves. These visions seem to be a stepping stone in the spiritual ladder.
The essence of spiritual delusion is pride - the idea that you have somehow plumbed the unsearchable ways of God.
Blessings,
Marduk
It seems to me that St. Symeon simply opposed pride in these visions, and did not oppose the visions themselves. These visions seem to be a stepping stone in the spiritual ladder.
The essence of spiritual delusion is pride - the idea that you have somehow plumbed the unsearchable ways of God.
Blessings,
Marduk
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prodromos
Guest
Vassula Ryden was divorced and living with another man when she began having these ‘revelations’ through “autowriting”, a means of ‘revelation’ unheard of in the history of the Church while it has occurred with spiritualists and mediums among the occult.
Vassula has presented herself to receive Holy Communion in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, in flagrant disobedience to the regulations of both Churches. So from the Catholic viewpoint she was living in a state of mortal sin when she began receiving these messages.
True spiritual experiences are the fruit of obedience to Christ and His Church. Judge for yourself if Vassula fits into that category.
I should also note that many people come to the Church via one of the many Protestant denominations. Do you think they should continue their involvement with their former Churchs once they have been led to the fullness of truth?
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Stephentlig
Guest
Podromos I have all the defenses you need ( websites ) that repudiate such misconceptions about Vassula. Seeing as I must respect the rules of this forum your more than welcome to pm me for them. I am not going to argue with you here about Vassula. Anyones who reads tlig will know that it is not our job to convince people of the messages but to only let those who want to hear, hear.
If it were not for these divine messages I wouldnt even be Catholic and shall continue to bring them to people that are interested which are usually the poor, whereas the intellectually wise find it very difficult indeed to overcome their hostility to such beauty.
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Gregory_I
Guest
And I am sorry, what I meant was ignatian spirituality, after ignatius loyola. I always mix up St. Francis Xavier, St. Francis De Sales, and St. Ignatius Loyola…I don’t think Ignatian retreats are in the spirit of the Fathers, and are in stark contrast to it.
NO, it is not only pride, we are to flee from visions and to flee even the desire to have any. ALL the Ascetic Fathers teach thus. THat is the whole point of Ikons, they are sure guides we can see and experience in the place of our sick and deluded imaginations…every breath this side of life is a fight, and we are to flee from sentimentality, to flee from inoppurtune mirth, to flee from visions, and to flee pride, lust, arrogance.
AND ABOVE all.
FLee disobedience and self-will. DO not assume that because you have a vivid imagination, God has spoken to you.
Once, Satan appeared to tempt a monk. He appeared as the Archangel Gabriel, and said “Behold, I am Gabriel, and I have been sent to you!” THe monk replied, “Are you sure? I am not worthy to see an angel.” Immediately the devil left.
Why risk your spiritual life on a few minutes of sensuality? Err on the side of caution, and deny the enemy any entrance. DOn’t worry, God won’t be blocked out. He sees your good will and is bigger than your cautionary efforts. If he really wants you to know something, he will make sure you find out.
NO, it is not only pride, we are to flee from visions and to flee even the desire to have any. ALL the Ascetic Fathers teach thus. THat is the whole point of Ikons, they are sure guides we can see and experience in the place of our sick and deluded imaginations…every breath this side of life is a fight, and we are to flee from sentimentality, to flee from inoppurtune mirth, to flee from visions, and to flee pride, lust, arrogance.
AND ABOVE all.
FLee disobedience and self-will. DO not assume that because you have a vivid imagination, God has spoken to you.
Once, Satan appeared to tempt a monk. He appeared as the Archangel Gabriel, and said “Behold, I am Gabriel, and I have been sent to you!” THe monk replied, “Are you sure? I am not worthy to see an angel.” Immediately the devil left.
Why risk your spiritual life on a few minutes of sensuality? Err on the side of caution, and deny the enemy any entrance. DOn’t worry, God won’t be blocked out. He sees your good will and is bigger than your cautionary efforts. If he really wants you to know something, he will make sure you find out.
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Stephentlig
Guest
Gregory I perhaps you would like St.John of the cross whose spirituality mirrors that of the fathers. St.ignatius of loyola is patron of my blog ( www.loyaltothemagisterium.wordpress.com ) and feel the need to defend him here.
St.Evagrios ( of whose many ideas were condemned at the fifth ecumenical council ) had a dream in which he was told to change his way of life. the next day he got up, left home and did just that. there is no evidence of him outright denying such a vision. after which I’m sure he would of grown in understanding what it is that comes from God and what does not ( visions etc… )
denying a vision is good indeed, but when it grows stronger and leaves the blessed effect of love it is a sheer sign that it is God. again more discernment is needed though.
St.John of the cross although he was of the same mind as the fathers nevertheless said that in beginners spirituality fantasy can be a good thing until it leads him to the true understanding. There is a ladder we must climb and like st.evagrios we all must start somewhere dont you think?
Pax
Stephen
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mardukm
Guest
I am inclined not to agree. St. Antony of the Desert had visions of the holy ones, and he learned to discern them from visions of demons. St. Macarius had many visions as well. These are the Fathers of asceticism. Coptic (and perhaps Latin) spirituality is not so detached from this world. We believe very strongly that God works through His creation, so we do not despise visions, as you might in the Eastern Tradition.
Granted, visions are only characteristic of a high level of spirituality. So one shouldn’t go looking for visions, by any means.
Now, I have to ask - does Latin Catholic spirituality instruct you to look for visions, or does it simply admit that at a certain spiritual level, God may Grace you with a holy vision. Those are two separate things, don’t you think?
Blessings,
Marduk
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Gregory_I
Guest
I agree, I suppose, but it just makes me think, why do we need to develop things beyond what the champions themselves wrote?
I do not think it is a bad think to HAVE a vision. I think it is bad to seek after them and make them the center of what will ultimately be a devastating pseudo-relationship with God. Makes you wonder what GOd thinks of these souls…
This is from sayings of the desert fathers:
"The holy Fathers were making predictions about the last generation. They said ‘What have we ourselves done?’ One of them, the great abba Ischyrion replied, ‘We ourselves have fulfilled the commandments of God.’ The others replied, ‘And those who come after us, what will they do?’ He said, ‘They will struggle to achieve half our works.’ They said, ‘And to those who come after them, what will happen?’ He said, ‘THE MEN OF THAT GENERATION WILL NOT ACCOMPLISH ANY WORKS AT ALL AND TEMPTATION WILL COME UPON THEM; AND THOSE WHO WILL BE APPROVED IN THAT DAY WILL BE GREATER THAN EITHER US OR OUR FATHERS.’ "
"Abba Lot went to see Abba Joseph and said to him, ‘Abba as far as I can I say my little office, I fast a little, I pray and meditate, I live in peace and as far as I can, I purify my thoughts. What else can I do?’ then the old man stood up and stretched his hands towards heaven. His fingers became like ten lamps of fire and he said to him, ‘If you will, you can become all flame.’ "
THis is what Abba John the Dwarf said:
"Abba John said, 'Here is what one of the old men in
ecstasy said: “Three monks were standing at the edge of the
sea, and a voice came to them from the other side saying,
‘Take wings of fire and come here to me.’ The first two did
so and reached the other shore, but the third remained,
crying and weeping exceedingly. But later wings were given
to him also, not of fire, but weak and without strength, so
that with great difficulty he reached the other shore,
sometimes under water , sometimes above it. So it is with
the present generation; if they are given wings they are not of
fire, but wings that are weak and without power.”
For myself, I do not wish to move beyond what the Fathers have taught. BUt I will not say Ignatius is wrong…It’s just the result of Scholasticism. Philosophize, theorize, Reach a COnclusion, THe Conclusion becomes a new principle to add to the deposit of faith…BUt what makes us think our philosophizing is sufficient to grasp things even angels dare not look into?
I do not think it is a bad think to HAVE a vision. I think it is bad to seek after them and make them the center of what will ultimately be a devastating pseudo-relationship with God. Makes you wonder what GOd thinks of these souls…
This is from sayings of the desert fathers:
"The holy Fathers were making predictions about the last generation. They said ‘What have we ourselves done?’ One of them, the great abba Ischyrion replied, ‘We ourselves have fulfilled the commandments of God.’ The others replied, ‘And those who come after us, what will they do?’ He said, ‘They will struggle to achieve half our works.’ They said, ‘And to those who come after them, what will happen?’ He said, ‘THE MEN OF THAT GENERATION WILL NOT ACCOMPLISH ANY WORKS AT ALL AND TEMPTATION WILL COME UPON THEM; AND THOSE WHO WILL BE APPROVED IN THAT DAY WILL BE GREATER THAN EITHER US OR OUR FATHERS.’ "
"Abba Lot went to see Abba Joseph and said to him, ‘Abba as far as I can I say my little office, I fast a little, I pray and meditate, I live in peace and as far as I can, I purify my thoughts. What else can I do?’ then the old man stood up and stretched his hands towards heaven. His fingers became like ten lamps of fire and he said to him, ‘If you will, you can become all flame.’ "
THis is what Abba John the Dwarf said:
"Abba John said, 'Here is what one of the old men in
ecstasy said: “Three monks were standing at the edge of the
sea, and a voice came to them from the other side saying,
‘Take wings of fire and come here to me.’ The first two did
so and reached the other shore, but the third remained,
crying and weeping exceedingly. But later wings were given
to him also, not of fire, but weak and without strength, so
that with great difficulty he reached the other shore,
sometimes under water , sometimes above it. So it is with
the present generation; if they are given wings they are not of
fire, but wings that are weak and without power.”
For myself, I do not wish to move beyond what the Fathers have taught. BUt I will not say Ignatius is wrong…It’s just the result of Scholasticism. Philosophize, theorize, Reach a COnclusion, THe Conclusion becomes a new principle to add to the deposit of faith…BUt what makes us think our philosophizing is sufficient to grasp things even angels dare not look into?
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
I’ll take that. Sounds like those quotes are from the Philokalia, which I’m studying parts of now.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
In actual fact, the Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius were translated into Greek (under another name and without reference to the author) by the Greek Orthodox Father, St Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain. It is still in the libraries of the monasteries of Mt Athos.
I don’t know if St Nicodemos “adapted” any part of it, as he did with “Unseen Warfare,” but if he did, and if his work with Unseen Warfare is any indication, there would not have been many changes (Unseen Warfare was completely redone by St Theophan the Recluse, not by St Nicodemos).
Alex
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
In Slavonic, spiritual delusion is called “prelest.”
Perhaps this is similar to what is called in the West “Inner Light Piety.”
Prelest is something that we can fall into without even knowing it, or without our consciences know about it. It can be brought on by emotionalism in spirituality, by believing that we have attained a high degree of perfection and so are now exempt from spiritual exercises and hard work etc.
Obedience is the one sure protection against prelest, when we are willing to relate our experiences to another (I do mine to a priest) and are willing to submit to his judgements and suggested practices.
Following our own will is the beginning and end of prelest. This is all the more difficult to get rid of when we may think that we have the Spirit dwelling within us, showing us new revelations and the like.
The imagination is always something that can play tricks on us which is also why Eastern Desert spirituality carefully guards us against its wiles.
Alex
Perhaps this is similar to what is called in the West “Inner Light Piety.”
Prelest is something that we can fall into without even knowing it, or without our consciences know about it. It can be brought on by emotionalism in spirituality, by believing that we have attained a high degree of perfection and so are now exempt from spiritual exercises and hard work etc.
Obedience is the one sure protection against prelest, when we are willing to relate our experiences to another (I do mine to a priest) and are willing to submit to his judgements and suggested practices.
Following our own will is the beginning and end of prelest. This is all the more difficult to get rid of when we may think that we have the Spirit dwelling within us, showing us new revelations and the like.
The imagination is always something that can play tricks on us which is also why Eastern Desert spirituality carefully guards us against its wiles.
Alex
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