What is status of Polish National Catholic church?

[rien]

On Grodi’s Coming Home radio show this week Anglican convert Odie said something interesting. This after saying that after the decision to ordain women as priests in the Anglican church, 2 Anglican parishes (in England) converted to Catholicim. Odie said he dealt with this in his “Roamn Option” book written at the time. He then said within a short while of that book came out the 2 parishes were disbanded. Grodi acted as if he could not believe this. I’ve never heard of this.

Can I get an independent validation, or not, on this? Odie said that the English church does not want a lot of Anglican converts.

He had an interesting prediction on what will happen in light of the expected recognition of female bishops in the Anglican church this July.

Large numbers of traditionalist Anglican priests/bishops will approach the Polish Nathional Catholic church - which has valid orders - and seek re-ordination. He said that will put Rome in a tight spot. The TAC effort doesn’t seem to be getting anywhere.

But basically his observation that Rome seems reluctant to embrace potential Anglican converts in large numbers is quite troubling. If true. This is what he said on the 06/16 Coming Home radio show. I don’t how much legitimacy to give his “opinions”.

 

[Sepharad]

This is really weird! In another thread I asked about this very church, because they used to have a church in my old neighborhood!

 

[rien]

This is really weird! In another thread I asked about this very church, because they used to have a church in my old neighborhood!

Well its real then? It came at the end of the show and Marcus seemed stunned. No calls came in after to follow up. But got to the EWTN archives and check out the 06/16 show with odie (sp?) and listen to the last several minutes to hear it for yourself.

We can’t comment on particular bishops at CA, but Odie does at the end of the interview.

He seems down on Rome doing anything and like I said “predicts” the traditional Anglicans - he didn’t reference TAC specifically - will gain valid orders through the Polish church and present Rome with a fait accompli and put Rome in a very difficult position.

He said something like they will tell Rome “here we are”!

At that point, if Rome does not act - this is me talking not Odie - I expect the traditionalist Anglicans will move toward Orthodoxy and ask for the establishment of a Western Orthodox Rite. I believe such a Rite is being talked about on one of the other threads as we post.

 

[Peter_J]

Large numbers of traditionalist Anglican priests/bishops will approach the Polish Nathional Catholic church - which has valid orders - and seek re-ordination.

A Protestant group joined the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) a few years ago. See the Touchstone article Out on a Limb in Norway.

 

[mardukm]

From what I have read in the past, the PNCC has very good relations with the Catholic Church. It was the PNCC in the late 1990’s who approached the Catholic Church with the possibility of full communion. I have not kept up with the talks, but that was what I last heard.

I believe the PNCC will join the Catholic communion first before considering Orthodoxy.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Hesychios]

Hello my brother Marduk,

From what I have read in the past, the PNCC has very good relations with the Catholic Church. It was the PNCC in the late 1990’s who approached the Catholic Church with the possibility of full communion. I have not kept up with the talks, but that was what I last heard.

I believe the PNCC will join the Catholic communion first before considering Orthodoxy.

Blessings,
Marduk

Possible, even likely.

But again, the question would be “what kind of communion?”

Are they interested in an open communion format, or full integration into the ecclesiastical structure of the Latin Catholic church? For Latin Catholics (and many others, of course) they are one and the same but not necessarily for the PNCC, or for the TAC for that matter.

I sometimes read from Catholics here comments bemoaning the fact that they are not welcome to receive in the Orthodox church. Taken at face value what these people are advocating is open communion. They desire to be able to receive even though these churches are not under the Pope!

I for one am not completely averse to the idea, I think of it as the model for future reconciliation between us. But then we have a discussion like this one where the TAC and the PNCC can be referenced in the same paragraph with the thought that they desire or suggest full communion with Rome, and I have to wonder what they really have in mind.

Michael

 

[Hesychios]

He seems down on Rome doing anything and like I said “predicts” the traditional Anglicans - he didn’t reference TAC specifically - will gain valid orders through the Polish church and present Rome with a fait accompli and put Rome in a very difficult position.

He said something like they will tell Rome “here we are”!

I am not so sure the TAC doesn’t already have valid lines in their Episcopate, according to the Latin understanding. They are well versed in the particulars.

Anglo-Catholics and High Church Anglicans were striving for proper form for many years, mostly through contacts with Old Catholics, which is essentially what the PNCC is. I find it hard to believe that the TAC has not already addressed this point in the formation of their own bishops.

I don’t think Rome is in any kind of difficulty over this, there have always been churches with valid lines of bishops outside of the Latin Catholic church, or Papal communion of churches. (At least these several lines are valid according to the Latin understanding, that does not necessarily make them valid according to another church’s understanding.)

The Vatican does have the option of including the TAC in the short list of non-Papal church membership welcome to receive as individuals (under certain conditions, of course).

Michael

 

[Peter_J]

The Polish National Catholic-Roman Catholic Dialogue was established in 1984, and meets twice each year. The USCCB website has the press releases from these meetings, along with a Joint Declaration on Unity. (For anyone who is hearing about the PNCC for the first time, let me add that they are located in the United States, not in Poland as the name might suggest. The “Polish” in PNCC is because the founders were of Polish descent.)

 

[Fuerza]

The Polish National Catholic-Roman Catholic Dialogue was established in 1984, and meets twice each year. The USCCB website has the press releases from these meetings, along with a Joint Declaration on Unity. (For anyone who is hearing about the PNCC for the first time, let me add that they are located in the United States, not in Poland as the name might suggest. The “Polish” in PNCC is because the founders were of Polish descent.)

Most PNCC churches are actually dropping the word “Polish” from their names. There are 2 or 3 in my area that now refer to themselves as the “National Catholic Church”, although “PNCC” is still placed as a subtitle on the signs directing people to the church.

 

[Hesychios]

Most PNCC churches are actually dropping the word “Polish” from their names. There are 2 or 3 in my area that now refer to themselves as the “National Catholic Church”, although “PNCC” is still placed as a subtitle on the signs directing people to the church.

Well, it’s about time!

The actual issues that went into the formation of that church body are long past. This was generally from the earliest migration of Poles into the USA and they were not served well by the American bishops. Since that time efforts were made to appoint ethnic Polish bishops and be more sensitive to special needs of immigrants, including the setting up of boundryless parishes to serve the community in their own language.

The only other issue for them was Vatican I, which was still fairly recent at the time of the schism. Some older priests were having a hard time accepting it.

My grandparents came afterward (about 1910 I think), and they simply avoided the PNCC, as most later Polish immigrants did. The Resurrectionist Fathers told them they could go to hell if they went in there.

Today, after what must be six generations and a lot of intermarriage with non-Poles, the Polish National Catholic church is not quite as Polish as it once was, and as an institution will either adapt to it’s new circumstances or melt away.

Michael

 

[GKC]

I am not so sure the TAC doesn’t already have valid lines in their Episcopate, according to the Latin understanding. They are well versed in the particulars.

Anglo-Catholics and High Church Anglicans were striving for proper form for many years, mostly through contacts with Old Catholics, which is essentially what the PNCC is. I find it hard to believe that the TAC has not already addressed this point in the formation of their own bishops.

I don’t think Rome is in any kind of difficulty over this, there have always been churches with valid lines of bishops outside of the Latin Catholic church, or Papal communion of churches. (At least these several lines are valid according to the Latin understanding, that does not necessarily make them valid according to another church’s understanding.)

The Vatican does have the option of including the TAC in the short list of non-Papal church membership welcome to receive as individuals (under certain conditions, of course).

Michael

I agree with this post. Old Catholcis (Utrecht) entered into full communion and joint consecrations with the Angilcan Church in 1932, and the PNCC started joint consecrations in 1946, which spread those varieties of Dutch Touch widely amongst Anglicanism. And Continuing Anglicans, (which is what the TAC is, generically) are particularly sensitive to the lines issue.

I’d be surprised if any of the TAC bishops were unable to find a case of Dutch Touch in their backgrounds, perhaps from the original +Chambers consecrations of the first 4 bishops of the Continuing Anglican movment, back in 1979.

GKC

 

[rien]

Hello my brother Marduk, Possible, even likely.

But again, the question would be “what kind of communion?”

Are they interested in an open communion format, or full integration into the ecclesiastical structure of the Latin Catholic church? For Latin Catholics (and many others, of course) they are one and the same but not necessarily for the PNCC, or for the TAC for that matter.

I sometimes read from Catholics here comments bemoaning the fact that they are not welcome to receive in the Orthodox church. Taken at face value what these people are advocating is open communion. They desire to be able to receive even though these churches are not under the Pope!

I for one am not completely averse to the idea, I think of it as the model for future reconciliation between us. But then we have a discussion like this one where the TAC and the PNCC can be referenced in the same paragraph with the thought that they desire or suggest full communion with Rome, and I have to wonder what they really have in mind.

Michael

I’d guess they want some sort of autonomy. Like deciding on their own bishops. Maybe a compromise - thay submit 3 names for bishop to the Pope and he selects one of the three. Basically giving the Polish/National church or TAC or whatever control over their bishops while allowing Rome a role.

 

[Peter_J]

Conservative Anglicans to officially announce schism next [this] week

See this thread, and the links therein.

 

[Peter_J]

Most PNCC churches are actually dropping the word “Polish” from their names. There are 2 or 3 in my area that now refer to themselves as the “National Catholic Church”, although “PNCC” is still placed as a subtitle on the signs directing people to the church.

If you’ll forgive my tangentalness, when I first heard about the “Polish National Catholic Church” (which was in the Touchstone article about that Lutheran group coming into full communion with the PNCC), I had no idea that of it being an American group. I guess it just never came up in the article.

 

[LJinPA]

I myself have been curious about the PNCC. I lived in the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area all my life (the area where the PNCC was founded) and I’ve only met one family back when I was in high school who belonged to it. I do know there are several parishes in my area though.
From what I’ve read they are the one of the largest if not the largest Independant Catholic bodies in the country. I also know they have rather friendly relations with the Catholic church and this is mentioned in the Diocese of Scranton website.
If unity was established I wonder if it would mean simple absorbtion which would simply make them Polish RC parishes? Would it be a Polish Rite under the Pope but with their own bishops like the Maronites and Byzantines have? Would the Polish National Catholic Church have to change their dogmas? I don’t see Rome accepting them if they allow contraception or don’t require individual confession for adults.
I’ve read about Franciszek Hodur (their founder) and he seems like an interesting guy. I’m not sure where his theology is based but sounds almost Eastern or Byzantine such in his view on original sin. (Not that that’s a bad thing and Catholics do have an eastern rite). He also is said to have believed in universal salvation though the way I read it was he believed in the “possibility” of universal salvation. I’m not sure of all PNCC members have to believe this though since I don’t get the impression that the church is legalistic.
I’ve read the churches website as well as a few from individual parishes. I don’t know if they have a full chatechism so it’s hard to tell what is taught. It would be interesting to know what the conditions for reunion would be regarding dogma.
I do think there will be a trend to drop the P from the PNCC in newer parishes with a lot of Polish Americans intermarrying and are of 3rd to 4th generation by now. That leaves me to wonder… although this group is “conservative” compared to Episcopaleans and other Old Catholics, they do have married priests, divorce and remarriage allowed, contraception(except for abortion) is allowed, and confession not mandatory for adults, some rejection the notion of eternal hell… Why are the many cafeteria catholics out there not flocking to the PNCC or “NCC” in droves???

 

[1234]

I would think that the ‘conservative’ Anglicans would more likely seek out another branch with valid orders, who would recognize Anglican orders thru the ‘dutch touch’, or to agree to re-consecrate Anglican bishops, if they would agree. Preferably some church with married (male) priests.

I think that Rome would have a hard time assimilating all those married priests who leave the ECUSA in the next wave–if there are a lot of them, o nto their unmarried celibate priesthood. Most of the Anglican priests, tho’ potentially of great value in the severely understaffed RCC priesthood, would remind the RCC celibatse of all that they gave up.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I myself have been curious about the PNCC. I lived in the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area all my life (the area where the PNCC was founded) and I’ve only met one family back when I was in high school who belonged to it. I do know there are several parishes in my area though.
From what I’ve read they are the one of the largest if not the largest Independant Catholic bodies in the country. I also know they have rather friendly relations with the Catholic church and this is mentioned in the Diocese of Scranton website.
If unity was established I wonder if it would mean simple absorbtion which would simply make them Polish RC parishes? Would it be a Polish Rite under the Pope but with their own bishops like the Maronites and Byzantines have? Would the Polish National Catholic Church have to change their dogmas? I don’t see Rome accepting them if they allow contraception or don’t require individual confession for adults.
I’ve read about Franciszek Hodur (their founder) and he seems like an interesting guy. I’m not sure where his theology is based but sounds almost Eastern or Byzantine such in his view on original sin. (Not that that’s a bad thing and Catholics do have an eastern rite). He also is said to have believed in universal salvation though the way I read it was he believed in the “possibility” of universal salvation. I’m not sure of all PNCC members have to believe this though since I don’t get the impression that the church is legalistic.
I’ve read the churches website as well as a few from individual parishes. I don’t know if they have a full chatechism so it’s hard to tell what is taught. It would be interesting to know what the conditions for reunion would be regarding dogma.
I do think there will be a trend to drop the P from the PNCC in newer parishes with a lot of Polish Americans intermarrying and are of 3rd to 4th generation by now. That leaves me to wonder… although this group is “conservative” compared to Episcopaleans and other Old Catholics, they do have married priests, divorce and remarriage allowed, contraception(except for abortion) is allowed, and confession not mandatory for adults, some rejection the notion of eternal hell… Why are the many cafeteria catholics out there not flocking to the PNCC or “NCC” in droves???

Many don’t know of it. Just like the Orthodox.

Its conservative enough that it pulled out of communion with the Old Catholics as they have gone liberal. And that’s not what they go to the cafeteria for. Despite what many here think, Orthodoxy and the PNNC are not Vatican lite. FAR from.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I would think that the ‘conservative’ Anglicans would more likely seek out another branch with valid orders, who would recognize Anglican orders thru the ‘dutch touch’, or to agree to re-consecrate Anglican bishops, if they would agree. Preferably some church with married (male) priests.

I think that Rome would have a hard time assimilating all those married priests who leave the ECUSA in the next wave–if there are a lot of them, o nto their unmarried celibate priesthood. Most of the Anglican priests, tho’ potentially of great value in the severely understaffed RCC priesthood, would remind the RCC celibatse of all that they gave up.

If the Anglican Use can’t take them, the Western Rite Orthodox would be more than glad. We want them anyway.

 

[Peter_J]

I would think that the ‘conservative’ Anglicans would more likely seek out another branch with valid orders, who would recognize Anglican orders thru the ‘dutch touch’, or to agree to re-consecrate Anglican bishops, if they would agree. Preferably some church with married (male) priests.

I think that Rome would have a hard time assimilating all those married priests who leave the ECUSA in the next wave–if there are a lot of them, o nto their unmarried celibate priesthood. Most of the Anglican priests, tho’ potentially of great value in the severely understaffed RCC priesthood, would remind the RCC celibatse of all that they gave up.

I agree with your conclusion (i.e. that it would make a lot of sense for them to instead go to the PNCC or the like) but not your argument. There’s just no way that the number of ECUSA clergy wanting to join the Catholic Church would be so large as to “cause a problem” for the Catholic Church in the U.S.

 

[LJinPA]

I think a lot will have to do with location, both the PNCC and Western Rite Orthodoxy are relitively small and not ubiquitous… PNCC parishes seem to be mostly in the rust belt while Western Orthodox parishes seem to be more south and west.

Now that a lot of traditional Anglicans are also breaking away from Canterbury/Utrecht… and looking to move closer to Rome… I would wonder if this would lead to future alliances bettern the PNCC and continuing Anglicans. There is also a Mexican National Catholic Church with veiws similar to the PNCC.

The PNCC seems unique in that it seems to be one of the only independant Catholic churches which seem to the thriving and the only one that seems to have mainstream Christian positions. Looking through the different Independant High-Church, old-Catholic, Anglican, Apostolic sites, Most seem to be liberal to the extreme rejecting dogma or all moral statements, pro-choice… Or they are Ultra Traditionalists angry with “modernisms” in their previous church. Both extremes polemical in tone and defined more by what their against than what their for… in contrast the PNCC seems to be the most positive in tone. Some of these other churches are just one little clique of break away priests.

One thing with the PNCC is they have a 100 year history and were culturally rooted before the modern controversies erupted.
One trend I notice on some of the other schismatic movements is you look at their website and they tend to totally define themselves on a few pet issues- such as woman priests, feminism, gays…The first thing one sees on what they teach is how liberal or ultrs-conservative they are on these current pet issues and cater mainly to disgruntled people on both extremes. Even mainline Churches are starting to get polemical in tone lately.