What is Substitutional Prayer?

[CentralFLJames]

A Protestant friend is “church shopping” and he has developed a spread sheet of his personal criteria for choosing the church he wants. It’s unreal - he has his own metrics and scoring system in a very complex spread-sheet with over 35 of his personal critera (columns) for choosing “the best” church that is not “apostate” from among 35 seperate area denominations. I won’t go into all that here but I do have him looking into the Catholic Church (which is currently scoring lowest on his metrics raw score lol). He has pre filled the data for Catholic churches based on what he understands Catholic teaching to be. I advised him his categories are “loaded” around Protestant theories and concepts that are bogus and biasing his “domain study” and so told him he has non-objective categories that are not orthogonal to each other and wildly overlap to spoil his fun. Anyway he wants me to tune the data entry for his take on what Catholics beleive based on “his” categories and correct any misunderstandings about what he knows Catholics teach. It is the best he can do to be “objective” - a typical PhD nerd scientist type I see all the time in the secular-intellectual communities I am routinely exposed too lol…

Anyway he threw me a stumper on one of his categories.

**Does anyone know what the term “Substitutional Prayer” refers to? **

I have never heard this before and it sounds like he is trying to load the deck here against Catholics on many of his criteria under a self-delusional ruse of objectivism. My best guess is that this refers to perhaps intercession of the saints? Or perhaps praying in lieu of sacrifice? Maybe subordinate mediation?

Any ideas?

I am humoring him and going along with his “domain survey” to learn somthing about the bizarre inner-workings of a semi-intellectual bible-only Protestant’s mind who is a formally educated and disciplined as a scientist. It’s been quite interesting to see this stuff and now I see why no “design by committee” projects his company ever puts him on to develop ever ends up working in real life.

Would appreciate ideas…

James

 

[Nita]

Why don’t you just ask him what he means by substitutional prayer? If you respond only on what you/we think he means, the replies could be way off the mark.

(You note intercesssory prayer. Saints who undergo suffering on behalf of another sinner also comes to mind.
And then there’s the Mormon substitutionary batism on behalf of those who died unbaptized.
But, he may have something completely different in mind.)

God loves educated nerds too. Who knows, maybe this survey is God’s idea – a way that may end up getting this “nerd” to convince himself that Catholicism is THE Church.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Why don’t you just ask him what he means by substitutional prayer? If you respond only on what you/we think he means, the replies could be way off the mark.

(You note intercesssory prayer. Saints who undergo suffering on behalf of another sinner also comes to mind.
And then there’s the Mormon substitutionary batism on behalf of those who died unbaptized.
But, he may have something completely different in mind.)

God loves educated nerds too. Who knows, maybe this survey is God’s idea – a way that may end up getting this “nerd” to convince himself that Catholicism is THE Church.

Nita - I am a nerd too - that’s why he talks to me.

Thanks for your suggestion and your speculation on God’s purpose.

James

 

[MarcoPolo]

I would guess it is intercessory prayer.

Can you get ahold of this spreadsheet and post it here?

 

[CentralFLJames]

I would guess it is intercessory prayer.

Can you get ahold of this spreadsheet and post it here?

I didn’t know one could upload content and link to it here. Is that possible? How do I do that?

Even so, I don’t really feel comfortable putting it on here since he gave it to me in trust and there is some personal area information on it I’d have to edit out. Besides the poor guy is so intent on making his selection bend to his idea of what Christianity is I would feel very embarrassed for him. People here would cut it to shreds on literally every single category he uses.

He also has his own 35 point questionnaire on every aspect of the church from tithing to ordaining woman and homosexuals to what kind of songs are sung. He sent that out to each minister – which I filled out for The Catholic Church since I knew no one would take the time to do it if he sent it in to the local parish here. He is like “interviewing” each minister in person as if he is a gift to God’s Church and they must sell him on their church in order to gain his presence lol. The attitude and hubris is just unreal. He also wanted a statement of faith sheet filled out and emailed back. So I pointed him to the Nicene Creed for Catholics and told him it was good at any Catholic Church in the world since we are one faith.

I admire the guy’s tenacity and perseverance but his evaluation criteria is painting all churches into a corner based on what he personally thinks Christianity should be from bible reading. BTW- I often use him as a great test case for logical debate on Catholic-Protestant principals since he has a good logical mind. But he is of the kind where he can agree with you logically but then fail to psychologically agree even when the facts prove he is wrong on a matter and even when he concedes a point of argument. It’s been a great lesson in human physchology that proves apologetics that appeal to reason only is doomed to fail with a large number of people who are more emotionally driven than rationally driven.

It’s really a tragic situation given that the reason he is church shopping is because he was excommunicated out of his last bible-church (Calvary). Apparently he embarrassed the minister publicly when he challenged his teachings before the congregation and was told to leave and not come back and a statement was made publicly. Reminds me of an honor-code violation and drum-out ceremony we still do at certain military academies/institutions…

James

 

[MarcoPolo]

It’s really a tragic situation given that the reason he is church shopping is because he was excommunicated out of his last bible-church (Calvary). Apparently he embarrassed the minister publicly when he challenged his teachings before the congregation and was told to leave and not come back and a statement was made publicly. Reminds me of an honor-code violation and drum-out ceremony we still do at certain military academies/institutions…

James

If only he could have taken his case “to the Church” as Scripture says!

 

[CentralFLJames]

If only he could have taken his case “to the Church” as Scripture says!

This is actually a very interesting exercise since he is essentially putting me in his shoes to see what the average Protestant who takes their salvation seriously must do for “due diligence” to “church shop”. There are scores of denominations for this man to choose from and he is making a deliberate attempt to whittle the list down and its consuming him in time to explore and pick and choose and evaluate. He has confided that “none” of them on his list meets all HIS requirements but he is determined to pick the top 2 or 3 choices and go in and make a decision. He is leaning strongly toward another new bible-only mega non-denom different from the one he was at.

I really can’t imagine how any Protestant can deal with the stress of “church shopping” and expect to land in the “right” church that will help them get to heaven. I suspect most go on word of mouth from friends and use a social criteria on a “birds of a feather” theory. But this guy is determined to use the scientific approach (as biased as it is lol) and is only limiting himself to his driving range of 45 minutes. I hope the “one” that’s gonna get him to the promised land is in our county . Can anyone imagine what it would be like if somone finally unequivocally were able to prove and convince “by scripture alone” that only one church can be the right one and because of their formation history they will never consider it to be the Catholic Church? Can you imagine the hysteria in trying to find that 1 single needle in a haystack out of 40,000+ world wide sects that is “the one”? Playing roulette with 35 numbers (and with zero and double zero) is hard enough - but 40,000+ ???

I am so glad I know the “one church” is in fact the Catholic Church!

James

 

[GodIsGracious]

This is actually a very interesting exercise since he is essentially putting me in his shoes to see what the average Protestant who takes their salvation seriously must do for “due diligence” to “church shop”. There are scores of denominations for this man to choose from and he is making a deliberate attempt to whittle the list down and its consuming him in time to explore and pick and choose and evaluate. He has confided that “none” of them on his list meets all HIS requirements but he is determined to pick the top 2 or 3 choices and go in and make a decision. He is leaning strongly toward another new bible-only mega non-denom different from the one he was at.

I don’t think this is what your friend is doing. On the surface, sure. I think he got badly burned or hurt from his last church. Can you imagine going to a church, being a regular participating and contributing member, then based on one man’s pride (in this case, the pastor), you get kicked out?

I imagine it must be tough. Sort of like the jilted lover. So I wonder if his high criteria and spreadsheet and investigations and surveying and interviews and critical reviews, etc. etc. etc., he’s not really hiding some hurt, disillusionment, bewilderment, all those -ments. If you’ve placed your whole faith in a church run by mere humans, when you’re kicked out, it can probably feel like God kicked you out and rejected you. Although we know it is not the case.

I really can’t imagine how any Protestant can deal with the stress of “church shopping” and expect to land in the “right” church that will help them get to heaven. I suspect most go on word of mouth from friends and use a social criteria on a “birds of a feather” theory.

I hear ya. Most Protestants I have asked was the main reason they chose their church was “fellowship.” To me that reeks of a socializing aspect. One woman, I can’t forget her because I felt really disappointed, although, who am I to talk because I wasn’t even attending the Catholic church and I’m a cradle Catholic! She told me she left the Catholic church and joined a local mega-church here because she felt welcomed, people liked her, and they paid attention to her.

But this guy is determined to use the scientific approach (as biased as it is lol) and is only limiting himself to his driving range of 45 minutes. I hope the “one” that’s gonna get him to the promised land is in our county . Can anyone imagine what it would be like if somone finally unequivocally were able to prove and convince “by scripture alone” that only one church can be the right one and because of their formation history they will never consider it to be the Catholic Church? Can you imagine the hysteria in trying to find that 1 single needle in a haystack out of 40,000+ world wide sects that is “the one”? Playing roulette with 35 numbers (and with zero and double zero) is hard enough - but 40,000+ ???

I am so glad I know the “one church” is in fact the Catholic Church!

James

Well, the “one” that will help him get to the promised land probably IS in your county, provided there’s a Catholic church in it!

That being said … I find your use of the word “hysteria” an interesting word. It must feel awful for someone who craves worshipping Christ in a “church” situation to simply be “out there.” As if flung to the wind. Really, where do you land?

I would look at this situation (and am!) as God showing me and getting me to a moment of gratitude for being a Catholic. The more I read these forums, the more grateful I am that I am Catholic, and that God allowed me to live to beome right with Him. I sometimes shudder when I think of what could have happened.

I’m nerdy too. I’ve got a B.S. in comp sci myself, and spreadsheets with requirements are what my boyfriend and I do when we’re about to build our next computers, so I can certainly understand that when one views religion as a “thing” to have in one’s life, it boils down to which “thing” to get, or if you can’t have the exact “thing” you want, then the next best closest “thing” may suffice.

That being said, I think patience for your friend is called for right now, and compassion too. I don’t care HOW “nerdy” he is he needs compassion right now. He’s been flung to the wind by an group of people he trusted and put faith in and it’s shattered. I suspect his spreadsheet is a means for him to help heal and protect himself. I mean, how can he get hurt by something that cannot get past his spreadsheet to his heart?

I did a google look up for “Substitutional Prayer” and didn’t find anything, or anything significant. I then wondered if it was a way to say “substitution of prayer,” but… see… I think you need to ask your friend what he means then come back here and tell us. I’m curious.

Oh, and it is right to keep his spreadsheet private since he asked you to too. It’s probably crucial right now. Since the Catholic church is so low on his personal opinion poll, it may be a good time to practice being the best face of the Catholic church he sees. You may be his only light to the Truth and he’s having a hard time facing it with all the pain.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I also have NO IDEA what substitutional prayer is [or what he means by it]. But as a confirmed nerd myself and having worked among my fellow nerds for half a century, the experience you are both going through is extremely interesting to me.

It is extremely unusual/gratifying that your friend is so open to you and sharing the details of the quest that he is undergoing.

What a wonderful experience!

If I were in your shoes, I might suggest that there might be other criteria that we had not personally thought of yet. [This is coming from me … and I don’t know what the 35 decisional criteria he set up might be.]

I might say, that I didn’t know what those other criteria might be yet … but since the Catholic religion is somewhat different from Protest-ant denominations * … there might be some experiential aspect(s) that are not on the list.

Whenever I visit a Catholic church building, I always “feel” a presence, even if no one is there except me. I “assume” the presence that I feel is Jesus in the Tabernacle [or if there is Eucharistic Adoration going on … Jesus in the Monstrance].

So, I might invite him for a guided tour of an actual Catholic church building.

[Heck, invite him to post his 35 critieria here on CAF!]*

 

[Nita]

Another thought about substitutional prayer that crossed my mind: could he be referring to Christ’s redemption of us. I’m thinking of how some denominations speak specifically of Christ taking all the pain and punishment that would be due us and taking it upon Himself. He becomes us substitute (re punishment) for us in the very strict judicial sense of the word.

 

[CentralFLJames]

OK - for starters here is his "Church Belief’s/Statement-Of-Faith Questionnaire.

Church Beliefs and/or Statement-of-Faith (SOF)

1. What translation of the Bible does your church use and do you believe it is the only translation/transliteration inspired by the Holy Spirit?
2. Does your church believe that the Bible, in its original manuscripts (which are all lost), is the inerrant Word of God?
3. How does your church handle the teaching of Mark 16:9-20?
4. Does your church teach God’s Word in an expositional manor?
5. Does your church believe/teach in the Trinity (i.e., the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) are one yet co-equal as the God head which was, is, and will always be eternal)?
6. Does your church believe/teach that Jesus is the only way to salvation and getting into heaven?
7. Does your church believe/teach that “Once Saved, Always Saved”?
8. Does your church believe/teach that water baptism is required for salvation; and if so, is it by immersion?
9. Does your church practice baptism of infants and/or baby dedications? If so, is Believers baptism required if baptized as an infant?
10. What are your churches eschatological beliefs (i.e., End Times)?" Specifically on the rapture (e.g., pre-tribulation) and the millennial kingdom (e.g., pre-millennial)?
11. Does your church believe/teach in the doctrine of “Election”?
12. Does your church believe/teach numerology?
13. Does your church believe/teach in substitutional prayer?
14. Does your church believe/teach in “binding and loosing” of demons, principalities, warring angles, etc?
15. Does your church believe/teach that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active today?
16. Does your church believe/teach in an individual prayer language (i.e., the groaning of the Holy Spirit in prayer)?
17. Does your church believe/teach that healing comes by anointing with oil and laying on of hands in addition to prayer (i.e., it’s a dogmatic formula)?
18. Does your church believe/teach in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at salvation?
19. Does your church believe/teach in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (BHS), and do you believe that BHS is at salvation or normally subsequent to salvation?
20. Does your church believe/teach that the Sabbath must be on a Saturday only?
21. Does your church restrict children from attending the main service’s teaching to avoid distracting others; if so, to what grade level?
22. Does your church have and/or require a SOF be signed before one can serve God as a representative of your church (e.g., administration, bible study, Home Group leader)?
23. Does your church require membership; and if so, what is the purpose and requirements?
24. How long must you have attended and/or be a member of your church to teach Bible studies in your church?
25. Does your church have Home Groups and/or Bible study classes?
26. What is your churches position on Tithing?
27. What is your churches position on homosexuality?
28. What is your churches position on ordaining adulators/homosexuals as pastor-teachers?
29. What is your churches position on women as pastor-teachers/elders?
30. How often does your church take communion and what are the requirements for one to do so?
31. How does your church worship (e.g., contemporary music, no instruments just hymns, blend, none, other)?
32. Does your church do additional ceremonial things not required by the Bible (e.g., knelling before entering the pews)?
33. How long and what is the make up of one of your services (i.e., order of worship)?
34. How does your church do an alter call?
35. Is your church considered a reformed church?

James

 

[GodIsGracious]

Interesting questionaire. This whole time I had been a bit perplexed on the term, “Statement of Faith.” Now I get it. There are so many Protestant churches with so many different practices and beliefs, etc. that they need to have some sort of statement, like, a mission statement, except it is called a “Statement of Faith” in order for one to determine, well… ok, in order for one to “church shop.”

I can see a few questions in there that may be directed specifically at Catholicism. But it seems that even some of those others questions I can deduce that some Protestant churches have some practices that are “non-Biblical.” I mean really, if they didn’t, why would he need a “Statement of Faith” questionaire?

Very interesting indeed. I love how all over the world the Catholic church has the Nicene Creed. You pretty much know what you’re getting in Kansas, California, Georgia, England, France, Rome, with the Catholic church.

Good luck to your friend, James. May God grant him the gift of being open to the Holy Spirit’s guidance to the Truth.

 

[CentralFLJames]

My response took considerable time since I had to frame some of the replies in a manner that preempted his assumptions yet gave an accurate teaching as well as showed the error in the inherent assumption behind the questions. It’s about 4 or 5 pages of posting text if anyone wants me to post my response.

James

 

[mdcpensive1]

James, why don’t you make up an alternate spreadsheet for him. That ought to be interesting.

mdcpensive1

PS, my wife and I enjoyed our meeting with you last year down in Florida at the restaurant on the water front.

 

[nkbeth]

Google finds a lot more results for “substitutionary prayer” than for “substitutional prayer”.

Some results imply “intercessory” or “priestly” prayer might be called “substitutionary”. I couldn’t find a real definition, and I didn’t find much Catholic info at all.

There is more information on “substitutionary atonement” which has to do with Christ dying on the cross in our place. (There is a lot of discussion even in this forum about the Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant beliefs concerning this truth).

–
Will your friend put his spreadsheet into a pamphlet form so I can decide what religion I’ll vote for when I’d like a new one? …No thanks, I guess I’ll stick with the Catholic Church.

 

[fadingfaith]

i can really relate to what your friend is going through. (yes, i’m a “nerd” ) i just haven’t had the time or energy to make a spreadsheet, but its all in my head. i’ve had visions of myself making spreadsheets like his!

anyway, this may help - i dont know… i just think about the question of faith (concerning christianity - assuming the truth is in christianity) and i cant help but wonder if the answer (if there is one) isnt right under our noses. i mean, it seems fairly obvious, at least to me, that either the fullness of truth resides in the catholic church (whose roots can easily be traced back to the beginning [christ]) or a very very simple interpretation of the bible (if there is one…) and those who adhere to it (probably a severely fundamentalist group).

what i’m getting at is: (and i know he isn’t struggling with the existence of god -but i am…) IF there is a god, how difficult would it be to find his revelation (if he left one)? i consider myself to be of fairly average intelligence, and i can only dream of doing what he is doing (your friend, that is) to determine the best church. does it really take that much intelligence and knowledge of spreadsheet for instance to know gods revelation? that isn’t much of a revelation now, is it? if revelation is so hidden, can it rightly be called REVEAL-ATION???

i really do believe that either god does not exist, or his revelation is easy to know and understand and follow. not trying to make atheists out of anyone (as i do feel more compelled toward a tiny little spark of faith lately…), but it seems farily obvious to me that it can’t be all that complicated. if it is, then it isn’t really revelation - at least, not revelation for all…

 

[Nita]

anyway, this may help - i dont know… i just think about the question of faith (concerning christianity - assuming the truth is in christianity) and i cant help but wonder if the answer (if there is one) isnt right under our noses. i mean, it seems fairly obvious, at least to me, that either the fullness of truth resides in the catholic church (whose roots can easily be traced back to the beginning [christ]) or a very very simple interpretation of the bible (if there is one…) and those who adhere to it (probably a severely fundamentalist group).

what i’m getting at is: (and i know he isn’t struggling with the existence of god -but i am…) IF there is a god, how difficult would it be to find his revelation (if he left one)? i consider myself to be of fairly average intelligence, and i can only dream of doing what he is doing (your friend, that is) to determine the best church. does it really take that much intelligence and knowledge of spreadsheet for instance to know gods revelation? that isn’t much of a revelation now, is it? if revelation is so hidden, can it rightly be called REVEAL-ATION???

i really do believe that either god does not exist, or his revelation is easy to know and understand and follow. not trying to make atheists out of anyone (as i do feel more compelled toward a tiny little spark of faith lately…), but it seems farily obvious to me that it can’t be all that complicated. if it is, then it isn’t really revelation - at least, not revelation for all…

Hello fadingfaith,
You are right when you think that the revelation of God should be easy to know; it is, and it is readibly available to all – especially revelation of His existence.
Romans 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 1:20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 1:21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, .
It isn’t God who has obscured what is clear to us even as youths – it is the so-called “wisdom” of men.

Many of us go thru a crisis of faith at some point; the particular area (existence of God; deity of Christ; denomination…) can differ. You didn’t mention in your post whether their was something specific that precipitated this crisis of faith. [In this culture, it is often the so-called wisdom of the scientific atheists. Their arguments are meaningless. They attempt to disprove what isn’t physical because it isn’t physically observable or measurable*!!!** Excuse my sacrcasm, but sometimes one does wonder about their so-called intelligence.]

My personal crisis did not involve the existence of God – so I can’t advise from personal experience. Personally, I kept begging God for the truth (because I was interested only in truth; falsehood being meaningless/valueless).

I would say however, that if knowing the truth is important to you, if that is what you are craving, consider a couple of points:

1. if there is no God, then it is impossible to know for sure what the truth is (men are always disagreeing );
2. if there is truth, WHO would know it other than God;
3. Consider praying in a “conditional” manner that reflects honestly your current state of mind: Eg. “Dear God, IF you exist, please, please, please show me Your truth.”
   Pray **until **He answers - even if it takes years. If you pray from the heart, and **persist **in praying, you will get an answer. And, if it takes years, I’m convinced God will let you know why it was best for you that it took that long.

I’ll be praying for you; I’ve known the agony of a faith crisis also.
Nita

 

[fadingfaith]

Hello fadingfaith,
You are right when you think that the revelation of God should be easy to know; it is, and it is readibly available to all – especially revelation of His existence.
Romans 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 1:20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 1:21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, .
It isn’t God who has obscured what is clear to us even as youths – it is the so-called “wisdom” of men.

Many of us go thru a crisis of faith at some point; the particular area (existence of God; deity of Christ; denomination…) can differ. You didn’t mention in your post whether their was something specific that precipitated this crisis of faith. [In this culture, it is often the so-called wisdom of the scientific atheists. Their arguments are meaningless. *They attempt to disprove what isn’t physical because it isn’t physically observable or measurable

!!! Excuse my sacrcasm, but sometimes one does wonder about their so-called intelligence.] the thought has occurred to me on several occasions that it is precisely that level of skepticism that has fought hard against what science has tried to reveal throughout history. i mean, if you aren’t open to the possibilities, no matter how unbelievable or unprovable they may be at the time, then it becomes impossible to discover new things. i can obstinately insist that the earth is flat b/c i cannot myself prove otherwise, but how rational am i being?

what precipitated my crisis? i’m not exactly sure, and i dont want to hijack the thread here, but i’d have to say it may have been that irrational skepticism that led me from the catholic church into fundamentalism continuing at work until i was skeptical that god even existed. right now i’m moving back toward at least some faith (in christianity) and am still pondering what is more likely to be true regarding god’s revelation: that the catholic church is the one founded and protected by christ, or that the bible was meant to be the sole authority in guiding the church. i think another thing which may have helped my crisis is that i couldn’t prove that my interpretation of the bible was the correct one (that is, after having left the catholic church) but this does fit very well with that simplicity of revelation we’re talking about here. if the bible can be personally interpreted, it ought not be very difficult to understand. but many denoms after the reformation prove it isn’t easy, unless there are other reasons why people come to different interpretations, like say an unwillingness to truly follow what is in it, reading into the text what they want it to say, and knowing the deceiptfulness of man’s heart i’m not sure i could ever put that much faith in my own interpretation! i do still often wonder about that though, and when i read through some of the threads here and see how complicated even catholicism is and see the bickering amongst catholics as to what is infallible teaching and not for instance, well, it kind of makes me wonder if catholicism really is that obviously the answer. it is this uncertainty which lends some credence to atheism actually and that’s why there is but a very small thread of faith for me at this time.

My personal crisis did not involve the existence of God – so I can’t advise from personal experience. Personally, I kept begging God for the truth (because I was interested only in truth; falsehood being meaningless/valueless).

I would say however, that if knowing the truth is important to you, if that is what you are craving, consider a couple of points:

1. if there is no God, then it is impossible to know for sure what the truth is (men are always disagreeing );
2. if there is truth, WHO would know it other than God;
3. Consider praying in a “conditional” manner that reflects honestly your current state of mind: Eg. “Dear God, IF you exist, please, please, please show me Your truth.”
   Pray **until **He answers - even if it takes years. If you pray from the heart, and **persist **in praying, you will get an answer. And, if it takes years, I’m convinced God will let you know why it was best for you that it took that long.

I’ll be praying for you; I’ve known the agony of a faith crisis also.
Nita

thank you, Nita. i am praying again in just that way.

 

[CentralFLJames]

James, why don’t you make up an alternate spreadsheet for him. That ought to be interesting.

mdcpensive1

PS, my wife and I enjoyed our meeting with you last year down in Florida at the restaurant on the water front.

Hi mdcpensive,
I don’t think he will be receptive to that.

He and I have been in apologetics debate for 2 months of protracted and lengthy email exchanges. He is predisposed to anti-Catholic prejudices (the regular run of: anti clerical, anti liturgical, anti sacramental, anti authority venom) and would claim that “those are Catholic and therefore man-made ideas and not biblical”. . At least now I got him to admit that the Holy Spirit is powerful enough to be able to “save” even us Catholics. But I am really getting ever more suspicious of his growing collection of Nazi uniforms, Third-Reich weapon collections, period figurines, miniature military models and various other historical artifacts that are part of his hobby . His wife, who is very nice and has more outwardly broadcast Christian virtues than he does (kind, mild, patient, etc.) is “not yet saved” (his words - but he is “working on her” ). She seems to fancy herself as a white-witch (lots of D&D genre fantasy role-playing game figurines on display) and knows how to keep him “in line” and civil with others - “witch-spells” no doubt lol. Sigh, what an eclectic and unlikely pairing and situation.

Here are the main categories from his spread sheet:

• Apostate - YES/NO (YES - doesn’t believe in the whole council of God, ordains woman as pastor-teachers of men, ordains practicing adulterers, ordains practicing homosexuals).
• Baptism - Immersion/Pour/Sprinkle/Optional/Don’t Believe (Requirement of salvation, dogmatic on mode, and/or infant baptism nullifying “Believer’s Baptism”? Not biblical.)
• Bible - Name and version ( Translation inspired by the Holy Spirit (e.g., KJV)? Not biblical)
• Denomination -
• Worship Music - Styles (Does it draw attention to those leading or to God? Not a good thing.)
• Predestination - BELIEVE/DON’T BELIEVE/OSAS-ONLY (“believe” seems to be Calvinistic double-predestiny)
• Ritualistic - YES/NO/SOME (he abhors kneeling, candles, holy water, liturgy, incense)
• Spiritual Gifts - ACTIVE/INACTIVE/APOSTOLIC (Is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit a subsequent event in addition to Motivational, Sign, and Leadership gifts; in addition, speak in Tongues during service and/or are Cessasionists?)
• Charismatic - “Charismatic” (e.g., believes speaking tongues without an interpreter is o.k.) and/or “Pentecostal” (e.g., baptism of the Holy Spirit is a subsequent experience). Not biblical. ),
• Teaching - TOPICAL/EXPOSITIONAL/MIXED/OTHER (Expositional gains higest score even after I told him it would take 17 years to teach the bible this way LOL)
• Rank - (subjective score)
• Visited - YES/NO
• Holy Spirit O.K. (Did the HS tell me this is an OK Congregation?)

I did get him to admit in one apologetics exchange that the true biblical church was distinguished by the 4 marks: ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, APOSTOLIC but he completely denies that this is the Catholic Church LOL…

James
p.s. It was very nice meeting you and your wife - a very nice couple. But have you got her political views re-calibrated and now voting 100% Catholic after we tag-teamed her with the stereo water-boarding session over dessert? Key Lime pie trumps Pork barrel spending fare everytime.

 

[GodIsGracious]

HEY! There’s nothing wrong with D&D! I also play MMOs online and don’t find it to conflict with being a Catholic, so I don’t see why that is an indicator of one’s religion or faith. I find such associations to be … strained.

That being said, I know a Wiccan “priestess” who is married to an atheist. I personally find it an interesting combination. She has been, however, singing in a choir in a non-denominational church. Hopefully she’ll go back to her Catholic roots.

As for your friend…if he has a strong interest in Nazi paraphernalia, I *think *that is more of an indicator of his state of mind that his wife’s playing dungeons and dragons.

He sounds like he’s going down a scary path. What I find interesting is that he was willing to share his spreadsheet with you knowing that you’re Catholic even with his anti-Catholic inclinations.

Does he trust you that much, “inspite of” you being Catholic? Or is he perhaps really curious? Or just doesn’t think about your faith when he talks to you about his?