What is Substitutional Prayer?

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The ‘believe/teach’ struck me as funny. I wonder what he would do if a pastor told him: “Well, we teach it, but we don’t really believe it.”
 
GodIsGracious said:
Does he trust you that much, “inspite of” you being Catholic? Or is he perhaps really curious? Or just doesn’t think about your faith when he talks to you about his?
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It’s too complex to describe the social dynamic - its an unlikely pairing.

I think he imagines he is trying to convert me but is also curious why I have a good answer for everything that refutes everyone of his false perceptions of what Catholics really believe or why we hold certain beliefs and traditions.

James
 
The whole thing strikes me as funny. The guy lists 35 of his personal critera for choosing “the best” church?
Back when I was part of evangelical/fundamentalist churches we often would get visited by ‘church hoppers’ (or as Malcolm Smith coined them, spiritually homeless).
EVERY CHURCH in the TRI-STATE area knew who these people were and groaned when they walked into church. The man walked in clutching his King James Bible, mom looked like she walked straight out of ‘Leave it to Beaver’, the kids looked like little drones. Have you ever had a four year old girl tell a teacher in Sunday School “that’s not scriptural”? I have.
Anyway, after the service the father would walk up to the preacher with a list of things his family believed and wanted to know ‘where the church stands on…’. Then they would tell you what was wrong with the last seven churches (and preachers) they were a part of. He would explain they were just ‘looking for a place to serve God’.
If (God help you) they LIKED you (or thought you might be easy to control). They would join your church for a while. Within a year (aw, heck with a month) all Hell would break loose and they would turn the church into a battlefield.
A couple years would go by and another pastor would tell you this family now has a ‘house church’ and the father is the preacher.
I’ll let you play around with the psychology/theology of this. But they are in every town in America.
So James, just keep praying for thier conversion.
 
JustaServant said:
The whole thing strikes me as funny. The guy lists 35 of his personal critera for choosing “the best” church?
Back when I was part of evangelical/fundamentalist churches we often would get visited by ‘church hoppers’ (or as Malcolm Smith coined them, spiritually homeless).
EVERY CHURCH in the TRI-STATE area knew who these people were and groaned when they walked into church. The man walked in clutching his King James Bible, mom looked like she walked straight out of ‘Leave it to Beaver’, the kids looked like little drones. Have you ever had a four year old girl tell a teacher in Sunday School “that’s not scriptural”? I have.
Anyway, after the service the father would walk up to the preacher with a list of things his family believed and wanted to know ‘where the church stands on…’. Then they would tell you what was wrong with the last seven churches (and preachers) they were a part of. He would explain they were just ‘looking for a place to serve God’.
If (God help you) they LIKED you (or thought you might be easy to control). They would join your church for a while. Within a year (aw, heck with a month) all Hell would break loose and they would turn the church into a battlefield.
A couple years would go by and another pastor would tell you this family now has a ‘house church’ and the father is the preacher.
I’ll let you play around with the psychology/theology of this. But they are in every town in America.
So James, just keep praying for thier conversion.
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Thanks for your comments. I didn’t want to say this but I really do feel sorry for whatever church gets him since he is a zealot and a perfectionist and very pig-headed and will debate and stir up a hornet’s nest to prove his points and will use public embarrassment to get attention and command respect. I am told that they had to physically drag him out of the last church. I wrote an OP a while back when it first happened because I was shocked to learn then that these large mega Churches have armed ushers with 9 mm concealed weapons in shoulder holsters under their coats (which he saw in the commotion when they yanked him out of his seat for refusing to sit down and physically dragged him off). Ref here: CAF Post: Mega-Church Pastor’s and Usher’s carry side arms?!

I can see now that the whole “Protestant thing”, esp. the Bible-Only non-traditional variety is like a powder keg waiting to explode. Everyone and anyone can challenge the preacher at anytime with their own personal beliefs now that heterodoxy is the new orthodoxy via sola scriptura. What a mess…

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
Thanks for your comments. I didn’t want to say this but I really do feel sorry for whatever church gets him since he is a zealot and a perfectionist and very pig-headed and will debate and stir up a hornet’s nest to prove his points and will use public embarrassment to get attention and command respect. I am told that they had to physically drag him out of the last church. I wrote an OP a while back when it first happened because I was shocked to learn then that these large mega Churches have armed ushers with 9 mm concealed weapons in shoulder holsters under their coats (which he saw in the commotion when they yanked him out of his seat for refusing to sit down and physically dragged him off). Ref here: CAF Post: Mega-Church Pastor’s and Usher’s carry side arms?!

I can see now that the whole “Protestant thing”, esp. the Bible-Only non-traditional variety is like a powder keg waiting to explode. Everyone and anyone can challenge the preacher at anytime with their own personal beliefs now that heterodoxy is the new orthodoxy via sola scriptura. What a mess…

James
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It is a mess. Take this area for instance. There are evangelical/fundamentalist churches on almost every corner. None of these churches runs more than 100, most of them less than 50. What makes the matter worse is that none of these churches can get along with each other…they are locked in very steep competition. Many are splits that split off from another church split. One Church believes women wearing pants are hussies and another Church thinks they are a bunch of LIBERALS because they sing contemporary choruses and use screens. Many of these Churches think they are the ONLY CHURCH THAT GOD BLESSES because they run buses and knock EVERY DOOR IN TOWN at least once a year.
What a testimony to Scripture alone.
 
Wow. I did not realize that Protestant churches can be this way. That does sound like a mess.

The only thing that amused me about one megachurch that I pass by on a daily basis was that if you took a picture of it without it’s cross at the top it’d look like a junior college. :o Little did I realize there could be armed guards there. I don’t think I’ve seen an armed guard at a Catholic church.
 
OK - he finally replied to my question about what Substitutional Prayer is.

He says it is when you can pray over someone else in place of the actual person assuming they have some relationship with that person.

Hmmm, I had to tell him this was not a Catholic concept at all and is more like the forbidden Proxied Baptisms like Mormon’s use. I went on to explain that Catholics can pray for anyone at any place or any time - even if a person is already deceased since God is Omniscient and timeless and can hear our prayers and apply them at the time they are most beneficial (e.g. death bed mercy etc.).

From this clarification and other dialog I think I have deduced that he is into the Charismatic movement and is big on physical touch and probably imagines he has some Spiritual gift to heal people by touch. :rolleyes: I am not sure what side of this topic he stands.

I am sure I will probably get a long reply soon telling me what is wrong with the Catholic Church from all my prior answers.

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
OK - he finally replied to my question about what Substitutional Prayer is.

He says it is when you can pray over someone else in place of the actual person assuming they have some relationship with that person.

Hmmm, I had to tell him this was not a Catholic concept at all and is more like the forbidden Proxied Baptisms like Mormon’s use. I went on to explain that Catholics can pray for anyone at any place or any time - even if a person is already deceased since God is Omniscient and timeless and can hear our prayers and apply them at the time they are most beneficial (e.g. death bed mercy etc.).

From this clarification and other dialog I think I have deduced that he is into the Charismatic movement and is big on physical touch and probably imagines he has some Spiritual gift to heal people by touch. :rolleyes: I am not sure what side of this topic he stands.

I am sure I will probably get a long reply soon telling me what is wrong with the Catholic Church from all my prior answers.

James
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Interesting how you likened it to Mormon baptism after death (although, I did think of that too.) My first thought, however, was that we, as Catholics believe in the communion of saints and can pray for each other.

I guess maybe the key difference is that he is saying pray over someone, AND have some sort of proxy as the person who is being prayed over, where as we say we pray for someone to God.

:hmmm:
 
GodIsGracious said:
Interesting how you likened it to Mormon baptism after death (although, I did think of that too.) My first thought, however, was that we, as Catholics believe in the communion of saints and can pray for each other.

I guess maybe the key difference is that he is saying pray over someone, AND have some sort of proxy as the person who is being prayed over, where as we say we pray for someone to God.

:hmmm:
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I am unfamiliar with LDS teaching and practice, but I learned from your posts what “proxied baptism” is (and also what substitution(al/ary?) prayer is for your friend). Obviously the LDS does not believe in baptism as a sacrament in which the sacramental effect occurs in a present living recipient; and the LDS teaching on prayer is rather confused.

The Church does allow “proxied godparents”, correct?
 
nkbeth said:
I am unfamiliar with LDS teaching and practice, but I learned from your posts what “proxied baptism” is (and also what substitution(al/ary?) prayer is for your friend). Obviously the LDS does not believe in baptism as a sacrament in which the sacramental effect occurs in a present living recipient; and the LDS teaching on prayer is rather confused.

The Church does allow “proxied godparents”, correct?
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I think so, not sure about baptism though. I know that when I was confirmed at Pentecost this year we were told that if for whatever reason our confirmation sponsors couldn’t make it we could have a stand in for them, however it was the sponsor’s name that was recording as being our sponsor.
 
nkbeth said:
I am unfamiliar with LDS teaching and practice, but I learned from your posts what “proxied baptism” is (and also what substitution(al/ary?) prayer is for your friend). Obviously the LDS does not believe in baptism as a sacrament in which the sacramental effect occurs in a present living recipient; and the LDS teaching on prayer is rather confused.

The Church does allow “proxied godparents”, correct?
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Yes - but this is a world apart from proxied baptism since the sacrament must be performed on the actual person. The godparents are just there to attest that they will help out by their prayers and guidance in the faith and are not materially necessary to performing the actual baptism. So they just need a spokesperson to represent their agreement to these terms if they have a schedule conflict and can’t make it or if it is logistically to far for them to travel to the ceremony.

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
Yes - but this is a world apart from proxied baptism since the sacrament must be performed on the actual person. The godparents are just there to attest that they will help out by their prayers and guidance in the faith and are not materially necessary to performing the actual baptism. So they just need a spokesperson to represent their agreement to these terms if they have a schedule conflict and can’t make it or if it is logistically to far for them to travel to the ceremony.

James
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Question then, James.

In addition to this, aren’t godparents also a witness to the baptism? If they’re not there, how can they be a witness? I may be missing something.
 
GodIsGracious said:
Question then, James.

In addition to this, aren’t godparents also a witness to the baptism? If they’re not there, how can they be a witness? I may be missing something.
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The requirements of sponsoring a baptism are pretty strict but it does permit a proxy witness as long as they meet the same requirements normally imposed for Godparent as sponsor.

By Canon Law strictly speaking, a person only needs one sponsor (Godparent) for baptism — male or female, but may have two sponsors, one male and one female. In the case of an emergency, such as imminent death, no sponsor is needed.

Baptismal Sponsors. Only a practicing Catholic may act as a baptismal sponsor. The minister of Baptism, unless he knows by personal knowledge that the sponsor is qualified, shall require a testimonial letter from the pastor of the sponsor. To act as a sponsor a person must: a.) Be designated by the one baptized, the parent, guardian, pastor or minister. b.) Be one of two persons. There must be two sponsors for a Baptism – one male and one female. One of the Godparents must be a regular member of the Catholic Church, in good standing, the other, a Christian. Remember that should anything happen to the parents in the future; the Godparents are to insure that their Godchild is brought up practicing the Faith. c.) Be at least 16 years of age, unless the pastor or minister judges otherwise for just cause. d.) Lead a life in harmony with the faith and the role to be undertaken. e.) Have received all three sacraments of initiation – Baptism, Holy Eucharist and Confirmation. f.) Be canonically free to carry out this office. g.) Not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized. An excommunicated Catholic may not act as a sponsor. At the request of the parents and in accordance with ecumenical guidelines, a believing Christian may act as a Christian witness together with a Catholic Godparent. NOTE: A Catholic, if requested, may act as a Christian witness (sponsor) at a non-Catholic baptism.

The baptismal records will reflect both names - sponsor/godparent and proxy and the baptising parish must have on file binding attestations of agreement from the sponsor. I think this is a very practical thing really.

James
 
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