What is the allure of a Mass you cannot understand?

[RCIAGraduate]

Good day to all, and may all have a happy week.

I understand that some are attracted to the Tridentine or Extraordinary Masses because of the beauty and reverence they can find in them. What I want to ask though is, how does one get pass the Latin prayers or chants if they cannot understand them? Does one diligently look up them up beforehand or even learn the Latin language? Could things such as a small placards in the pews that translate the prayers from Latin to English or whatever local language help draw people in?

Have a wonderful October.

 

[Catholic4Christ]

Beauty and reverence is one reason many people prefer the Old Mass, though it is not the only reason - nor, I think, the main reason for most. I’ve been to many reverent and beautiful Ordinary Form Masses. In my experience, most people who outright prefer the Extraordinary Form prefer it for the theology its prayers express.

I’ve studied Latin for over a decade (middle school, high school, college, and grad school), and to be honest, although it helps to have some familiarity with the language, no one really speaks or understands it fluently. Even if you did, much of the Traditional Mass is prayed with a more subdued voice by the celebrant - there are some prayers you will not audibly hear from the pews.

Back in the day, hand missals were more common. I would argue that even at the OF Mass it would be good if more people had hand missals or used the booklets that many churches keep in the pews with the readings, propers, etc. Whether read before, after, or during Mass this stimulates some people’s brains into a better state of attention. At least it does for me, I can’t speak for everyone.

Even if you don’t have a hand missal, most USA parishes that celebrate Extraordinary Form Masses have the “little red booklets” that have the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin and English on facing pages. Some will also print a supplement with that day’s Propers in it. Sermons, of course, are generally in the vernacular.

I am not opposed to vernacular in the Mass, however it is worth noting that the Roman Rite has centuries of saints and holy people who attended Mass in Latin. The Church considers Latin to be a sacred language befitting divine worship, and the texts of the Second Vatican Council called for Latin to be retained in the New Mass to a greater degree than it has been in practice.

 

[40Days]

Many who assist in the Tridentine Mass have hand missals or the parish may provide paper missals.

After a while though, I personally find I don’t always follow absolutely every single word that the priest is saying…audibly or otherwise. It is just a grace to be there with Our Lord and to follow the Mass with the other senses. Simply captivating. I guess I have never once considered the language a barrier. It’s just not something to get worked up about.

But speaking of language differences, another observation is that after years of largely praying the Old Mass, there have been times where I have had greater appreciation and sense of understanding when praying a daily Mass in the Novus Ordo. That is, after going all those years to the Mass in English (childhood until a few years ago), there were so many times it just became so rote that I probably rarely thought what was really being said during the Mass.

This may sound odd, but the order, prayers, rubrics, etc just make a lot more sense to me now during a novus ordo Mass after a lot of time away.

 

[Catholic4Christ]

After a while though, I personally find I don’t always follow absolutely every single word that the priest is saying…audibly or otherwise.

Agreed, 40Days. Often the only words I read straight from my missal are the propers. After you attend for long enough, you know what the priest/servers are doing and saying in a general sense (even if you don’t have every word memorized). This opens me up to a more contemplative prayer at the Latin Mass, where I can focus on what’s happening vs. just the words being said. This makes it easier for me to unite my own prayers with the celebrant’s prayers, which are in turn united with the prayer of Jesus to the Father.

RCIAGraduate, I should have led my earlier post with this: the allure of any Mass, in any language, is the Mystery of what’s happening - we get to be at the foot of Calvary. If I were transported to the top of Mount Sinai when Moses spoke to God, or the Mount of the Beatitudes when Jesus preached there, or to Mount Calvary when He was crucified, I would be transfixed by what was happening even if I didn’t understand the Hebrew or the Aramaic or what have you. At Mass, we get to experience the Death and Resurrection - pretty cool whether in English, Spanish, Latin, or whatever language!

 

[utah_rose]

Good day to all, and may all have a happy week.

I understand that some are attracted to the Tridentine or Extraordinary Masses because of the beauty and reverence they can find in them. What I want to ask though is, how does one get pass the Latin prayers or chants if they cannot understand them? Does one diligently look up them up beforehand or even learn the Latin language? Could things such as a small placards in the pews that translate the prayers from Latin to English or whatever local language help draw people in?

Have a wonderful October.

The church we attend actually has missal so at the back of the Church with the Latin and English so you know what the priest us saying. You can order the 1962 Missals at some Catholic sites or Amazon. Another thing is too, is they follow a different church calendar do the given Mass readings are not the same as the OF Mass on Sunday, and probably not during the week. The priest usually announces it beforehand. He does though also read the Epistle and Gospel in English after reciting it in Latin at the altar. It’s not necessary to learn Latin though.

 

[JimG]

I agree with everything the previous posters have responded, especially post #2. I do not attend the EF Mass, and find that the ordinary form Mass in my area is celebrated quite reverently in English.

One thing I have noticed, however, thinking back on a childhood in which I mostly grew up experiencing the Latin Mass, is this: It is much easier, and much more common, for my mind to wander now, than it was then. Then, I had a missal and always tried to follow along with the priest. I loved the words of the Roman canon, even in translation. It was so clearly a sacrifice offered to the Father.

I knew the meaning of the common Latin prayers, such as the Confiteor and the Credo and Gloria. (Since they have finally got the translation of the Credo right, I almost exclaimed to myself, that’s just how I learned it as an altar boy in Latin!) Now, unless I make an effort to pay attention, it is easy to just let the words wash over me while my mind drifts.

I suppose that it is a good thing to use the missal, even in English.

 

[JimG]

Correction to my previous post: I mean the newest translation of the Confiteor, which is almost the same as reciting it in Latin.

 

[Corki]

Good day to all, and may all have a happy week.

I understand that some are attracted to the Tridentine or Extraordinary Masses because of the beauty and reverence they can find in them. What I want to ask though is, how does one get pass the Latin prayers or chants if they cannot understand them? Does one diligently look up them up beforehand or even learn the Latin language? Could things such as a small placards in the pews that translate the prayers from Latin to English or whatever local language help draw people in?

Have a wonderful October.

There’s a big difference between understanding** the Mass **and understanding all of the words spoken at Mass. The Mass is not supposed to be a primarily verbal experience. (except the homily) If you understand the sequence of the Mass and join your senses, it can be almost freeing.

FWIW, this is true of all Masses - not just the EF. I have been at Masses in other countries where I didn’t understand a word. I have also attended Mass with laryngitis and was unable to say any of the responses. In both cases, the attention I paid to things such as the gestures of the priest, the intonation of the prayers and the environment made it a very moving experience.

 

[ProVobis]

The EF is as much visual (if not more so) than audible. My first prayerbook had pictures of the priest’s posture with the servers which, together with some very short prayers, enabled me to follow the Mass quite adequately. My dad explained the consecration to me, and to this day “Hoc est enim Corpus Meum” has the most powerful meaning to me which the English, as spoken as a narrative, doesn’t.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

The fact that the Mass is said in a language that I don’t understand is actually very attractive to me since it instills in my mind that something exceptional to my daily life is happening at the altar. I also know that as long as I unite myself to the priest in his prayer and action, I don’t have to know each word that is being said. Nevertheless, I follow my missal to help myself follow the priest and to pay attention. I have heard that there are pew books printed for the Traditional Latin Mass so traditional parishes could use those for people without missals; however, I don’t think that would be sufficient to draw people in since they still would be confused with the Latin.

 

[StGerardMajella]

What I want to ask though is, how does one get pass the Latin prayers or chants if they cannot understand them?

Most devout Catholics utilize a Roman Missal, which contains all of of the prayers of the Mass in both Latin and English, side by side. Over time, you start to gain more understanding of the Latin language just by sheer immersion in the liturgy.

Does one diligently look up them up beforehand or even learn the Latin language?

The Roman Missal gives detailed instructions for the canon of the Mass, as well as the variable readings for the Mass. You do not need to understand Latin to follow along with the priest during the Mass as long as you have the English translation next to the Latin. Technically, you could pray internally the entire Mass in English as the priest reads the Latin aloud.

Many of the words in Latin have a close English equivalent as well, which makes certain Latin words easier to understand.

Could things such as a small placards in the pews that translate the prayers from Latin to English or whatever local language help draw people in?

These translation booklets are already readily available in most parishes that celebrate the traditional Latin Mass.

What is the allure of a Mass you cannot understand?

In all seriousness, for those of us who are attached to the traditional Latin Mass, it is truly hard to describe the attraction to this particular form of the Mass. The Latin Mass is truly “experiential” in nature, and a beckoning back to traditional modes of prayer, liturgy, and spirituality.

There is also a sense - especially in modern Western culture - that our secular culture needs the traditional Latin Mass, that we have somehow lost many of the older values that were so esteemed in past generations.

The traditional Latin Mass is the Mass of our ancestors going back many centuries. Many of us knew instinctively for many years that “something was missing” personally in our spiritual experience, and the traditional Latin Mass filled that void,

The traditional Latin Mass brings many spiritual blessings beyond number and explanation. Getting past the language issue of the utilization of Latin was, in all objectivity, a relatively minor issue.

Most traditionalists are very committed to the traditional Latin Mass for any number of reasons. I would venture that the main reason is that the culture of the traditional Latin Mass aligns with core values. The Mass is also very beautiful and reverent. The liturgy is also highly mechanized, allowing little room for the priest to “improvise”.

 

[1ke]

What I want to ask though is, how does one get pass the Latin prayers or chants if they cannot understand them?

Why do you think people cannot understand them?

The Church has been praying the prayers in Latin for close to 2000 years. Small children can learn their prayers in Latin, if someone teaches them.

 

[Mystrx]

Use a Latin/English missal. That’s how you assist best at the latin mass. Use it to follow along and understand what’s being said and done. After awhile you get familiar with the mass and its actually very easy to follow along. The young children at my parish seem to have a good grasp of the latin prayers they need to know. I seem to be learning them rather quickly myself. Other than that you just have to study up a bit like you would when learning anything new. You do not have to become fluent in latin.

My parish offers the red paper hand missals for people to use at their pleasure. I personally use a 1961 St. Joseph daily missal I bought used.

 

[kozlosap]

Most devout Catholics utilize a Roman Missal, which contains all of of the prayers of the Mass in both Latin and English, side by side. Over time, you start to gain more understanding of the Latin language just by sheer immersion in the liturgy.

The Roman Missal gives detailed instructions for the canon of the Mass, as well as the variable readings for the Mass. You do not need to understand Latin to follow along with the priest during the Mass as long as you have the English translation next to the Latin. Technically, you could pray internally the entire Mass in English as the priest reads the Latin aloud.

Many of the words in Latin have a close English equivalent as well, which makes certain Latin words easier to understand.

These translation booklets are already readily available in most parishes that celebrate the traditional Latin Mass.

In all seriousness, for those of us who are attached to the traditional Latin Mass, it is truly hard to describe the attraction to this particular form of the Mass. The Latin Mass is truly “experiential” in nature, and a beckoning back to traditional modes of prayer, liturgy, and spirituality.

There is also a sense - especially in modern Western culture - that our secular culture needs the traditional Latin Mass, that we have somehow lost many of the older values that were so esteemed in past generations.

The traditional Latin Mass is the Mass of our ancestors going back many centuries. Many of us knew instinctively for many years that “something was missing” personally in our spiritual experience, and the traditional Latin Mass filled that void,

The traditional Latin Mass brings many spiritual blessings beyond number and explanation. Getting past the language issue of the utilization of Latin was, in all objectivity, a relatively minor issue.

Most traditionalists are very committed to the traditional Latin Mass for any number of reasons. I would venture that the main reason is that the culture of the traditional Latin Mass aligns with core values. The Mass is also very beautiful and reverent. The liturgy is also highly mechanized, allowing little room for the priest to “improvise”.

So, the huge majority of Catholics that do not attend EF liturgies are not as devout as those who do? Please remember that there are still many of us around born in the 40’s and early 50’s who attended the EF every week before VII and it isn’t such a romantic dream to us, we have memories that include people praying the rosary during the mass and reading other prayer books. We should all remember that the form of the mass you attend has nothing to do with your devotion and love of Holy Mother Church.

 

[Sarcelle]

Most devout Catholics utilize a Roman Missal, which contains all of of the prayers of the Mass in both Latin and English, side by side. Over time, you start to gain more understanding of the Latin language just by sheer immersion in the liturgy.

The Roman Missal gives detailed instructions for the canon of the Mass, as well as the variable readings for the Mass. You do not need to understand Latin to follow along with the priest during the Mass as long as you have the English translation next to the Latin. Technically, you could pray internally the entire Mass in English as the priest reads the Latin aloud.

Many of the words in Latin have a close English equivalent as well, which makes certain Latin words easier to understand.

These translation booklets are already readily available in most parishes that celebrate the traditional Latin Mass.

In all seriousness, for those of us who are attached to the traditional Latin Mass, it is truly hard to describe the attraction to this particular form of the Mass. The Latin Mass is truly “experiential” in nature, and a beckoning back to traditional modes of prayer, liturgy, and spirituality.

There is also a sense - especially in modern Western culture - that our secular culture needs the traditional Latin Mass, that we have somehow lost many of the older values that were so esteemed in past generations.

The traditional Latin Mass is the Mass of our ancestors going back many centuries. Many of us knew instinctively for many years that “something was missing” personally in our spiritual experience, and the traditional Latin Mass filled that void,

The traditional Latin Mass brings many spiritual blessings beyond number and explanation. Getting past the language issue of the utilization of Latin was, in all objectivity, a relatively minor issue.

Most traditionalists are very committed to the traditional Latin Mass for any number of reasons. I would venture that the main reason is that the culture of the traditional Latin Mass aligns with core values. The Mass is also very beautiful and reverent. The liturgy is also highly mechanized, allowing little room for the priest to “improvise”.

Explain the phrase “most devout Catholics utilize the Roman missal”.

Does this mean you think that those who do not attend the EF are not as devout? Not all of us have access to the EF mass. To turn that into a moral failing on our part is quite offensive.

 

[StGerardMajella]

So, the huge majority of Catholics that do not attend EF liturgies are not as devout as those who do?

I made no such assertion.

Explain the phrase “most devout Catholics utilize the Roman missal”.

For those attending the traditional Latin Mass, most traditional Catholics eventually gravitate to having their own personal Roman Missal which they can utilize to follow along with the liturgy. The Missal contains canon of the Mass in English and Latin, along with the variable portions - readings, etc. - for each Mass of the year.

Does this mean you think that those who do not attend the EF are not as devout? Not all of us have access to the EF mass. To turn that into a moral failing on our part is quite offensive.

I made no such assertion.

We should all remember that the form of the mass you attend has nothing to do with your devotion and love of Holy Mother Church.

In the spirit of Christian charity, we should also remember to avoid making false accusations against others, especially in a public forum.

 

[Sarcelle]

I made no such assertion.

For those attending the traditional Latin Mass, most traditional Catholics eventually gravitate to having their own personal Roman Missal which they can utilize to follow along with the liturgy. The Missal contains canon of the Mass in English and Latin, along with the variable portions - readings, etc. - for each Mass of the year.

I made no such assertion.

In the spirit of Christian charity, we should also remember to avoid making false accusations against others, especially in a public forum.

You previously did not make the qualification of devout Catholics who attend the EF mass. You plainly said most devout Catholics. This means Catholics in general. Out of the general set of Catholics most of the devout Catholics own the Roman missal. This is what I understood out of your post.

If you said devout Catholics who attend the EF mass, I would have known you were just referring to a subset of devout Catholics. I wrote what I wrote out of basic understanding of your post not to falsely accuse you. This is why I asked for further explanation. However I do apologize for the part dealing with moral failings.

As you can see I am not the only one who has misunderstood your post.

 

[StGerardMajella]

You previously did not make the qualification of devout Catholics who attend the EF mass. You plainly said most devout Catholics. This means Catholics in general. Out of the general set of Catholics most of the devout Catholics own the Roman missal. This is what I understood out of your post.

With all due respect, the post is in the Traditional Catholic sub-forum, and the original post is inquiring as to the traditional Latin Mass. We are not discussing other liturgical forms.

You can politely ask for clarification without making assumptions (and accusations) if you fail to understand the purpose of the thread and the continuity of the discussion.

 

[Sarcelle]

With all due respect, the post is in the Traditional Catholic sub-forum, and the original post is inquiring as to the traditional Latin Mass. We are not discussing other liturgical forms.

You can politely ask for clarification without making assumptions (and accusations) if you fail to understand the purpose of the thread and the continuity of the discussion.

I apologized about the statement on the moral failings in my previous post.

I agree it was uncalled for.

I’m out of here before I get into deeper trouble.

 

[ProVobis]

So, the huge majority of Catholics that do not attend EF liturgies are not as devout as those who do? Please remember that there are still many of us around born in the 40’s and early 50’s who attended the EF every week before VII and it isn’t such a romantic dream to us, we have memories that include people praying the rosary during the mass and reading other prayer books.

From my experience the EF as celebrated today is far different than the Mass which was celebrated before Vatican II. Maybe because the people who are there are there because for the most part they WANT to be there. And that includes the younger folks, who although they may not want to drive an hour every Sunday, nonetheless show up at least occasionally to experience the 1700-yr + “treasure” of the Church. Those who disdain Church Latin and anything that’s associated with it are of no concern to them.