What is the Biblical basis for the papacy as AntiChrist?

[Mannyfit75]

Well this is one of the reasons my girlfriend doesn’t want me to become a catholic priest, but it really doesn’t matter to me if the catholic church is the anti-christ or not; the pope will forgive me.

First of all you cannot be a Catholic priest. You are not Catholic to begin with. You have to be baptized and confirmed Catholic to discern the priesthood.

With all the scandals in the church I could see how it would be easy for some to think that.

The scandals in the Church has lead many issues and in most cases any evil can always bring out good about it. The Vatican has taken steps and change policies concerning the sex scandals and religious vocation.

In fact the new priest coming out of the seminary are John Paul II’s priest because they held orthodox Catholic beliefs.

Those who commit the sex scandals are no doubt in my mind homosexual men who held liberal views on Catholicism and do not in fact believe the authority of the Magisterium. They should go to jail.

As I told my girlfriend though the catholic priesthood has such a high demand for priests they are willing to accept any bum who walks in the front door who wants to be a priests and that is more important to me than if the church is the anti-christ or not.

Not really? I am US Army Soldier discerning the priesthood. Discernment takes year. This discernment involves prayer and hours before the Blessed Sacraments. The director will interview you, and before you do all that. Proof of baptisal record and confirmation record needs to be brought to the Office of Vacation Director.

The interview will begin with numerous questions then a psychological exam will be even conducted by doctors. The questions will involve the orientation of the man. If he fails, he will not be admitted into the seminary.

Seminary life itself consist of studying, praying the Breviary every morning at 7:30 AM and again at 7:30 PM. There is Mass every day. Not to mention Apolastate word with the local parishes nearby.

Here are a couple sites that offer a very interesting analysis of the Catholic Church.

A different perspective of the Catholic Church
Russian Orthodox and Catholics Churches
Another interesting topic

Those are Anti-Catholic sources which are full of lies. I would no go there. That site has been refuted already.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Sublime Prince:

Whats interesting is on one of these sites they point out the ‘all seeing eye’ and the ‘perfect triangle’ that some of the catholic churches have in those photos. Many critics critize masonry for these symbols and claim they comes from an ancient egyptian religion, but maybe in reality they were symbols in the catholic church a very long time ago that can only be found in a minority of churches around the globe today.

That is just theory and not proven. Um, the Catholic Churches does not even have the “all seeing eye.”

I do notice Sublime Prince, based on your thread you seem to or do have an “Anti-Catholic” agenda.

I see a person here who can easily be manipulated by whatever some Anti-Catholic Protestant can post. You are a type of person who would fall pray to Jack Chick’s tract on the Death Cookie and his other Anti-Catholic material

 

[Sublime_Prince]

First of all you cannot be a Catholic priest. You are not Catholic to begin with. You have to be baptized and confirmed Catholic to discern the priesthood.

well I am baptised, the other part is what I am in the process of doing now.

Not really? I am US Army Soldier discerning the priesthood. Discernment takes year. This discernment involves prayer and hours before the Blessed Sacraments. The director will interview you, and before you do all that. Proof of baptisal record and confirmation record needs to be brought to the Office of Vacation Director.

The interview will begin with numerous questions then a psychological exam will be even conducted by doctors. The questions will involve the orientation of the man. If he fails, he will not be admitted into the seminary.

Seminary life itself consist of studying, praying the Breviary every morning at 7:30 AM and again at 7:30 PM. There is Mass every day. Not to mention Apolastate word with the local parishes nearby. .

Doesn’t sound like a lot of work compared to what many other professions demand.

 

[JonNC]

=Mannyfit75;4148969]He did that is why he left.

Actually, he did after he was forced out.

Christian unification will instill Christians to unity.

OK

If Lutheran believes the “office of the Papacy” is the Anti-Christ. You wrote it in another thread that you believe the Office of the Papacy to be Anti-Christ. So I don’t think why the Vatican would condone Lutherans who held such heretical view.

No, I said there are papal teachings that are in opposition to scripture, and therefore anti (against) Christ. I also said that the confessional position can change. Obviously, the Vatican thinks it worthwhile to be in discussion with us. They wouldn’t if they held your absolute view.

I think unity is possible with Eastern Orthodoxy but not with Protestants. Their doctrines have changed through the years and it does not even fit with Catholic theology. Unless Protestantism itself reverse its view on justification on faith alone and Scripture alone and affirms that Jesus Christ established One Church through Peter, and recognized the Primacy of Peter… Perhaps then… I will believe it.

The orthodox view of the primacy of the papacy is at least as rigid as ours. Why would you think chances with them is any greater.
I’ll tell you what; the day the Othodox recognize the bishop of Rome, The Pope, as more than “first among equals”, I will too.

Like I said Protestantism theology differs from Catholic theology. This itself will not cause unity./

Like I said, the power of the Holy Spirit can bring us together.

Jon

 

[Mannyfit75]

well I am baptised, the other part is what I am in the process of doing now.

You can’t be a Catholic priest. Your post seen to show doubts in Catholicism. A Non-Catholic Christians who wish to become Catholic should have no doubt in his mind that the Catholic Church is the “pillar and bulwark of truth”

Doesn’t sound like a lot of work compared to what many other professions demand.

It does. What I give out is just a some of the necessary things, a Catholic discerning the priesthood must do. I have been to Military Discernment for the Priesthood event and I visited the Catholic Seminary at St. Charles Barromeo in PA. The Seminary is very orthodox and conservative. The men are straight and some have girlfriends who support their decision for the priesthood.

When I started discernment, I had a girlfriend but I broke it up because there were issues I could not agree with her such as she tells me she does not desire marriage life. If I was called to a married life, I would want to marry. However, now I feel the call for me is for the priesthood and be a celibate man for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Sublime_Prince]

I see a person here who can easily be manipulated by whatever some Anti-Catholic Protestant can post. You are a type of person who would fall pray to Jack Chick’s tract on the Death Cookie and his other Anti-Catholic material

Of course I would fall for Jack Chick’s tract, he makes a lot of money off of it !

Can’t you see the dollar signs? I bet I could make a fortune if I became a priest for a few years and then later quit and wrote a plethera of books claiming the church was the anti-christ and showing proof of how I know this from when I was a priest. Maybe I could strike a deal with Jack Chick and get a big payout? Can’t you see the headlines on his website? “Former Catholic priest admits Catholic’s secret anti-christ agenda”.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Actually, he did after he was forced out.

He was force out because of his arrogance.

No, I said there are papal teachings that are in opposition to scripture, and therefore anti (against) Christ. I also said that the confessional position can change. Obviously, the Vatican thinks it worthwhile to be in discussion with us. They wouldn’t if they held your absolute view.

Really? I am Catholic and I see nothing that the Pope declared that is in opposition to Scripture. The Pope only declare two infallible statements, the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

These do not oppose Scripture. The Immaculate Conception is implied in Luke 1:28 and the Assumption is based on Revelation 12:1-5, and the tradition of the Eastern Christianity. The Eastern Christians believe in the Dormition which goes into the details at the final days of Mary, that she died and was assumed body and soul into heaven.

So no. It is not Anti-Scripture or Anti-Christ. The Anti-Christ is the denial of Jesus Christ as the Messiah and the denial of Jesus as the Son of God. The Pope like any Catholic recites the Creed. He believes that Jesus is the Messiah. In fact the current Pope wrote books about the Jesus Christ. Deus Caritas Est, and Jesus of Nazareth.

I suggest you read those books. I have and none of it is hardly Anti-Christ.

The orthodox view of the primacy of the papacy is at least as rigid as ours. Why would you think chances with them is any greater.
I’ll tell you what; the day the Othodox recognize the bishop of Rome, The Pope, as more than “first among equals”, I will too.

The Eastern Orthodox Church does not view the Papacy as the Anti-Christ. There are continue dialogues between Catholic theologians and Orthodox theologians on the issue of Papacy. The record statement at Ravanna Italy came to an recognization of Peter’s Rome and the Early Pope.

this article zenit.org/article-21815?l=english

the Ravenna official statement:

zenit.org/article-21012?l=english

This is just one step closer to unity for both Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

Like I said, the power of the Holy Spirit can bring us together.

Jon

There will be unity once Protestantism abandon their theology. Besides the Early Church Fathers never taught Bible Alone and Faith Alone.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Of course I would fall for Jack Chick’s tract, he makes a lot of money off of it !

Jack Chick is an idiot. He has no clue what he is talking about.

His tract has been refuted by Vick:

catholic-tube.com/video-channels/apologetics-channel#

Can’t you see the dollar signs? I bet I could make a fortune if I became a priest for a few years and then later quit and wrote a plethera of books claiming the church was the anti-christ and showing proof of how I know this from when I was a priest. Maybe I could strike a deal with Jack Chick and get a big payout? Can’t you see the headlines on his website? “Former Catholic priest admits Catholic’s secret anti-christ agenda”.

Let me give you hint about deceivers. Those who enter the Church out of false pretenses are lying to themselves. It makes you no different than Anani’as with his wife Sapphi’ra, whom Peter killed in Acts 5. They lied to the Holy Spirit.

If you intend to join the Catholic Church and attempt to destroy, you will be liable to judgement by God.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Making money is hardly a Christian thing.

 

[Sublime_Prince]

Making money is hardly a Christian thing.

Then why do I see so many christians driving Cadillacs?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Then why do I see so many christians driving Cadillacs?

Because they need to go from point A to point B. Do you expect to walk to Walmart 5 miles away on foot or do you want to drive?

 

[Sublime_Prince]

Because they need to go from point A to point B. Do you expect to walk to Walmart 5 miles away on foot or do you want to drive?

Oh I didn’t realize that? Next time I need to go from point A to B I will drive a Cadillac and not a Ford. Got any Cadillacs you don’t need?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Oh I didn’t realize that? Next time I need to go from point A to B I will drive a Cadillac and not a Ford. Got any Cadillacs you don’t need?

You could buy a Ford. Second, Christians who can afford to buy it could.

 

[JonNC]

Mannyfit75;4149034]
Really? I am Catholic and I see nothing that the Pope declared that is in opposition to Scripture. The Pope only declare two infallible statements, the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
These do not oppose Scripture. The Immaculate Conception is implied in Luke 1:28 and the Assumption is based on Revelation 12:1-5, and the tradition of the Eastern Christianity. The Eastern Christians believe in the Dormition which goes into the details at the final days of Mary, that she died and was assumed body and soul into heaven.

Actually, Luther believed those things, too. So I’ll clarify by stating that the errors of which I speak are on
papal infallibility
intercession of saints and the BVM
purgatory
justification (though there has been good movement in this area lately)

So no. It is not Anti-Scripture or Anti-Christ. The Anti-Christ is the denial of Jesus Christ as the Messiah and the denial of Jesus as the Son of God. The Pope like any Catholic recites the Creed. He believes that Jesus is the Messiah. In fact the current Pope wrote books about the Jesus Christ. Deus Caritas Est, and Jesus of Nazareth.

Sigh!! No Lutheran that I am aware of questions the faith of Pope Benedict XVI. He is clearly a great Christian man and leader. I have often stated that I think JP II was the finest Chrstian leader of my lifetime. The term is used in reference to the office, which Lutherans believe has not the power to bind the consciences of Christians, specifically on things not directly addressed in scripture.

Not long ago I OP’d a thread proposing that the Lutheran Confessions drop the term anti-christ. It was used in the 16th century as a polemic, and interferes in 21st century dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans. We can clearly and forcefully state our disagreements with Rome using terms that don’t in and of themselves produce hostility. I stand by my position, even more firmly in light of this discussion.

The Eastern Orthodox Church does not view the Papacy as the Anti-Christ. There are continue dialogues between Catholic theologians and Orthodox theologians on the issue of Papacy. The record statement at Ravanna Italy came to an recognization of Peter’s Rome and the Early Pope.

I did not mean to imply that Orthodoxy had adopted Luther’s position. Sorry. I only meant to say that I don’t believe the Orthodox are ready to accept the papacy as the Catholic Church does. Thanks for the article. I shall read it.

Jon

 

[Mannyfit75]

Actually, Luther believed those things, too. So I’ll clarify by stating that the errors of which I speak are on
papal infallibility
intercession of saints and the BVM
purgatory
justification (though there has been good movement in this area lately)

Papal Infallibility is implied in Matthew 16:18 and Matthew 18:18. It is also mention, in Luke. These are not errors.

Intercession of the Saints is Biblical and the Blessed Virgin Mary is also Biblical. Purgatory is implied in the Bible.

Sigh!! No Lutheran that I am aware of questions the faith of Pope Benedict XVI. He is clearly a great Christian man and leader. I have often stated that I think JP II was the finest Chrstian leader of my lifetime. The term is used in reference to the office, which Lutherans believe has not the power to bind the consciences of Christians, specifically on things not directly addressed in scripture.

There is. Read Matthew 16:16-19:

"16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. **And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. **

According to this passage and the passage in Matthew 18:18, you are wrong. “18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.”

You say another thing the Scripture contradicts you.

Not long ago I OP’d a thread proposing that the Lutheran Confessions drop the term anti-christ. It was used in the 16th century as a polemic, and interferes in 21st century dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans. We can clearly and forcefully state our disagreements with Rome using terms that don’t in and of themselves produce hostility. I stand by my position, even more firmly in light of this discussion.

Yet there are those Lutherans who still believe the Pope is the Anti-Christ. This is Anti-Catholicism.

I did not mean to imply that Orthodoxy had adopted Luther’s position. Sorry. I only meant to say that I don’t believe the Orthodox are ready to accept the papacy as the Catholic Church does. Thanks for the article. I shall read it.

Jon

They will. Read the document of Ravenna. It will take probably 25-100 yrs. It will happen…Both the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church will be One.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Oh I didn’t realize that? Next time I need to go from point A to B I will drive a Cadillac and not a Ford. Got any Cadillacs you don’t need?

Nope.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I have never heard this one. When I have heard the word tribulation, I have always heard it in the context of a seven year period in the future which may or may not be preceded by an event called the rapture of the church.

I suppose if you do believe that we are in the tribulation right now that you must come up with some person or institution that is the antiChrist, even if it doesn’t totally match all of the relevant Scripture passages.

Now I disagree, but at least it makes a little more logical sense given this assumption.

Are you pre, mid, or post ?​

Or are you a-mill, & not pre-mill, or post-mill ?

It gets confusing…

 

[With_Questions]

Are you pre, mid, or post ?​

Or are you a-mill, & not pre-mill, or post-mill ?

It gets confusing…

I honestly don’t know.