What is the book of Mormon all about

[ParkerD]

I mean this:

Heavenly father was under probation? Imposed by whom and for what?

Ricko,
I hope you have understood clearly that Mormon beliefs have never included the idea that Heavenly Father was ever in the past “under probation”. Jesus had the opportunity to sin, but being perfect He chose right at every single moment of His life, and did not have a single weakness or imperfection. Heavenly Father chose to design the plan of salvation because He wanted to give us the opportunity to advance to a state of perfect joy and perfect love and perfect understanding, like unto Himself and His Beloved First Born Son who had already advanced. The LDS focus of understanding and gratitude centers in the atonement of Jesus Christ, whom the Father offered by sending Him to earth to suffer for our sins and imperfections so that we can inherit what Christ rightfully is heir to. It does not help us to try and figure out how Heavenly Father received His perfected immortal body–I don’t think He intends for us to spend time thinking about it, because it is out of our realm of comprehension, and is not needful for our progress in this life. Our progress should center in following the example of His Son. He is whom we should trust and believe in, as He believes in us.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Attempting to discredit my experiences would definitely help the LDS reputation. You can say whatever you wish. I know the truth. God knows the truth. I have said what I needed to say, and I am done with this.

It is standard operation, you leave, there will be Mormons who attempt to discredit you. To slander your character. Including one or two Mormons who post here. It is what they are taught to believe about people who leave. I rarely, if ever, use the word “cult” to describe Mormonism, but in this area of their beliefs and behaviors, most definitely it is very cultish.

 

[jean8]

and do Mormons think more of it then they do about the Bible, How wrote the book of Mormon

Bill,
Yes, Mormons do think more of the words of Joseph Smith than the Word of God. 2Tim.2;13 They check the Bible for errors using the BOM
The writings of mormonism keeps changing. BTW, Joseph Smith died in a gun fiight in a saloon. He had several wives also.
Look up Beyond Mormonism.com An Elders Story.It’s a good read. I don’t know if this testimony is still available. I have a copy of it somewhere.
Mormonism is one of the largest cults in the world.
They believe Jesus is the brother of Lucifer. You can find out about this on the net. Go to www.concernedchristians.org This lady wrote a book titled, Out of Mormonism, by Judy Robertson. The Temple ceremonies are bazaar, and very silly.

God bless,
jean

 

[xixxvmcm85]

It is standard operation, you leave, there will be Mormons who attempt to discredit you. To slander your character. Including one or two Mormons who post here. It is what they are taught to believe about people who leave. I rarely, if ever, use the word “cult” to describe Mormonism, but in this area of their beliefs and behaviors, most definitely it is very cultish.

Sadly, this has been my experience as well. It’s one of the ugly cultural foibles of Mormons. I understand it’s a stereotype, but it’s one that resonates with my own journey out. I still haven’t figured out who, but someone in my old ward began rumors about me once I had my name removed from the rolls, one of which had an awful side effect on my father. In so many Mormons’ minds, the LDS church isn’t just true, it’s obviously true so when a member leaves, the only way to keep this viewpoint in tact is by assuming that the member must be wallowing in some kind of unrepentant sin.

I’m slowly regaining my reputation among some Mormon friends of mine once they learned of my conversion to Catholicism. The particular sins of which I was accused are also forbidden by the Catholic Church rendering their assumptions silly.

 

[Christian55]

Last update - 00:00 10/11/2008
U.S. Jewish group to Mormons: Stop baptizing Holocaust victims
By Associated Press
Tags: Holocaust, Mormons

This article reveals an offensive and deceitful Mormon practice-performing posthumous baptisms of Jews who died in Nazi concentration camps. I would urge all of you to read this article and others related to it.

What right does the Mormon church have to take the names of the deceased and baptize them into the Mormon church. Can any one really know what the Mormon’s are doing with peoples names?

Here are a few quotes from the article named above:

“Holocaust survivors said Monday they are through trying to negotiate with the Mormon Church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.”

“Using genealogy records, the church also baptizes people who have died from all over the world and from different religions. Mormons stand in as proxies for the person being baptized and immerse themselves in a baptismal pool.”

If the Mormons are performing these rituals for the dead, what are they doing with names of the living.

I wonder what was done with Anna Scott’s name, when she joined the Mormon church and what happened to her name after she left the Mormon Church. I doubt she will ever know.

I urge all to following this link and read the article in full:

haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1036093.html

 

[Christian55]

This is another link to a very informative article on the Mormon religion:
exmormon.org/tract2.htm

TO THOSE WHO ARE INVESTIGATING “MORMONISM,” By RICHARD PACKHAM

(© 1998, 2002, 2005, 2007 Richard Packham. Permission granted to reproduce for non-commercial purposes, provided text is not changed and this copyright notice is included)

Here is a quote from the article:

"Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and “eternal”, have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one “everlasting” position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

• The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father); NOTES
• the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);
• Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven); NOTES
• the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God’s priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978); NOTES
• Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner’s blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities); NOTES

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, “eternal,” “everlasting,” to govern the church “forevermore.” All have been abandoned by the present church."

Here is another quote from the article:

"Mormonism includes many other unusual teachings which you will probably not be told about until you have been in the church for a long time. These teachings are not revealed to investigators or new converts because those people are not yet considered ready to have more than “milk” as doctrine. The Mormons also probably realize that if investigators knew of these unusual teachings they would not join the church. In addition to those mentioned elsewhere in this article, the following are noteworthy: NOTES

* God was once a man like us.
* God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
* God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
* God ("Heavenly Father") has at least one wife, our "Mother in Heaven," but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
* Jesus was married.
* We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
* There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
* Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
* Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
* We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.
* The "Lord" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from "God the Father" ("Elohim").
* In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.
* Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.
* Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.
* The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.
* Not only will human beings be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals - everything that has ever lived on earth - will be resurrected and dwell in heaven.
* Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow.
* Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules the waters.
* The sun receives its light from the star Kolob.
* If a Gentile becomes Mormon, the Holy Ghost actually purges his Gentile blood and replaces it with Israelite blood.
* A righteous Mormon will actually see the face of God in the Mormon temple.
* You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand."

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Christian55. Welcome to the forums!

"Mormonism includes many other unusual teachings which you will probably not be told about until you have been in the church for a long time. These teachings are not revealed to investigators or new converts because those people are not yet considered ready to have more than “milk” as doctrine. The Mormons also probably realize that if investigators knew of these unusual teachings they would not join the church. In addition to those mentioned elsewhere in this article, the following are noteworthy: NOTES

* God was once a man like us.
* God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
* God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
* God ("Heavenly Father") has at least one wife, our "Mother in Heaven," but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
* Jesus was married.
* We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
* There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
* Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
* Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
* We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.
* The "Lord" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from "God the Father" ("Elohim").
* In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.
* Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.
* Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.
* The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.
* Not only will human beings be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals - everything that has ever lived on earth - will be resurrected and dwell in heaven.
* Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow.
* Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules the waters.
* The sun receives its light from the star Kolob.
* If a Gentile becomes Mormon, the Holy Ghost actually purges his Gentile blood and replaces it with Israelite blood.
* A righteous Mormon will actually see the face of God in the Mormon temple.
* You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand."

You forgot one: We regularly clip our horns and tail so that our true identity as demons isn’t revealed.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Catholic20064]

Good afternoon Christian55. Welcome to the forums!

You forgot one: We regularly clip our horns and tail so that our true identity as demons isn’t revealed.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

When I was baptized Catholic, my horns and tail disappeared.

 

[ricko]

Good afternoon Christian55. Welcome to the forums!

You forgot one: We regularly clip our horns and tail so that our true identity as demons isn’t revealed.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

A church that keeps changing is built on quicksand not rock.

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon ricko. I hope you are doing well today!

A church that keeps changing is built on quicksand not rock.

I’m assuming you mean they are symbolically built on quicksand? If you mean literally, I’m going to have to disagree with you. But, I might agree with your statement if I knew for sure what you mean by “changing”. Perhaps you would like to clarify?

Anyways, that’s a pretty vague and random statment. What is your explanation as to it’s relevancy in context to the discussions going on in this thread?

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[ricko]

Good afternoon ricko. I hope you are doing well today!

I’m assuming you mean they are symbolically built on quicksand? If you mean literally, I’m going to have to disagree with you. But, I might agree with your statement if I knew for sure what you mean by “changing”. Perhaps you would like to clarify?

Anyways, that’s a pretty vague and random statment. What is your explanation as to it’s relevancy in context to the discussions going on in this thread?

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Reference post #444. Do the Mormons still believe all that stuff or has your position changed on some of them.

Have you shook hands with any angels lately?

 

[Christian55]

Follow link to article entitled, Failed Prophecies of Joseph Smith: (Copyright © 1997 Institute for Religious Research. All rights reserved)

irr.org/mit/js-failed-prophecies.html

The article quotes the seven prophecies from “Latter-day Saint scriptures or the History of the Church (HC), a seven volume history published under the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon.)”

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon ricko! How are you today?

Reference post #444. Do the Mormons still believe all that stuff or has your position changed on some of them.

OK, thanks for clarifying your meaning. Your question assumes, incorrectly, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has taught all of the things in post #444. A more appropriate question would be: Are all of the things on that list things that the Church has taught and if so, does the Church still teach them? Also, are the points being represented correctly and in the proper context?

In another post I will go through that list and provide answers to these question.

Have you shook hands with any angels lately?

Yes, I have shook hands with angels lately.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Christian55]

Last update - 00:00 10/11/2008
U.S. Jewish group to Mormons: Stop baptizing Holocaust victims
By Associated Press
Tags: Holocaust, Mormons

This article reveals an offensive and deceitful Mormon practice-performing posthumous baptisms of Jews who died in Nazi concentration camps. I would urge all of you to read this article, by Associated Press, and others related to it. A documentary also aired on TV about this practice. The Mormon representatives did not deny taking names of Jews, who died during the Holocaust, and performing “posthumous baptisms” in the Mormon Temple.

What right does the Mormon church have to take the names of the deceased and baptize them into the Mormon church? Can any one really know what the Mormon’s are doing with peoples names?

Here are a few quotes from the article named above:

“Holocaust survivors said Monday they are through trying to negotiate with the Mormon Church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.”

“Using genealogy records, the church also baptizes people who have died from all over the world and from different religions. Mormons stand in as proxies for the person being baptized and immerse themselves in a baptismal pool.”

If the Mormons are performing these rituals for the dead, what are they doing with names of the living.

I wonder what was done with Anna Scott’s name, when she joined the Mormon church and what happened to her name after she left the Mormon Church. I doubt she will ever know.

I urge all to following this link and read the article in full:

haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1036093.html

 

[zerinus]

Last update - 00:00 10/11/2008
U.S. Jewish group to Mormons: Stop baptizing Holocaust victims
By Associated Press
Tags: Holocaust, Mormons

This article reveals an offensive and deceitful Mormon practice-performing posthumous baptisms of Jews who died in Nazi concentration camps. I would urge all of you to read this article, by Associated Press, and others related to it. A documentary also aired on TV about this practice. The Mormon representatives did not deny taking names of Jews, who died during the Holocaust, and performing “posthumous baptisms” in the Mormon Temple.

What right does the Mormon church have to take the names of the deceased and baptize them into the Mormon church? Can any one really know what the Mormon’s are doing with peoples names?

Here are a few quotes from the article named above:

“Holocaust survivors said Monday they are through trying to negotiate with the Mormon Church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.”

“Using genealogy records, the church also baptizes people who have died from all over the world and from different religions. Mormons stand in as proxies for the person being baptized and immerse themselves in a baptismal pool.”

I read that article, and the whole thing sounds to me like a storm in a teacup. The Church has done enough to accommodate the wishes of the Jewish lobby groups who are opposed to this LDS practice, and they are still not satisfied. Some of their claims are ridiculous. The idea that they become “Mormons” as a result of this practice is absurd and laughable. My own opinion is that the Church made a mistake to seek to accommodate their wishes in the first place. It has nothing to do with them. A dead person basically has no rights under the law—with the possible exception of how his estate should be divided if he has left a will. Apart from that, once you are dead, you have no status under the law. The LDS Church is not breaking any law, or even moral code by performing vicarious baptisms for the deceased in the temple. If you don’t believe that it has any effect, what difference does it make to you anyway? If you believe that it does make a difference, then why aren’t you a Mormon?

If the Mormons are performing these rituals for the dead, what are they doing with names of the living.

I wonder what was done with Anna Scott’s name, when she joined the Mormon church and what happened to her name after she left the Mormon Church. I doubt she will ever know.

I urge all to following this link and read the article in full:

haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1036093.html

LOL! Sounds like you need help with your paranoia. A visit to a psychiatrist might be helpful.

 

[GodIsGracious]

If you don’t believe that it has any effect, what difference does it make to you anyway? If you believe that it does make a difference, then why aren’t you a Mormon?.

And this is exactly why I cringe when other religious groups (Jews and even Catholics) make a big deal out of this proxy baptism. It gives the appearance of allowing some validity to the Mormon erroneous belief of baptism after death.

Although, I will say this, I don’t want my name in some Mormon geneological database, especially if it shows someone performed some sort of baptism on me by proxy after I died. While it doesn’t mean that the baptism is even valid, it shows a false number of Mormons.

And this is what the Jews and even Catholics, don’t like. It’s not that anyone is saying the baptism is valid, we just don’t want to be in your database of your false religion.

 

[zerinus]

While it doesn’t mean that the baptism is even valid, it shows a false number of Mormons.

It does not show a “false number” of anything. Those baptized are not “numbered as Mormons”.

 

[twopekinguys]

Taken from the article. “In 1995, the church agreed not to perform baptisms or other rites for Holocaust victims, except in the very rare instances when they have living descendants who are Mormon”

The lds agreed to only baptize ancestors of **living **members, but yet failed to live up to their end of the bargain.

Mormons are the first ones to scream they aren’t getting the respect they feel they deserve, yet the refuse to offer the same respect to others of different faiths.

While lds say this is merely an “offer” to the deceased person, and they have free will to accept or reject the “offer”, listing a posthumous baptism on a genealogical website or database gives the impression that the person is really lds. Since the International Genealogical Index is operated by the lds, it furthers that impression.

100 years from now, John Doe is going to look at those records and see Uncle Bob, or Aunt Mary on there, and think he has an lds heritage. That is misleading. At the very least, if they are going to list them on that index, it should be listed that it was a proxy baptism, and that the person is not officially listed as a member of the lds church.

It is my understanding that only ancestors of living mormons are to be baptized posthumously. Obviously, this is not being enforced, or why would President Obama’s mother have been posthumously baptized?

 

[GodIsGracious]

Taken from the article. “In 1995, the church agreed not to perform baptisms or other rites for Holocaust victims, except in the very rare instances when they have living descendants who are Mormon”

The lds agreed to only baptize ancestors of **living **members, but yet failed to live up to their end of the bargain.

Mormons are the first ones to scream they aren’t getting the respect they feel they deserve, yet the refuse to offer the same respect to others of different faiths.

While lds say this is merely an “offer” to the deceased person, and they have free will to accept or reject the “offer”, listing a posthumous baptism on a genealogical website or database gives the impression that the person is really lds. Since the International Genealogical Index is operated by the lds, it furthers that impression.

100 years from now, John Doe is going to look at those records and see Uncle Bob, or Aunt Mary on there, and think he has an lds heritage. That is misleading. At the very least, if they are going to list them on that index, it should be listed that it was a proxy baptism, and that the person is not officially listed as a member of the lds church.

It is my understanding that only ancestors of living mormons are to be baptized posthumously. Obviously, this is not being enforced, or why would President Obama’s mother have been posthumously baptized?

[Red emphasis mine.]

EXACTLY! And that’s what I’m getting at and others who don’t want their dead relatives baptised by proxy. Regardless of what zerinus, or anyone else for that matter, says, it shows these people being in a Mormon geneological database with having had a baptism done. Period.

And while I didn’t say it, I did think about the “future” John Doe looking at those records and the conclusions he could possibly draw.

And I didn’t know the Mormon’s posthumously baptized President Obama’s mother. The nerve. Seriously.

 

[Finrock]

OK, ricko, here are simle clarifications from that list of “doctrines”.

* God was once a man like us. True, as long as one understands what they are saying.
* God has a tangible body of flesh and bone. True doctrine. Taught by the Church.
* God lives on a planet near the star Kolob. Not true doctrine. The Church doesn't or has it taught any doctrine pertaining to God living on a planet. Kolob, true, God actually has spatiality, true. God living on a planet near Kolob, not true.
* God ("Heavenly Father") has at least one wife, our "Mother in Heaven," but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her. True to the extent that we believe there is a Heavenly Mother. That is all that the Church has taught about her. This, too, is in the non-essential category.
* Jesus was married. This was never taught by the Church.
* We can become like God and rule over our own universe. Church teaches that we can become like God. Specifics like ruling universes aren't doctrine, never have been.
* There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds. This has never been Church doctrine.
* Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father. Church teaches we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father, including Jesus and Lucifer. Critics over emphasize the fact that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers and try to attach a connotation that they are then somehow similar. Again, shock value.
* Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife. Never taught by the Church. Never doctrine.
* We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him. Church teaches we should pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ (thus following the pattern given by Jesus Himself during His mortal ministry). We should not try to feel a personal relationship to Jesus in exclusion of the other members of the Godhead.
* The "Lord" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from "God the Father" ("Elohim"). The Church teaches that Jesus Christ is Jehovah of the old testament. Although Elohim often denotes God the Father, it does not do so exclusively. Jesus can also be called Elohim.
* In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife. Although this fits in to LDS soteriology, it's an undue emphasis of the fact. The Church teaches that one must be married in order to be exalted. Number of wives is an irrelevant point and not emphasized at all.
* Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life. The Church does teach we live as spirits in the pre-existence with Heavenly Father. The Church has never taught as doctrine that whether we are born Mormon or savages, etc. has anything to do with our pre-existence.
* Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned. This is not doctrine, nor has it been.
* The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere. It is true that the Church teaches the Garden of Eden was on the American continent. Specific details are not doctrine. This is another non-essential doctrine.
* Not only will human beings be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals - everything that has ever lived on earth - will be resurrected and dwell in heaven. The Church teaches that all creatures will take part in the ressurrection.
* Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow. This isn't doctrine of the Church. It's nonsense.
* Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules the waters. This isn't doctrine of the Church. This is a misinterpretation of a scripture in D&C 61.
* The sun receives its light from the star Kolob. This was never doctrine of the Church. It is nonsense.
* If a Gentile becomes Mormon, the Holy Ghost actually purges his Gentile blood and replaces it with Israelite blood. This is nonsense as well. Never doctrine of the Church.
* A righteous Mormon will actually see the face of God in the Mormon temple. The Church teaches that any person (Mormon or not) can see and know that God lives. In general it is believed that God can reveal Himself in His temples, but how this statement is worded just isn't correct.
* You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand." Color of the hair test is nonsense. Offering to shake hands is doctrine taught by the Church. Again, only really emphasized by the critics. Full text can be read in D&C 129.

Kind Regards,
Finrock