What is the book of Mormon all about

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If you thought I thought Joseph Smith was perfect, then you were wrong.
So why do you follow someone who isn’t perfect? Why do you stand up for a criminal?

And please, if you think that $2.86 is no big deal, consider what year it was. 1826. I’m sure that was a lot more money back then.
 
So why do you follow someone who isn’t perfect? Why do you stand up for a criminal?

And please, if you think that $2.86 is no big deal, consider what year it was. 1826. I’m sure that was a lot more money back then.
It’s not that he may have committed a misdemeanor that is troubling. What is troubling is that he is convicted for using the same technique to find non-existent buried treasure that he later used to translate the Book of Mormon. He used the same method to defraud people as a money digger that he used to defraud people regarding the Book of Mormon. You have to have drunk the Kool-aid to not see the problem this creates. My understanding is that he even used the same stone as a money digger that he used to “translate” the Book of Mormon.
 
YOU believe that, . . .
No, that is the truth. 🙂
. . . but it was founded on misconceptions of the Catholic church . . .
It had nothing to do with the Catholic Church.
. . . and on DECEIT. You have been fooled.
I don’t think so! 😃
We have shown you time and again on this thread and in others. You refuse to see.
LOL! 😃
Really, why bother to be here?
Too bad you don’t like it! 😃
Go off and be happy with your delusion.
I am not going anywhere. You can go if you want! 😃
LOL. So that’s how you view things coming to these forums? Wanting to defeat others to your religion?
This is debate. In debate you have winners and losers! 🙂
I think this is more of an indicator of how you view things. 😃
No, you are just a bad loser! 🙂
 
Zerinus,

Even having been presented with more evidence that Joseph Smith is a fraud, a liar, and a cheat, you still believe him to have spoken “truth.” Truly, it proves that there are those who are so gullible.

It is unfortunate that you have resorted to childish behaviour. But then I gather that not much can be expected from someone who follows someone who has shown to be a fraud and a liar. It must be really tough for you. I feel so sorry for you.

Consider following only Jesus Christ who is perfect and sinless. A healer and the son of God the Father Almighty. He is all you need. There are no other prophets after Him. And it is through him that you get to the Father, not a fraudulant criminal.
 
Po18Guy,
Again, if you have thought I am using this as a “hunting ground” then you are totally mistaken. Christine from Washington is the only Catholic I have encountered in this forum who seemed to have any potential of actually thinking about the subject matter that is brought up, beyond a mere glance and dismissal. I have appreciated her sincerity and respect her firm beliefs. I respect all of the firm beliefs I see expressed here, but folks the LDS church is here to stay and will grow during your lifetime and understanding people is far better than belittling them with unfounded misconceptions. What baffles me is why that concept seems so hard for some people to grasp.
Thank you Parker! I have been staying away from CAF for awhile, because, frankly it was getting too nasty for me. But I began reading this thread today, and as usual, you and Finrock are remaining courteous and lucid in the face of some really mean jabs.

The Book of Revelation analogy is great. Jesus is not about all peace and harmony. He dealt very severely with the moneylenders in the Temple. He will be our final Judge.

“Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.” {Rev 1:7 RSV} :

Yes Jesus died for all mankind, but we all have the free will to accept or reject Him. Jesus demands this of us as Christians:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ “The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (NAS, Mark 12:28-31

Some Catholics on this thread need to think about this.
 
It’s not that he may have committed a misdemeanor that is troubling. What is troubling is that he is convicted for using the same technique to find non-existent buried treasure that he later used to translate the Book of Mormon. He used the same method to defraud people as a money digger that he used to defraud people regarding the Book of Mormon. You have to have drunk the Kool-aid to not see the problem this creates. My understanding is that he even used the same stone as a money digger that he used to “translate” the Book of Mormon.
Agreed! That is quite troubling.

What I noticed, however, was the Mormon mindset that ParkerD (and even Zerinus and Finrock) dispalyed. It doesn’t matter to them that they are willing to follow and believe the stories of a liar and a cheat. I think that’s quite telling. Even if it is justified that Smith is simply a sinner like them, or whatever. ParkerD has even admitted that he’s ok with the fact that Smith is not perfect in a previous post.

To me, what’s far more troubling is the mindset that it is ok to follow a criminal who has cheated and frauded others. May as well be one of the Manson followers, IMO. Especially in light of the fact that we already have a perfect, sinless, leader, Jesus Christ.
 
swplan,
Thanks for your thoughts in your recent post. I think it made a lot of sense except for the idea that there is not the possibility of what one could call a “true church.” It would have to be a “heart-based” (not “mind-based or wisdom-of-man based”) religion and would have to have the kind of power Isaiah talked about, which I think is the kind of power that Moses had–revelatory power and priesthood power to exercise authority in God’s name.

I think CS Lewis had a lot of inspiration behind his writings. Thanks for the discussion.
I do believe in a true church, but I think God is the only one who knows who is sincere, so God is the only one who knows who is in and who is out. I don’t believe in a building, or organized congregation that has Him entirely figured out.

I’ve met all kinds of Christians, who are led by the Holy Spirit, who are walking with God. Its interesting… I took a train a while ago and sat down across from an older couple. It didn’t take long, for us to start talking about God and before long it was clear to all of us that we were “walking with God.” They were Catholic and I am more of the Protestant persuasion. We were able to talk about things using our intellect and we were able to connect on a heart/spiritual level. I got off the train before them with an open invitation to come and visit them and stay with them any time I found myself in Montreal. I’ve met many people from various denominations that have the anointing of God on them in that way.

Blessings,
SW
 
Isaiah 29:13
The Lord says:
"These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men.

2Tim. 3:1-5
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— **5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. **

Its interesting how scripture resurfaces in the BOM.

Those two verses have been on my mind for a long time. I didn’t know that they were also present in the BOM. I grew up in a denomination that believes God is waiting for the right time and then He will strike, when we least expect it (but they don’t think much about it). They believe they have found the right denomination and as a result, they are safely among those who will go to heaven. For them that’s all that matters - they follow the rules and put their time in and its ‘all good’… They “have a form of godliness, but deny its power.”

It seems that there are verses that stand out to people as they read scripture. There would be varying explanations as to why these verses are present in the BOM.

A LDS might say that it is because God knows which verses we will remember most and wants us to see His presence in both texts.

A while ago, on the topic of various world religions, I heard someone say, "No one will believe a pure lie. They will see it for what it is. A believable lie is one that starts with some truth. The hearer accepts the truth that is offered first and accepts the information (which is false) that the speaker associates with it. Each world religion is not all bad, otherwise people would see through them. On top of the lie rests some goodness, some truth - that’s why people believe in lies.

This makes me think of that CS Lewis quote we’ve been shooting back and forth about how Satan mostly wants to fatten us up so he can devour us in Hell. Satan just wants to keep us out of God’s hands, so he can have us for eternity.

I’m not saying that I know how God will respond to people who believe the things taught by Joseph Smith. God is just and merciful in a way that none of us can fully comprehend. In Lewis’ last portion of the Narnia Chronicles the story comes to a close as Narnians enter into Heaven. There is a man who was not a believer in Aslan through the course of his life, but worshipped another god. Aslan talks with the man and makes it plain to him. Aslan says that this man was sincere in his devotion and was not polluted by the religion he was raised in and so the whole time, the man was actually worshipping the one true God, even though he had no way of knowing Him. He may have been the one exception. Similarly, in ‘The Great Divorce,’ the narrator only witnesses one person make the decision to leave damnation behind - everyone else, when faced with the reality of Heaven, refuses it. Lewis is careful that we don’t begin to imagine that his ideas are fact - He presents them as maybes. He clearly believes that God is merciful, but doesn’t offer us any definite statements on how far that mercy will extend beyond the invitation of Christ, or if it will at all. In both of Lewis’ texts I’ve listed here, he makes a clear point that God won’t force us to see things as they really are.

The primary disconnect from the Way of Christ for me when looking at LDS theology is in the answer Joseph gets from his prayer. He hears from God that all churches are an abomination to Him and that Joseph should not join any.

One thing that is crystal clear to me is that no one denomination is the right one. I believe that true believers/followers are present in all denominations. I believe that the true church is not defined by the sign on the lawn of the church people attend, but by the way individuals live out the calling they receive. I believe that we should not be seeking the perfect church, but the one and only perfect and holy God. I believe we will always be disappointed if we seek pure divinity among people, but never with God.

Lets imagine that the Lutheran church is the one true church and instead of following the teachings of that denomination, I tell everyone that I am, but my lifestyle is not reflective of the teachings of the church - am I really a follower of that denomination? There will be some sincere followers and some who are insincere.

“They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”
“They have a form of godliness, but deny its power.”

Its likely that there are people among the denomination that I grew up in who are sincere, I just don’t know of any - I suppose its not my job to judge that. The verses above are probably there mostly to remind us not to be those kind of people, to examine ourselves.

(I’m sick and I imagine I have ranted quite a bit - thanks for your patience 😊 😉 )

Peace,
SW
I agree with you. We shouldn’t quibble about the rules and regulations, the structure and ceremonies within each Christian church. We should find our commonality through our love of God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ asks us to love our neighbors as ourselves. Not just people of our denomination.
 
I agree with you. We shouldn’t quibble about the rules and regulations, the structure and ceremonies within each Christian church. We should find our commonality through our love of God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ asks us to love our neighbors as ourselves. Not just people of our denomination.
So you accept the Mormon falsehood as a valid way to worship Jesus?
 
Zerinus,

Even having been presented with more evidence that Joseph Smith is a fraud, a liar, and a cheat, you still believe him to have spoken “truth.” Truly, it proves that there are those who are so gullible.

It is unfortunate that you have resorted to childish behaviour. But then I gather that not much can be expected from someone who follows someone who has shown to be a fraud and a liar. It must be really tough for you. I feel so sorry for you.

Consider following only Jesus Christ who is perfect and sinless. A healer and the son of God the Father Almighty. He is all you need. There are no other prophets after Him. And it is through him that you get to the Father, not a fraudulant criminal.
I’ve spent a fair bit of time examining the LDS church. One thing that strikes me about it is that it has an interesting story. Not so much the BOM itself, but the LDS. The young Joseph praying and seeing God and Jesus, telling people, being persecuted, starting translating the book, sharing it, persecution, building a congregation, traveling, The garden of Eden in Missouri, persecution, travel, new revelations, polygamy, rise and fall and rise again of the movement, Joseph is murdered, Brigham Young carries a large number of the LDS to Utah which was part of Mexico then and starts a new community, which thrives, missionaries calling all converts to make a pilgrimage to Utah, enmity between the LDS and America before America took over the territory, official end polygamy, (huge gap), the movement dies down in the 50s (?), president of the church changes missionary tactics saying that revelation has directed him to set up temples all over the world, movement picks up again,…

Its kind of like Abraham setting off in search of a new life. Through out the Bible there are people who set off, trusting God, doing things that people don’t think makes sense. Jesus was one of those people - he had a lot of critics and He led people into new life.

I can see how people might be drawn to that community.

How people are drawn to the BOM is still a mystery to me - feel free to elaborate on that, either in private message or here - I don’t get it and no LDS has ever been able to explain what draws them to the BOM using the BOM. I’ve heard the 2nd nail in the board speech, so please don’t bring that one out again.

There are a lot of disconnects for me that don’t make sense in LDS theology, but legal documents about JS from a society that thought he was a loser and wanted to see him fail, that doesn’t mean a lot to me. I do think its a bit fishy if JS was indeed a treasure hunter and he used the same stone in treasure hunting, using psychic abilities and then did the same thing in ‘translating’ the BOM. It may be that the document is authentic and that the people who wrote it and tried JS were sincere and unbiased, but we have no way to know that.
 
I’ve spent a fair bit of time examining the LDS church. One thing that strikes me about it is that it has an interesting story. Not so much the BOM itself, but the LDS. The young Joseph praying and seeing God and Jesus, telling people, being persecuted, starting translating the book, sharing it, persecution, building a congregation, traveling, The garden of Eden in Missouri, persecution, travel, new revelations, polygamy, rise and fall and rise again of the movement, Joseph is murdered, Brigham Young carries a large number of the LDS to Utah which was part of Mexico then and starts a new community, which thrives, missionaries calling all converts to make a pilgrimage to Utah, enmity between the LDS and America before America took over the territory, official end polygamy, (huge gap), the movement dies down in the 50s (?), president of the church changes missionary tactics saying that revelation has directed him to set up temples all over the world, movement picks up again,…

Its kind of like Abraham setting off in search of a new life. Through out the Bible there are people who set off, trusting God, doing things that people don’t think makes sense. Jesus was one of those people - he had a lot of critics and He led people into new life.

I can see how people might be drawn to that community.

How people are drawn to the BOM is still a mystery to me - feel free to elaborate on that, either in private message or here - I don’t get it and no LDS has ever been able to explain what draws them to the BOM using the BOM. I’ve heard the 2nd nail in the board speech, so please don’t bring that one out again.

There are a lot of disconnects for me that don’t make sense in LDS theology, but legal documents about JS from a society that thought he was a loser and wanted to see him fail, that doesn’t mean a lot to me. I do think its a bit fishy if JS was indeed a treasure hunter and he used the same stone in treasure hunting, using psychic abilities and then did the same thing in ‘translating’ the BOM. It may be that the document is authentic and that the people who wrote it and tried JS were sincere and unbiased, but we have no way to know that.
Joseph Smith’s conviction for money digging occurred before there was any real knowledge of the Book of Mormon and his religious convictions. There is simply no contemporary evidence outside of Joseph Smith’s immediate family that he had any religious experiences prior to getting up the Book of Mormon in 1827-1829. So the conviction for money-digging had nothing to do with Joseph Smith being considered a “loser” by society. It just shows he was already participating in deceptive practices before the Book of Mormon deception was concocted. It’s evidence of his general dishonesty. I cannot see how anybody can entrust their eternal salvation to Joseph Smith considering his lack of character before and after the Book of Mormon was created. Later on his lack of character is evident in his adultery with Fanny Alger and his dishonesty regarding plural marriage. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
 
So why do you follow someone who isn’t perfect? Why do you stand up for a criminal?

And please, if you think that $2.86 is no big deal, consider what year it was. 1826. I’m sure that was a lot more money back then.
Gracious,
Moses wasn’t perfect. Remember that he didn’t get to go across the Jordan River into the “promised land” because he had spoken in a way that didn’t show where his authority was coming from? The water came from the rock, but he was chastized. But it all worked out. Joshua became Israel’s prophet when the time came for the crossing of the Jordan River.

Do you really call anyone who has had a misdemeanor a “criminal”? I don’t.

What–$50 maybe? I think the judge just wanted to get rid of the case, and had gotten testifiers who said enough to match the law of the place against Joseph Smith. It was a tempest in a teapot, as far as I’m concerned. What’s funny to me is so many people believed Joseph had those abilities and said as much in court. Why would they do that if they were being “duped” by him? They did that because they had experiences that gave credence to their beliefs about Joseph Smith being able to find hidden things of value. It corroborates the account he gave of his life.
 
Thank you Parker! I have been staying away from CAF for awhile, because, frankly it was getting too nasty for me. But I began reading this thread today, and as usual, you and Finrock are remaining courteous and lucid in the face of some really mean jabs.

The Book of Revelation analogy is great. Jesus is not about all peace and harmony. He dealt very severely with the moneylenders in the Temple. He will be our final Judge.

“Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.” {Rev 1:7 RSV} :

Yes Jesus died for all mankind, but we all have the free will to accept or reject Him. Jesus demands this of us as Christians:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ “The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (NAS, Mark 12:28-31

Some Catholics on this thread need to think about this.
Christine,
Thanks once again for your fairness and how you show a knowledge of what true Christianity means. I appreciate that very much. You amaze me with your bravery here.
 
Gracious,
Moses wasn’t perfect. Remember that he didn’t get to go across the Jordan River into the “promised land” because he had spoken in a way that didn’t show where his authority was coming from? The water came from the rock, but he was chastized. But it all worked out. Joshua became Israel’s prophet when the time came for the crossing of the Jordan River.

Do you really call anyone who has had a misdemeanor a “criminal”? I don’t.

What–$50 maybe? I think the judge just wanted to get rid of the case, and had gotten testifiers who said enough to match the law of the place against Joseph Smith. It was a tempest in a teapot, as far as I’m concerned. What’s funny to me is so many people believed Joseph had those abilities and said as much in court. Why would they do that if they were being “duped” by him? They did that because they had experiences that gave credence to their beliefs about Joseph Smith being able to find hidden things of value. It corroborates the account he gave of his life.
Rationalize all you want, ParkerD. While Moses may not have been perfect, the Messiah had not come yet. He has now, Jesus Christ. There IS NO NEED for any other. None. He IS God. Why you want to follow some mere (lieing, cheating, deceitful) mortal is beyond me.
 
Daer Parker,

Tell me where I have been mislead and what the truth is

May God guide us all.

jpaul1953
JPaul1953,
Thanks for the sincerity in your request here. I wanted to ackowledge that, then address the issues you stated in your earlier post.
 
Zaffiroborant,

This is a similar statement to Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: (Joseph Smith)

14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men (Mormon prophets)

shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Who is doing the teaching? “Professors” and those who teach using “the precept of men” as the basis of their teaching.
 
Rationalize all you want, ParkerD. While Moses may not have been perfect, the Messiah had not come yet. He has now, Jesus Christ. There IS NO NEED for any other. None. He IS God. Why you want to follow some mere mortal is beyond me.
Gracious,
I could turn the mirror around, but that has already been done so many times on these threads that it gets old and I really don’t want to go there. I consider Joseph Smith to have had tremendous integrity, also a larger capacity to believe in people and give them the benefit of the doubt than I find myself having. If any of his naysayers were to read D & C 121 with a sincere heart, they would find a treasure trove of truth regardless of their religious persuasion.
 
So you accept the Mormon falsehood as a valid way to worship Jesus?
I don’t think they are all that different in their beliefs, except for the Book of Mormon. Even the way they view God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is not all that different. I don’t think they are false, they seem very honest about their beliefs, and yes I do think they are Christians, probably better than most.
 
Gracious,
I could turn the mirror around, but that has already been done so many times on these threads that it gets old and I really don’t want to go there. I consider Joseph Smith to have had tremendous integrity, also a larger capacity to believe in people and give them the benefit of the doubt than I find myself having. If any of his naysayers were to read D & C 121 with a sincere heart, they would find a treasure trove of truth regardless of their religious persuasion.
You’re right, this DOES get old, with your constant pushing of Mormonism on these threads. YOU may have considered Joseph Smith to have tremendous integrity, but the fact of the matter is that he does not. I don’t need to read any made up doctrines as I already have the Bible and Jesus’ word in it with the New Testament.

And if you want to turn the mirror around, fine, go ahead. If you face it towards the Catholic church, you will find Jesus Christ as the head of The Catholic Church. HIS Church, which HE founded. Pit HIM, a perfect sinless man against your fraud of Joseph Smith.

Good day. Don’t you have 6 kids to tend to?
 
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