What is the book of Mormon all about

[Catholic20064]

I don’t think they are all that different in their beliefs, except for the Book of Mormon. Even the way they view God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is not all that different. I don’t think they are false, they seem very honest about their beliefs, and yes I do think they are Christians, probably better than most.

I agree with you to some extent. I do think they are sincere, but they are sincerely duped. I wish many Catholics had the same moral lives that many active Mormons have. I do think their belief in the Book of Mormon in the end will be their undoing because it is so obviously false.

 

[GodIsGracious]

I don’t think they are all that different in their beliefs, except for the Book of Mormon. Even the way they view God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is not all that different. I don’t think they are false, they seem very honest about their beliefs, and yes I do think they are Christians, probably better than most.

I don’t have time right now, I have a meeting in 5. But you really need to learn what a Christian is and what the Catholic church (seeing as how you’re Catholic) defines a Christian. There may be some good people who are Mormons, but they are NOT Christian.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So why do you follow someone who isn’t perfect? Why do you stand up for a criminal?

And please, if you think that $2.86 is no big deal, consider what year it was. 1826. I’m sure that was a lot more money back then.

It’s about $25 (comparing relative values to today).

 

[ricko]

I don’t think they are all that different in their beliefs, except for the Book of Mormon. Even the way they view God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is not all that different. I don’t think they are false, they seem very honest about their beliefs, and yes I do think they are Christians, probably better than most.

Christine, it doesn’t sound like you know much about the LDS.

They don’t believe in one God, they believe in multiple gods and that THEY may become a god themselves.

The BOM says that those who believe in and practice infant baptism will go to Hell.

Their teachers have condemned the Catholic Church as a false church led by Satan.

They don’t believe that Hell is eternal punishment and that most in Hell will be saved by the Mormon Church.

They do not worship Jesus

You still don’t think they are all that different? I would not say they are honest about their beliefs but sincere and very much misled. And no, and no again, they are NOT Christians. They preach a false gospel and may cause many souls to be lost.

 

[swplan76]

I agree with you. We shouldn’t quibble about the rules and regulations, the structure and ceremonies within each Christian church. We should find our commonality through our love of God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ asks us to love our neighbors as ourselves. Not just people of our denomination.

So you accept the Mormon falsehood as a valid way to worship Jesus?

Our Bible is an interesting book. James (along with other passages of scripture) tells us not to judge each other. It very clearly warns us about judging, tells that God is the only one capable of judging between us. It also tells us that he, “The Judge is at the door,” like He is watching, or He is very near. It like it is saying, don’t think about taking on God’s role - He is the judge. If we put ourselves in His shoes, we will have some questions to answer. I think it starts in Chapter 3 of James and provides some more in chapter 5. The point is this: If we are not called to be the judge, what are we called to be? We are called to be light and salt - to be a city on a hill. The goodness of God is meant to shine in you in such a way that people are drawn to it and are blessed by it. Some people have tried to use the bait and switch technique - shine the light so that when people come we can snag them with fine print, or hook them in some how. We have to make sure that we don’t jump into the role of being the convicter. The Holy Spirit does that - God is working in each of us in His own timing - that is up to Him.

I personally don’t agree with the BOM or the LDS in various ways, but I find that that is true for various denominations of Christianity - there are a lot of things that we can agree to disagree on… LDS is anchored in the idea that they are the only church that is not an abomination. That is the first word Joseph heard from ‘God.’ How can the LDS church accept other denominations as partners in God’s work if we are an abomination to Him.

One thing that does give me pause is the origins… Joseph went to pray and saw 2 “personages of light” one said he was God and the other, Jesus. The Bible says that Moses saw God’s back and it turned his hair white. Nothing happened to JS upon seeing God. That’s a little strange, no? but that is just a footnote to the larger problem - “personages of light” - Islam started in a very similar way. Muhammad saw an angel that gave him the Qur’an chapter by chapter over the course of 12 years.

2 Cor. 11:14 warns us that Satan and his servants masquerade as angels of light.

What if Joseph and Muhammad encountered the same angel? What if the angel was Satan? That is a huge problem. Satan would very much like to distract us from who God really is - what if the BOM and the D&C revelations are enough to draw people away from seeking God, or ***what if they are distracting enough for non-believers that they just throw out all of Christianity because they have encountered the BOM and the LDS *** because they think it complicates things and is ridiculous.

I don’t feel the need to judge others, but the **possibility **of the BOM and the ‘revelations’ of JS and other church founders being given to them by Satan is difficult to know how to respond to for me.

One of the last times I sat down with some LDS missionaries, I asked, why do I need the BOM? They said it was another revelation from God about Jesus. I asked, why do I need it? The Bible is good and it served the church well before JS came along right? They said that I was right, so I told them that I would just stick to the Bible as I found it was serving me very well and I did not feel that God was leading me to another book and that the BOM was not speaking to me in the way God was using the Bible in my life.

I encouraged the missionaries to continue to seek God and I would continue to seek God as I had been… one of them was not happy with me, angry in fact. I didn’t see them again.

What I’ve realized is that the problem is that the LDS believe that we all need the LDS church in order to be saved (right?). It seems to me that the only way into heaven is through the LDS (according to the LDS). Joseph was told that the rest of us are an abomination - how else can that be seen?

 

[Catholic20064]

Christine, it doesn’t sound like you know much about the LDS.

They don’t believe in one God, they believe in multiple gods and that THEY may become a god themselves.

The BOM says that those who believe in and practice infant baptism will go to Hell.

Their teachers have condemned the Catholic Church as a false church led by Satan.

They don’t believe that Hell is eternal punishment and that most in Hell will be saved by the Mormon Church.

They do not worship Jesus

You still don’t think they are all that different? I would not say they are honest about their beliefs but sincere and very much misled. And no, and no again, they are NOT Christians. They preach a false gospel and may cause many souls to be lost.

Actually, Mormons do have a belief in Hell which they call “Outer Darkness” for those who have completely rejected God. There are various feelings among Mormons about how many people will be there. I think they probably believe those who are seeking God will be saved in some way – I tend to agree even if the road goes through purgatory. In reality Mormons have a concept that is not that different than purgatory although they believe people received different rewards based on their obedience. The Mormon view of salvation is not that far off from what Catholics believe in my opinion. I pray everyday at mass that everyone will be brought into God’s presence, and that’s the hope I’m asked to have. If I’m allowed to hope it, maybe it will actually happen.

 

[RebeccaJ]

If you thought I thought Joseph Smith was perfect, then you were wrong.

I did not say this is what I thought. I gave a response to your idea that JS was “thinking outside the box”, which, you see as a good thing that enable him to start your religion. I said it was a criminal way of thinking and behaving. You also claimed that his day in court was an accusation and a threat. Which clearly you can see it was a legitimate legal proceeding, where he was found guilty.

So, from this what I do think, is that you know he committed a criminal act, and you find him to be admirable, ie, “thinking outside the box”.

 

[swplan76]

Joseph Smith’s conviction for money digging occurred before there was any real knowledge of the Book of Mormon and his religious convictions. There is simply no contemporary evidence outside of Joseph Smith’s immediate family that he had any religious experiences prior to getting up the Book of Mormon in 1827-1829. So the conviction for money-digging had nothing to do with Joseph Smith being considered a “loser” by society. It just shows he was already participating in deceptive practices before the Book of Mormon deception was concocted. It’s evidence of his general dishonesty. I cannot see how anybody can entrust their eternal salvation to Joseph Smith considering his lack of character before and after the Book of Mormon was created. Later on his lack of character is evident in his adultery with Fanny Alger and his dishonesty regarding plural marriage. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

When Joseph was 14 he claimed that he went into a grove of trees and prayed and saw God and Jesus. He told a lot of people and word spread - Joseph and his whole family were looked down upon by many people because of that. I don’t know how widespread the ridicule went - probably impossible to know at this point. I’ve heard that it was fairly wide spread, though, who really knows at this point?

David was “a man after God’s own heart” and he committed adultery and murder… what do we do with that?

I agree, JS’s rise to power in Nauvoo and the polygamy seems corrupt to me. An LDS member told me that JS was called to start polygamy because there was as shortage of men and that there were a lot of women who needed protection. Why did they need marriage in order for them to be protected by other families? The NT church went through persecution, but they didn’t require polygamy. If God could speak to JS to start polygamy, why couldn’t he have led JS to a place where there were men in need of wives and put in on the hearts of those men to convert? I think polygamy was something that was a requirement if a person was able. Brigham Young claimed that he didn’t want to be a polygamist, but that it was the call of God through Joseph, so Brigham complied.

It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

 

[ParkerD]

JPaul,
Here are responses:

Apostasy sort of means took a major wrong turn.

It needn’t mean a “major wrong turn.” That’s not how Paul wrote about the people having struggles keeping the doctrine correct in his day.

Keep in mind that in order that any faith organization gain validity the faith needs to knock the King off the top of the hill.

No–Christ is of course the King, the chief corner stone, the rock of offense to those who happen to be offended. No need to single out any church or organization. The need is to follow Christ and His gospel including revelation and priesthood authority as He and the apostles taught so clearly.

So be the reason for these faiths saying we apostosized and the protestants saying we are not the one true Church of Christ even though all Christian faiths accept the Bible as the Church put the new testament canon together along with the old testament. This bible is called the Vulgate, the very first complete Bible-the yr was around 398 AD, the composer was St Jerome, a Catholic monk.

All faiths have good people and dedicated followers even if they are off-base. There are many good Mormons, but their beliefs are way different than how the Church teaches.

OK. I do like the King James Translation better, but I’m grateful for the steps it took to get the Bible to us in English.

1. Jesus Christ is a Son of God, not the Son of God. But they do say He is the greatest Son of God.

We all have a “Father of our spirits” according to the apostle Paul. (That means God the Father is the father of our spirits.) There are many Biblical references to sons of god. But there is only One Son of God in the sense of being the literal Son of God born to a mortal mother, she having conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost.

1. They teach that originally God came from man, not man from God.

That is simply untrue, and I don’t know how to restate because it is so unintelligible as to what you meant.

1. They say that the original inhabitants of North America were Jewish people that crossed over from Russia when it was attached to Alaska ( they lay low about this point now).

There is a small group who would now have descendants in the Americas, who were partly from the tribe of Manasseh. They came by boat through divine guidance. Others have also lived in the Americas and would be a “scourge” to the descendants of that small group because of their having not kept the commandments of God.

1. They believe in strict adherence to their beliefs, as do we.

Yes, indeed, and believe in ongoing repentance and change and the sanctification process by the influence of the Holy Spirit.

More later…

May God guide us all

Yes!

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus,

Even having been presented with more evidence that Joseph Smith is a fraud, a liar, and a cheat, you still believe him to have spoken “truth.”. . .

All the prophets of God in their time have been subjected to persecution and terms of abuse by unbelievers. There is nothing unusual about that. Even Jesus was called “Beelzebub, the prince of devils” (Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:22). To His disciples Jesus said: “The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. . . . If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?” (Matthew 10:24–25.) He also said, “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” (Matthew 5:12.) He also had this to say to those who called him Beelzebub and a devil:

Matthew 12:

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Joseph Smith is no different from the other prophets that have ever lived. You are acting true to your character in abusing him, and he is acting true to his character in receiving such abuse. I am also reminded of the following quote from one of his successors in the Presicency of the Church, Harold B. Lee:

A few years ago, we had a woman who had written some scurrilous things about the Prophet Joseph Smith. (Mention was made of it here in the conference at that time.) Shortly thereafter, I met someone on the street and they asked me if there had been a revelation or an utterance at the recently concluded general conference that might be considered as a prophecy. And I said, “Did you hear the closing remarks of President George Albert Smith as he closed the conference? If you did, you heard a prophet speaking, and let me tell you what he said.” I happened to have a clipping in my wallet. This is what President George Albert Smith said:

“Many have belittled Joseph Smith, but those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of their infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by Joseph Smith and attached to his name, will never die.”

No truer words were ever spoken, and that person fell just as all others will fall who try to tear down the work of the Lord.

We have had some who, writing in the public press occasionally, are among those who have fallen by the wayside. They befoul the honored family names that they have. They have disgraced the honors that we had given to them in times past. They are trying to join the forces of the enemy against the work of the Lord. And we can say to them, as President George Albert Smith said then, “Those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of the infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by the leaders of this church and attached to their names, will never die.”​

That is a true prophecy; and it applies to all the detractors of Joseph Smith, then and now, and for all time.

 

[zerinus]

Some Catholics on this thread need to think about this.

They are not genuine Catholics, and do not represent them. All genuine Catholics I have met have been dignified and noble spirited individuals.

 

[ParkerD]

I did not say this is what I thought. I gave a response to your idea that JS was “thinking outside the box”, which, you see as a good thing that enable him to start your religion. I said it was a criminal way of thinking and behaving. You also claimed that his day in court was an accusation and a threat. Which clearly you can see it was a legitimate legal proceeding, where he was found guilty.

So, from this what I do think, is that you know he committed a criminal act, and you find him to be admirable, ie, “thinking outside the box”.

Rebecca,
He had disobeyed a statute of the area. I have no idea whether he knew the statute existed. If he did, then I guess the exigencies of his family’s needful situation led him in a direction that broke the statute. I have paid a couple of traffic fines in my lifetime. Fines are part of our society. Fines do not a criminal make.

As far as the kind of faith Joseph Smith needed to believe he could translate using divine sources of help, then I think such faith would be singularly remarkable and would not be available to just any sincere person who happened to ask God for an answer. I think Joseph Smith had a singular faith and an intensity of belief in divine assistance that was all-important in his being able to do what he did. The faith is the issue, not the method, as far as I’m concerned.

 

[zerinus]

How people are drawn to the BOM is still a mystery to me - feel free to elaborate on that, either in private message or here - I don’t get it and no LDS has ever been able to explain what draws them to the BOM using the BOM. I’ve heard the 2nd nail in the board speech, so please don’t bring that one out again.

Thank you for your interesting comments. Not sure what it is that you are looking for here though. I am drawn to the Book of Mormon for the same reasons that I am drawn to the Bible: the Spirit of the Lord witnesses to me that they are true. It is tha simple.

 

[swplan76]

You’re right, this DOES get old, with your constant pushing of Mormonism on these threads. YOU may have considered Joseph Smith to have tremendous integrity, but the fact of the matter is that he does not. I don’t need to read any made up doctrines as I already have the Bible and Jesus’ word in it with the New Testament.

And if you want to turn the mirror around, fine, go ahead. If you face it towards the Catholic church, you will find Jesus Christ as the head of The Catholic Church. HIS Church, which HE founded. Pit HIM, a perfect sinless man against your fraud of Joseph Smith.

Good day. Don’t you have 6 kids to tend to?

This is a thread on Mormonism!!

If LDS people were not here, then it would be just a bunch of non-mormons talking about them. People have questions, who better to ask. Of course LDS people will answer from the perspective that is pro-LDS - what else can be expected?

The comment about the 6 kids has also been made about Catholics as a criticism. You may have become just like the people who have made fun of Catholics for years.

I think we have to hold “the mirror” up to Jesus.
Who is acting less like Jesus, you or ParkerD? If this was a WWJD contest, so far, as far as behavior goes, ParkerD is beating you.

Eph. 4:30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon GodIsGracious! I hope that you are well today.

You’re right, this DOES get old, with your constant pushing of Mormonism on these threads. YOU may have considered Joseph Smith to have tremendous integrity, but the fact of the matter is that he does not. I don’t need to read any made up doctrines as I already have the Bible and Jesus’ word in it with the New Testament.

And if you want to turn the mirror around, fine, go ahead. If you face it towards the Catholic church, you will find Jesus Christ as the head of The Catholic Church. HIS Church, which HE founded. Pit HIM, a perfect sinless man against your fraud of Joseph Smith.

This post that I’m quoting of yours is representative of a few posts that you have made where you are implying that the Mormons follow Joseph Smith in the same sense as one would follow God. This implication is a misrepresentation of the truth.

Joseph Smith, to Mormons, is a prophet, not God. We believe that Joseph Smith is the first prophet and President of the Church of Jesus Christ in this last gospel dispensation. Mormons believe that God used Joseph Smith to restore His gospel. Nonetheless, Mormons believe that “Jesus was the head of His Church when He was living on earth [and] He is the head of His Church now” (Gospel Fundamentals) which church LDS people believe to be the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormons believe that the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God’s representative on earth. This concept should be easily understood by Catholics because in a similar way, the Catholic church believes that Jesus Christ is the head of the Catholic church and the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth. To the extent that Catholics believe the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, Catholics follow the Pope. To the extent that Mormons believe the President of the Church is God’s representative on earth, we follow the President of the Church.

None of this means that we follow Joseph Smith (or any mortal) in the same sense as we follow Jesus Christ. We follow Joseph Smith (and current prophets) precisely because we believe he was a true prophet of Jesus Christ and we believe that the LDS church today continues to be guided by a true representative of Jesus Christ here on earth. But, we believe that Jesus is at the helm. We believe He is guiding this church. We know that Joseph Smith was imperfect. We know our current leaders are imperfect. But our hope of salvation doesn’t stem from our hope in our mortal leaders, but rather it stems from who we believe is our Savior and Redeemer, even Jesus Christ.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that Jesus Christ is our cornerstone. He is our Head. He is our God. We follow Him and those He has chosen as His representatives on earth. Our hope of salvation is in Jesus Christ. To state that we follow Joseph Smith with the implication that we are doing so at the exclusion of Jesus Christ, is misrepresentative of the truth.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[ricko]

This is a thread on Mormonism!!

If LDS people were not here, then it would be just a bunch of non-mormons talking about them. People have questions, who better to ask. Of course LDS people will answer from the perspective that is pro-LDS - what else can be expected?

They are welcome to stay and she doesn’t really mean for them to go. After conversing with a Mormon for any length of time you can become pretty frustrated as they do not respond to intelligent reasoning. It’s like talking to the proverbial brick wall.
The comment about the 6 kids has also been made about Catholics as a criticism. You may have become just like the people who have made fun of Catholics for years.

He really does have 6 kids I believe.

I think we have to hold “the mirror” up to Jesus.
Who is acting less like Jesus, you or ParkerD? If this was a WWJD contest, so far, as far as behavior goes, ParkerD is beating you.

Parker comes on as a “goody two shoes” acting the part but at the same time spreading the error of his church misleading many.

Eph. 4:30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

The above quote is well known and believed by all Catholics and other Christians. However, it is not an excuse for allowing heresy.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

This is a thread on Mormonism!!

If LDS people were not here, then it would be just a bunch of non-mormons talking about them. People have questions, who better to ask. Of course LDS people will answer from the perspective that is pro-LDS - what else can be expected?

The comment about the 6 kids has also been made about Catholics as a criticism. You may have become just like the people who have made fun of Catholics for years.

I think we have to hold “the mirror” up to Jesus.
Who is acting less like Jesus, you or ParkerD? If this was a WWJD contest, so far, as far as behavior goes, ParkerD is beating you.

Eph. 4:30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Amen!

 

[swplan76]

The above quote is well known and believed by all Catholics and other Christians. However, it is not an excuse for allowing heresy.

Allowing…
Is it my job to allow or forbid? The Catholic Church did this thing a few years ago called the Spanish Inquisition - I don’ t think we want to return to those days. We are having a conversation. If some people aren’t up for it, they shouldn’t join in.

God isn’t absent. He is the judge. He is at work within all of us.

I think its important that we read scripture and apply it… what does it say? We should read it and do it.

Eph. 4:30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

 

[swplan76]

Let me just emphasize these lines so there is no confusion:

Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another,…

 

[ricko]

Allowing…
Is it my job to allow or forbid? The Catholic Church did this thing a few years ago called the Spanish Inquisition - I don’ t think we want to return to those days. We are having a conversation. If some people aren’t up for it, they shouldn’t join in.

Sorry I took so long to reply, I was busy pulling out the old rack and dusting it off.