No, that is still taught. The teaching is that those who know the CC and deliberately fall away are not on the ark when the flood comes.Hi guanophore,
Didn’t the CC also once say that there is no salvation outside of the CC? I know that the CC has changed its position on this issue post V2, but that was what it once taught! Amazing!
There is an uneducated understanding of this, and you’ve latched onto it. Therefore, you have no idea what the Church has taught.Hi guanophore,
Didn’t the CC also once say that there is no salvation outside of the CC? I know that the CC has changed its position on this issue post V2, but that was what it once taught! Amazing!
How is “invincible ignorance” defined in the bible? And where in Scripture do we find that the CC is required for salvation?There is an uneducated understanding of this, and you’ve latched onto it. Therefore, you have no idea what the Church has taught.
There is indeed no salvation outside the Church. For anyone who knows the Church is required for Salvation, and either refuses to join, or leaves, they fall into this category.
For those who by invincible ignorance and no fault of their own are not taught the Gospel and do not know the Church is required, then God may save them by what is in their hearts. Obviously, God is not in any way unjust.
You may just fall into the invincible ignorance category.
Hi Br. Rich,Christ Crucified.
Why do you think we call it “Good Friday”?
Christ has died. Christ is risen, Christ will come again.The word “gospel” means “good news”. What is the Catholic gospel in your opinion?
Both questions inappropriate and based on ignorance of history and of what God has done.How is “invincible ignorance” defined in the bible? And where in Scripture do we find that the CC is required for salvation?
Hi MDK,Both questions inappropriate and based on ignorance of history and of what God has done.
Who authored the NT? - Catholic men inspired by the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
Was everything Christ did or said put into Scriptures? - No, it was not.
Did God create a Church or hand people a Bible? - He built one Church, with Peter as head.
What is the pillar and foundation of the truth, God’s one Church or the Scriptures? - God’s one Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. This is how we know what the Scriptures teach. The Scriptures don’t teach their own truths.
Why would anyone require that every truth be in the Scriptures? - ignorance
One has to overcome the ignorance of history and of God’s revealed truths to understand why God made the Catholic Church required for Salvation. Throwing it before someone who is not prepared and who is hostile to God’s word is ill advised… there’s a Biblical term for it you may be familiar with as that is not something hard to understand.
Once again, you quote the Bible to try to support your own position and then call it “what God has to say about it”.Hi MDK,
In that case your “gospel” is certainly not good news. If we can’t know the true church without a thorough understanding of history AND we are not really capable of correctly interpreting the bible when we study it, then your “gospel” is, in reality, rather poorly named, for it is horrible news.
Let’s see what God has to say about this!
Galations 1:6-17 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
Hi Della,Once again, you quote the Bible to try to support your own position and then call it “what God has to say about it”.
How many times do we have to tell you that the Gospel is the message which the Church Christ founded, the Catholic Church, has been preaching since 33 AD. We have the true Gospel Paul is talking about that Protestants of your stripe have watered down to a sound bite of theology.
Catholics teach and hold that Christ died for sinners–that he rose from the dead–that he is our only means of salvation–that he is coming again. What other gospel do you think we hold to?
Perhaps you will tell me how you came to know that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ. Are you a history professor? A historian? I’m just curious how you managed to know what lots of people (like me) don’t know. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just asking how you are able to know this.How many times do we have to tell you that the Gospel is the message which the Church Christ founded, the Catholic Church, has been preaching since 33 AD. We have the true Gospel Paul is talking about that Protestants of your stripe have watered down to a sound bite of theology.
God’s Gospel is not good news for you, but it is for me. It’s funny that you call God’s authentic message “horrible”. What does that say about you? God’s message would be good news for you if you didn’t prefer your own message over God’s.Hi MDK,
In that case your “gospel” is certainly not good news. If we can’t know the true church without a thorough understanding of history AND we are not really capable of correctly interpreting the bible when we study it, then your “gospel” is, in reality, rather poorly named, for it is horrible news.
… as if you had even a remote idea.Let’s see what God has to say about this!
You are not serving Christ, because you tell falsehoods about Him and what He teaches. I don’t know who you serve, but it is clearly not Christ.Galations 1:6-17 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
I’m confused. In one paragraph you say there is no salvation outside the Church, then in the next paragraph you say God can save those outside the Church.T
There is indeed no salvation outside the Church. For anyone who knows the Church is required for Salvation, and either refuses to join, or leaves, they fall into this category.
For those who by invincible ignorance and no fault of their own are not taught the Gospel and do not know the Church is required, then God may save them by what is in their hearts. Obviously, God is not in any way unjust.
What Church was hard to find for 1500 years and what bible do you think the mostly illiterate gentry would’ve studied?Hi MDK,
In that case your “gospel” is certainly not good news. If we can’t know the true church without a thorough understanding of history AND we are not really capable of correctly interpreting the bible when we study it, then your “gospel” is, in reality, rather poorly named, for it is horrible news.
Yes, gladly for those who ask from a sincere desire to know more about God and His Church. Obviously there is more depth to understand than the simple essential statements that I had given. When we say no salvation outside the Church, it means that all salvation is through Christ who is Head of His one true Church where the truth is taught and His Sacraments are ministered. All salvation is related to His Sacraments of Baptism and the Eucharist (like all of God’s revealed truth, this certainly deserves more depth of discussion). God made His Church for all His New Covenant family. Yet, the more that you have been given, the more is required of you. If you know the Church was built by Christ for His New Covenant family where we have the truth of Him and His valid and licit Sacraments, but fail to join, or leave it, then we’re in grave jeapordy and cannot be saved… Obviously, it does not mean no salvation outside of the the physical walls of the Church, or that if you’re simply an official member of this Church then you are automatically saved. Sadly, some inside do not believe and obey, and thankfully some officially outside the Church do believe, love God, and obey to the best of their ability given what they know and are able to do. These who love God and seek Him, should come into His Church where the fullness of revealed truth is taught, and we can be united to Him in the incomparable Eucharist.I’m confused. In one paragraph you say there is no salvation outside the Church, then in the next paragraph you say God can save those outside the Church.
Help? Thanks.
The CC still says this. We believe that Jesus only founded One Church, of which He is the Only Head. It is His Body, and all who are saved are members of it.Hi guanophore,
Didn’t the CC also once say that there is no salvation outside of the CC? I know that the CC has changed its position on this issue post V2, but that was what it once taught! Amazing!
You are laboring under a misunderstanding that everything is contained in Scripture. This is not the case. You can easily see that, because this principle itself is not found there.How is “invincible ignorance” defined in the bible? And where in Scripture do we find that the CC is required for salvation?
Hi fhansen,What Church was hard to find for 1500 years and what bible do you think the mostly illiterate gentry would’ve studied?
The point was that the identity of the Church was obvious without a thorough knowledge of history and that she correctly taught the faith which people couldn’t study on their own. That’s one reason why there’s no salvation without her-even with all the bible studies going on today Protestants have proven that reading the bible without the guidance of the CC guarantees no one of adequate, that is, salvific, understanding.Hi fhansen,
Excellent point! During most of church history there were very few churches, very few bibles available, and most people couldn’t read anyway. As if all of these things weren’t hardship enough, many of you will insist that God has added yet another combersome burden–“outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.”
If this is good news, I’d really like to know what is so good about it.
It is a good thing that this is not true. If it were, then Jesus and the Apostles would have been lying when they said they had good news. They proclaimed this before there was a Bible, and did not proclaim it until they did have a thorough understanding.In that case your “gospel” is certainly not good news. If we can’t know the true church without a thorough understanding of history AND we are not really capable of correctly interpreting the bible when we study it, then your “gospel” is, in reality, rather poorly named, for it is horrible news.
We certainly can see your perception of God’s Word. However, it was written by Catholics, for Catholics, and that is why it is best understood from the perspective it was written, which is the Catholic Church.Let’s see what God has to say about this!
Since you are unfamiliar with the gospel that was preached by the Apostles, it is understandible that you don’t realize that what you inherited from the Reformation 500 years ago IS the “different gospel”.As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
From the day that the gospel was committed to the Church by the Apostles this has been the case. It is strange that now, after so much “gospel” created by man, that now Catholics are accused of not receiving the revelation.I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
I can understand that. Actually, the good news is reflected in the NT. It is found in Christ. Christ committed it to the Apostles, and they to the Church. The Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth. This Truth is reflected in her writings, found in the NT. What modern evangelicals have done, since they are separated from the Apostolic message, is extract what they can from the pages of Scripture. The extraction turns out to be quite different from what the Apostles believed and taught.It has become apparent that a large number of the Catholics I’ve encountered here at the CAF believe in a very different “gospel” from the truly wonderfully good news gospel found in the NT.
I found out when I took an historical theology class in seminary.Perhaps you will tell me how you came to know that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ. Are you a history professor? A historian? I’m just curious how you managed to know what lots of people (like me) don’t know. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just asking how you are able to know this.
So basically your saying that the more ignorant you are of anything but Scripture- the better Christian you are/?You don’t need anything but scripture to understand scripture?Hi MDK,
In that case your “gospel” is certainly not good news. If we can’t know the true church without a thorough understanding of history AND we are not really capable of correctly interpreting the bible when we study it, then your “gospel” is, in reality, rather poorly named, for it is horrible news.
Let’s see what God has to say about this!
Galations 1:6-17 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
Hi juliamajor,So basically your saying that the more ignorant you are of anything but Scripture- the better Christian you are/?You don’t need anything but scripture to understand scripture?
I’ve heard that announced several times-scripture only needs scripture to interpret.So we should shut down all bible schools that teach history, sociology, linguistics, archaeology and a plethora of other disciplines for aid in studying the Bible &just distribute biblesThe trouble is which one- which translation?Which ones the soundest, which text the truest? Being simplistic is not the same as simplicity .
I hate to tell you this but for thousands of years people have been exegeting the bible using other tools beside scripture.