What is the Catholic gospel message?

[MDK]

I hope this won’t offend you, but it seems to me that we ought to want to place ALL of our trust in what we desperately need for our salvation, and that is Jesus. Your “gospel” message is primarily about your religious institution, which never saved anyone, and can’t be good news since it is basically a message of “my church is better than your church”. How is THAT good news?

Your ignorance doesn’t offend me in the least, although I hope you are able to get beyond it to see Christ as He has truly revealed Himself and beautifully gives Himself to us. So, if you are ignorant of who Christ really has revealed Himself to be, and ignorant of what He has truly taught and established, how does anyone honestly place all their trust in the true Lord, Jesus Christ that they understand falsely? I ask this, because you really place your trust in a false version of Christ made to your likeness and liking, which is not authentically what He has revealed Himself to be.

Since you are ignorant of Christ, you do not understand the Scriptures, nor what He established as His Church. Like I’ve said before, the ignorant and prideful will try to separate Jesus from His Church. **Christ established this one Church as His Body. How can you separate the Head from the Body? ** Why do you keep asking to do this?

It is furthermore ignorant to claim that I am saying “my Church is better than your ecclesial community.” What I’m saying is that God’s Church (it’s really His because He built it) is the only one that is authentic and teaches without error, and ministers His Sacraments for His New Covenant family. You can add all the thousands of man made ecclesial communities together, and they would not even come close to God’s one Church. I am in this Church because Christ built it, and protects it. To those ignorant of the authentic God, they will see this as a substitute or surrogate. It is not either God or His Church. It is God and His Church.

**What I’m saying is that God’s one infallible Church is better than your error-prone ecclesial community. This is true. Not to understand this is to be out of touch with reality. **

**In God’s one Church, we receive the truth of Him without error and receive Him Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist. How is that Good News you ask? If you don’t know how this is good news, then you can’t really say you love God! **

 

[guanophore]

I hope this won’t offend you, but it seems to me that we ought to want to place ALL of our trust in what we desperately need for our salvation, and that is Jesus. Your “gospel” message is primarily about your religious institution, which never saved anyone, and can’t be good news since it is basically a message of “my church is better than your church”. How is THAT good news?

If what your truncated perception of “church” were correct, then your accusations would be true. As it is, they are not. The Gospel is about Christ. I have just read 12 posts saying this same thing in different ways. I think that you can’t even accept Christ from the Catholic Church!

You seem to need a way to justify yourself for rebelling against the Church founded by Christ. He only founded One. It is His Body.

One cannot be “in Christ” without being part of His One Body.

 

[Tim_in_MI]

I sometimes think of things this way:

There is no salvation outside of Christ.
The Church is the Bride of Christ.
Christ and the Church are One and Inseparable.
There is no salvation outside the Church.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

**How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g] Romans 10:14-45
**
Of course only God saves but Jesus isn’t received by osmosis-the gospel must be preached. The good news is the Churchs’ message-and she points us to the Trinity-not to herself.

Hi fhansen,

I agree. And I would add that any religious institution that tries to make itself the object of our loyalty and devotion is not a real church, and not even part of the real church. The church established by Christ is all about Him, and His goodness, and not all about itself.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

OK Mick Taylor

I answered this for you once already. I will assume you missed it

Mick you said–
I]added yet another combersome burden–“outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.”

You don’t understand and misrepresent this phrase.

As I already stated :

**Nope Mick-- you misunderstand that-- The Church is the Body of Christ. By means of his Church means that it is now through the Church (Universal- all members who make up the Body of Christ) that now spread and teach the Gospel. The Church is the means by which the world is evangelized.

CCC846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:**

Hi deanarrca,

Do you think that it’s really true that “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body”?

If this is true then no one who lived and died before Christ founded the church is in heaven. They all had to have gone to hell.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

I could not help but think of the history of the Hebrew people when reading this. I think there is an error in your premise. You see, salvation is of the Jews, and this is exactly what He did with the Jews!

Hi guanophore,

What exactly do you mean when you say that, “salvation is of the Jews, and this is exactly what He did with the Jews!”? Are you saying that salvation is of the Jews because Christ came from among the Jews, or are you saying that salvation is of the Jews because we must convert and become Jews, or is there some other point you’re trying to convey here?

 

[deanarrca]

Mick Taylor said* "Do you think that it’s really true that “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body”?

If this is true then no one who lived and died before Christ founded the church is in heaven. They all had to have gone to hell."*

Mick I think you are deliberately trying very hard to not get it.

Salvation is 100% By Grace Alone, through Faith (but not faith alone - faith and works are two sides of the same coin- If your faith doesn’t compel you to obedience/ works of charity - then it is not true faith) This is all made possible by Christ’s atoning sacrifice of dying on the cross.

The Church is entrusted with the great commission Matthew 28:16-20 The Church (The individual members that make up Christ’s Body) is entrusted to spread the Gospel and evangelize the world.

That does not then, by any stretch of the imagination, imply that the OT saints could not be saved like you suggested above

By his death and Resurrection, Jesus opened heaven (CCC 1026). Prior to that time all who died went to “hell”; however, the just went to a place in hell referred to as “the Bosom of Abraham,” where they would be comforted. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) seems to indicate that there were two parts of hell. Both Lazarus and the rich man died and went to hell, but Lazarus was comforted in the bosom of Abraham while the rich man was in a place of torment. A great chasm separated the two parts.

The Catechism explains,
Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”— Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. (CCC 633)

 

[guanophore]

I agree. And I would add that any religious institution that tries to make itself the object of our loyalty and devotion is not a real church, and not even part of the real church. The church established by Christ is all about Him, and His goodness, and not all about itself.

Mick, there is ONLY ONE CHURCH. This perception that you have of “not a real church” is a misunderstanding of the nature of Church.

How did you come by such a warped perception of Catholicism?

Do you think that it’s really true that “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body”?

Yes. There is salvation in no one else - He is the only name under heaven by which we may be saved.

If this is true then no one who lived and died before Christ founded the church is in heaven.  They all had to have gone to hell.

No, Mick, your understanding of the nature of Church is deficient, that is why you are struggling with this concept. You have been erroneously told that the Church is the “body of believers”. While this is true about the Church, it is much more than that, and includes also all those who have gone before us in faith.

Jesus is the Head of the Church, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. It is these divine elements that prevent her from error. She is infallible because she is divinely instituted, and indwelt.

 

[guanophore]

What exactly do you mean when you say that, “salvation is of the Jews, and this is exactly what He did with the Jews!”? Are you saying that salvation is of the Jews because Christ came from among the Jews, or are you saying that salvation is of the Jews because we must convert and become Jews, or is there some other point you’re trying to convey here?

Both things are true. He spent centuries doing exactly what you state He would not do, which is to single out and prepare a people for Himself. He chose to manifest Himself to them, and through them, and in the fullness of time, He entered into human history as one of them. You are misapplying the notion of “he is no respecter of persons”. He does have chosen people, and some people have special status and privilege that others do not enjoy.

 

[guanophore]

Mick Taylor said* "Do you think that it’s really true that “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body”?

If this is true then no one who lived and died before Christ founded the church is in heaven. They all had to have gone to hell."*

Mick I think you are deliberately trying very hard to not get it.

I don’t think so. I think he has been steeped in anti-Catholicism for so long he really can’t see it from our point of view.

 

[deanarrca]

>>I don’t think so. I think he has been steeped in anti-Catholicism for so long he really can’t see it from our point of view.<<

You are right- I apologize for my bit of snark- I shouldn’t have written that.

 

[guanophore]

>>I don’t think so. I think he has been steeped in anti-Catholicism for so long he really can’t see it from our point of view.<<

You are right- I apologize for my bit of snark- I shouldn’t have written that.

Well, you have correctly observed the presence of obstinancy. When engaged in a discussion it is useful to have the ability to at least perceive the argument from the other person’s point of view. Anyone who has ever been assigned to a debate team that had to argue something they did not believe or espouse has done this. What I see is an unwillingness to even try to see it from a different point of view, possibly from a fear that it would make too much sense!

 

[fhansen]

Hi fhansen,

I agree. And I would add that any religious institution that tries to make itself the object of our loyalty and devotion is not a real church, and not even part of the real church. The church established by Christ is all about Him, and His goodness, and not all about itself.

Yes, but we love and value the Catholic Church because she was established by God to tell us about Him and help guide us back to Him, faithfully keeping His “deposit of faith” intact throughout the centuries.

 

[Disciple96]

The Church is the Body of Christ. Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity, but we are members of His body. Christ is the Head of the Church and we are the body of the Church. St. Paul writes a lot about this reality, that we are One Body and that is the Body of Christ.

The understanding that we have as Catholics of the reality of the Church and her role in our lives and in our salvation is Biblical. But there are so many who do not understand it. The Church in the Bible and the church in much non-Catholic thinking are very different. For all that we are accused of not following the Bible, the truth is that we follow it very very closely.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

The Church is the Body of Christ. Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity, but we are members of His body. Christ is the Head of the Church and we are the body of the Church. St. Paul writes a lot about this reality, that we are One Body and that is the Body of Christ.

The understanding that we have as Catholics of the reality of the Church and her role in our lives and in our salvation is Biblical. But there are so many who do not understand it. The Church in the Bible and the church in much non-Catholic thinking are very different. For all that we are accused of not following the Bible, the truth is that we follow it very very closely.

Hi Disciple96,

It seems that we have reached an impasse here. I think that the reason why I don’t understand the Catholic emphasis on self glorification (the appearance of many Catholics to be worshiping the CC rather than God) is because:

A) Most you seem to take for granted that the CC is the church that Christ founded.

And,

B) Most of you seem to take for granted that since the CC is the body of Christ, this means that if I reject the CC, I’ve rejected Christ. In other words, there is no salvation outside the CC.

In order to break this impasse and bring some clarity to this discussion, it will probably be necessary for you Catholics to explain how you came to know that these two things are true. Not why you FEEL that they are true, but how you came to know that they are true. Thanks, in advance, for being patient with me!

 

[Disciple96]

Hi Disciple96,

It seems that we have reached an impasse here. I think that the reason why I don’t understand the Catholic emphasis on self glorification (the appearance of many Catholics to be worshiping the CC rather than God) is because:

A) Most you seem to take for granted that the CC is the church that Christ founded.

And,

B) Most of you seem to take for granted that since the CC is the body of Christ, this means that if I reject the CC, I’ve rejected Christ. In other words, there is no salvation outside the CC.

In order to break this impasse and bring some clarity to this discussion, it will probably be necessary for you Catholics to explain how you came to know that these two things are true. Not why you FEEL that they are true, but how you came to know that they are true. Thanks, in advance, for being patient with me!

Well, first of all, let me say that these are not things I feel. And when I first heard them, I was a very contented Buddhist.

It is not self-glorification to realize that the Church was founded by Christ. It is Biblical. If you will be patient with me, I can round up the Scriptural references.

In the meantime, would you mind explaining just exactly what church it is that you think Christ founded, if not the Catholic Church? (I’m not being flippant, I am genuinely asking. I’m all for honest and forthright discussion. I’m not trying to dis you or your ideas at all.)

 

[Disciple96]

Hi Disciple96,

It seems that we have reached an impasse here. I think that the reason why I don’t understand the Catholic emphasis on self glorification (the appearance of many Catholics to be worshiping the CC rather than God) is because:

A) Most you seem to take for granted that the CC is the church that Christ founded.

And,

B) Most of you seem to take for granted that since the CC is the body of Christ, this means that if I reject the CC, I’ve rejected Christ. In other words, there is no salvation outside the CC.

In order to break this impasse and bring some clarity to this discussion, it will probably be necessary for you Catholics to explain how you came to know that these two things are true. Not why you FEEL that they are true, but how you came to know that they are true. Thanks, in advance, for being patient with me!

Okay, Mick, here’s a page for starters. And this is an interesting page about why the Church is called catholic.

I’ll post more but this is a beginning.

 

[fhansen]

In order to break this impasse and bring some clarity to this discussion, it will probably be necessary for you Catholics to explain how you came to know that these two things are true. Not why you FEEL that they are true, but how you came to know that they are true. Thanks, in advance, for being patient with me!

For myself, logic alone wouldn’t allow me to continue to be Protestant. I argued the bible with Catholics, JWs, and other Protestants, round and round, and found that sincere people came up with often very sincerely different beliefs. Sola Scripture was untenable as a means to know the faith with certainty and there were few choices left when looking for an authority that could ensure we knew what God intended-due to the Churchs’ history it became Catholicism or nothing if I were to continue to be Christian at all, whether I liked it or not-and I didn’t much like the idea at first. Now I cherish the authority of the CC. None of this happened over night, however. Little by little I came to see the validity of the Churchs’ position regarding her own role and to come to agree with her on doctrine as well.

 

[MDK]

It seems that we have reached an impasse here. I think that the reason why I don’t understand the Catholic emphasis on self glorification (the appearance of many Catholics to be worshiping the CC rather than God…

Mick,
This is a terrible understanding of Catholicism and Cathoics, and falsely accuses of idolatry. To worship the Church would be idolatry. No Catholic I knows worships the Church. However, it is in and through the Church that we can best be close to Christ. You really can’t do that anywhere near as well outside the Church (please don’t interpret this as the physical building, because the reasons are obviously not this.)

It is because of Christ that I am Catholic, and for no other reason.

 

[guanophore]

It seems that we have reached an impasse here. I think that the reason why I don’t understand the Catholic emphasis on self glorification (the appearance of many Catholics to be worshiping the CC rather than God) is because:

A) Most you seem to take for granted that the CC is the church that Christ founded.

And,

B) Most of you seem to take for granted that since the CC is the body of Christ, this means that if I reject the CC, I’ve rejected Christ. In other words, there is no salvation outside the CC.

In order to break this impasse and bring some clarity to this discussion, it will probably be necessary for you Catholics to explain how you came to know that these two things are true. Not why you FEEL that they are true, but how you came to know that they are true. Thanks, in advance, for being patient with me!

I think you misunderstand “B”, but I will accept your postulation anyway. I became comvinced when I went to seminary and studied historical theology. The more I read about history, the more I realized that all the “denominations” were formed by how much of Catholic theology they rejected. When I read the early fathers, I realized that they were Catholic, and when I read the NT through the lens of the Apostolic Teaching, I realized that it was Catholic also.

To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant. Cardinal John Newman, a convert to Catholicism from the Anglican Church