What is the Catholic gospel message?

[MDK]

…B) Most of you seem to take for granted that since the CC is the body of Christ, this means that if I reject the CC, I’ve rejected Christ. In other words, there is no salvation outside the CC…

No, it’s not taken for granted, but what Christ taught. What you’re doing with your own salvation is taking things for granted, seeing them as you will. That’s propbably why you can’t see that we’re on solid ground.

A reason you’re rejecting Christ is because you’re rejecting those Christ sent. When you reject those Christ sent, it’s the same as rejecting Christ, and the One Who sent Christ. The ones Christ sent who are with us today include the Pope and Bishops in union with the Pope in the Catholic Church.

You are also missing Christ coming to us in the incomparable Eucharist, where the merits of His death on the cross are applied to our lives in our time. It is the most beautiful thing on Earth. I often get tears in my eyes during consecration, as it is so wonderful that Christ comes to us, feeding us and keeping us close to Him in this way, just as He said He would.

 

[guanophore]

What exactly do you mean when you say that, “salvation is of the Jews, and this is exactly what He did with the Jews!”? Are you saying that salvation is of the Jews because Christ came from among the Jews, or are you saying that salvation is of the Jews because we must convert and become Jews, or is there some other point you’re trying to convey here?

God chose, trained, purified, and prepared a people for HImself. He spent centuries doing this. You are denying that this is God’s nature, purpose, and intent.

Christ came from among the Jews BECAUSE they were His own people.

Rom 3:1-2
3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God.

The incarnation of Christ was the fulfillment of the oracles of God, entrusted to the Jews.

The messiah is the fulfillment of all the prophesies and commandments given to the Jews.

Your assertion that God does not choose and prepare a people especially for Himself is false.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Well, first of all, let me say that these are not things I feel. And when I first heard them, I was a very contented Buddhist.

It is not self-glorification to realize that the Church was founded by Christ. It is Biblical. If you will be patient with me, I can round up the Scriptural references.

In the meantime, would you mind explaining just exactly what church it is that you think Christ founded, if not the Catholic Church? (I’m not being flippant, I am genuinely asking. I’m all for honest and forthright discussion. I’m not trying to dis you or your ideas at all.)

Hi Disciple96,

I believe that the church founded by Christ is the universal church. It can be found wherever two or three are gathered in His name, and it is devoted to teaching from God’s word and worshiping Him in spirit and in truth.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Your assertion that God does not choose and prepare a people especially for Himself is false.

Hi guanophore,

where did I say this?

 

[guanophore]

It seems that we have reached an impasse here. I think that the reason why I don’t understand the Catholic emphasis on self glorification (the appearance of many Catholics to be worshiping the CC rather than God) is because:

I think there are two reasons for this. One is a deficient understanding of the nature of “church” and the other a deficient understanding of worship. It is understandible why you suffer from these deficiencies. Both are areas where the Reformers departed from the Apostolic Teaching.

 

[guanophore]

I believe that the church founded by Christ is the universal church. It can be found wherever two or three are gathered in His name, and it is devoted to teaching from God’s word and worshiping Him in spirit and in truth.

Although these characteristics are true of the Church, the deficiency is found by excluding the other marks of the true church. When one confines one’s perception of the Church to only these elements, it is easy to understand how one can fail to distinguish the Church founded by Christ from the counterfeits.

 

[guanophore]

Hi guanophore,

where did I say this?

It seems to me that if God wanted to make one particular religion or one religious institution the focal point for our attention and our loyalty He wouldn’t have Jesus telling one of the men crucified next to Him that, “today you will be with me in paradise.”

It is BECAUSE He prepared the Jewish people through is particular focus (religion?) for paradise that the thief was able to be with Him.

He chose the Jews from among all the peoples of the earth, taught them, revealed Himself to them, gave them the oracles, the Sacred Traditions, His Law,and the Prophets, Judges, and Kings. He commanded complete loyalty, and those who refused to participate were expelled or put to death.

 

[Disciple96]

Hi Disciple96,

I believe that the church founded by Christ is the universal church. It can be found wherever two or three are gathered in His name, and it is devoted to teaching from God’s word and worshiping Him in spirit and in truth.

Well, Mick, I believe what the Bible says. It’s not my personal belief or opinion or notion or anything else. It is what the Bible itself says. The Bible does not teach this notion that is commonly found among our separated brethren. It is a fiction that must be maintained by those who must convince themselves and others that they are justified in remaining separated. The Bible actually shows us Christ establishing His Church, appointing its leader among the Apostles by giving the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter as Christ re-institutes the Davidic Kingdom and appointing Peter as His Prime Minister. The Apostles are the members of His Cabinet with Peter as the Prime Minister or visible head of that cabinet, ruling on earth with power and authority granted by Him to rule in His Name.

If you want to listen to an excellent Bible study from a Catholic perspective, listen to Our Father’s Plan by Jeff Cavins and Scott Hahn. It’s a series of talks which you can download and listen to for free. (Here’s a whole page of Scott Hahn audio links.) If you will take the time to download and listen to these talks, I think you will understand why the Catholic Church is exactly who she claims to be. And who the Bible also claims her to be.

As Scott Hahn says: A Catholic should be a Bible Christian. And a Bible Christian should be Catholic.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

For myself, logic alone wouldn’t allow me to continue to be Protestant. I argued the bible with Catholics, JWs, and other Protestants, round and round, and found that sincere people came up with often very sincerely different beliefs. Sola Scripture was untenable as a means to know the faith with certainty and there were few choices left when looking for an authority that could ensure we knew what God intended-due to the Churchs’ history it became Catholicism or nothing if I were to continue to be Christian at all, whether I liked it or not-and I didn’t much like the idea at first. Now I cherish the authority of the CC. None of this happened over night, however. Little by little I came to see the validity of the Churchs’ position regarding her own role and to come to agree with her on doctrine as well.

What is it specifically that convinced you that “due to the Churchs’ history it became Catholicism or nothing”?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

It is because of Christ that I am Catholic, and for no other reason.

Can you elaborate?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

I think you misunderstand “B”, but I will accept your postulation anyway. I became comvinced when I went to seminary and studied historical theology. The more I read about history, the more I realized that all the “denominations” were formed by how much of Catholic theology they rejected. When I read the early fathers, I realized that they were Catholic, and when I read the NT through the lens of the Apostolic Teaching, I realized that it was Catholic also.

To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant. Cardinal John Newman, a convert to Catholicism from the Anglican Church

Hi guanophore,

You said:

The more I read about history, the more I realized that all the “denominations” were formed by how much of Catholic theology they rejected.

How did you determine this? Was it by your own personal judgment?

When I read the early fathers, I realized that they were Catholic, and when I read the NT through the lens of the Apostolic Teaching, I realized that it was Catholic also.

How did you determine this? Was it by your own personal judgment?

 

[diggerdomer]

The Bible actually shows us Christ establishing His Church, appointing its leader among the Apostles by giving the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter as Christ re-institutes the Davidic Kingdom and appointing Peter as His Prime Minister. The Apostles are the members of His Cabinet with Peter as the Prime Minister or visible head of that cabinet, ruling on earth with power and authority granted by Him to rule in His Name.

Must of what you say the Bible shows us here is not explicit. It all may be consistent with what the Bible says, but it’s not explicitly taught in the Bible.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

No, it’s not taken for granted, but what Christ taught.

So what you’re saying is that YOU are capable of correctly interpreting the bible on your own, but not people like me?

What you’re doing with your own salvation is taking things for granted, seeing them as you will. That’s propbably why you can’t see that we’re on solid ground.

How is what you’re doing any different than what you say I’m doing (seeing things as I will)?

A reason you’re rejecting Christ is because you’re rejecting those Christ sent. When you reject those Christ sent, it’s the same as rejecting Christ, and the One Who sent Christ. The ones Christ sent who are with us today include the Pope and Bishops in union with the Pope in the Catholic Church.

Do you have good reasons when you accuse me of “rejecting those Christ sent”? Where in the bible does it refer to a “chair of Peter” or a “pope”?

You are also missing Christ coming to us in the incomparable Eucharist, where the merits of His death on the cross are applied to our lives in our time. It is the most beautiful thing on Earth. I often get tears in my eyes during consecration, as it is so wonderful that Christ comes to us, feeding us and keeping us close to Him in this way, just as He said He would.

How did you come to know that in the Eucharist, Christ comes down from heaven PHYSICALLY to be with us?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

I think there are two reasons for this. One is a deficient understanding of the nature of “church” and the other a deficient understanding of worship. It is understandible why you suffer from these deficiencies. Both are areas where the Reformers departed from the Apostolic Teaching.

Hi guanophore,

You also seem to see yourself as having quite a great gift for correctly interpreting the bible. Why should we non-Catholics trust in YOUR supposedly non-deficient understanding of the bible? Are you a bible scholar?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Although these characteristics are true of the Church, the deficiency is found by excluding the other marks of the true church. When one confines one’s perception of the Church to only these elements, it is easy to understand how one can fail to distinguish the Church founded by Christ from the counterfeits.

Hi guanophore,

I don’t recall that I necessarily confined my perception of the church to only three elements. But more importantly, what is it specifically that makes YOU so skilled at bible interpretation that you can discern “other marks of the true church”?

 

[Disciple96]

Hi, Mick. I think we are going about this in a very roundabout way. I don’t know what you’ve read and what you haven’t, but I’m wondering if you have read the Fathers. (I’m old and I don’t remember if you’ve said this before or not, pardon me if I’m asking you something you’ve already answered). Read the history of the Church, the Fathers of the Church, and you’ll see that the version of things that so many people have in their heads now is a very recent, very modern construction and in very large part a fiction.

I believe it was Cardinal Newman who said:

“To be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant.”

Just give it a whirl. Then you’ll see for yourself why we see the things we see and why we say the things we do. Believe me, I understand the resistance. As I mentioned before, I certainly didn’t want to hear all this. I was very happy as a non-Christian Buddhist. But my friend begged me to look into Catholicism and I finally said I would, just to shut her up. Imagine my shock and dismay when I discovered that it was all true.

“Oh, no!”

I cried,

“I’m going to have to become…Catholic!”

But my commitment to the truth, and to following my search for truth wherever it led me, allowed me no other choice but to adhere to the truth I found. And so here I am, 15 years after beginning to look into the claims of the Church and 13 years after being received into that same Church. It’s been a most fascinating journey.

How amazing it was to learn that the Catholic Gospel message is none other than the one and only Gospel message of Jesus Christ Himself: Which leads us back to the original question:

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Here it is, The Catholic Gospel Message, which is none other than the one and only Gospel message of Jesus Christ Himself:***

That God the Almighty is the maker of heaven and earth,
and that Jesus Christ, our Lord, is His one and only Son,
Who was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit,
was born of the Virgin Mary and became man,
was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
suffered, died and was buried,
He descended unto the dead;
on the third day He arose in fulfillment of the Scriptures,
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father,
thence He shall come again to judge the living and the dead
and His Kingdom shall have no end;
that the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life
proceeds from the Father and the Son and with Them is worshiped and glorified,
and has spoken through the prophets,
that Christ established One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church,
instituted one baptism for the forgiveness of sins,
calls us to union with Him in the Communion of the Saints,
promises us the resurrection of the dead,
and the life in the world to come,
Amen.

---

That’s a general summation of the Gospel as proclaimed by the Holy Catholic Church each and every Sunday (and also in our daily prayers). Any error in the summary of it is due to my own faulty summation (and typing). If there is some other Gospel that differs substantially from that one, I’m not sure I would call it the Gospel.

 

[deanarrca]

Hi guanophore,

I don’t recall that I necessarily confined my perception of the church to only three elements. But more importantly, what is it specifically that makes YOU so skilled at bible interpretation that you can discern “other marks of the true church”?

OHOH OH Pick Me Mr Kotter Pick Me (maybe before your time)

Because he is not relying on his own personal Interpretation-

 

[Mick_Taylor]

It is BECAUSE He prepared the Jewish people through is particular focus (religion?) for paradise that the thief was able to be with Him.

Hi guanophore,

I disagree. Although it is true that God prepared for Himself a certain nation (the Israelites) through whom would come both the Messiah and the written word, the repentant thief on the cross next to Jesus was saved by grace, through faith in Jesus. Any attempt to attribute salvation to anyone or anything other than the grace of God is, of course, heresy.

 

[Disciple96]

Hi guanophore,

I disagree. Although it is true that God prepared for Himself a certain nation (the Israelites) through whom would come both the Messiah and the written word, the repentant thief on the cross next to Jesus was saved by grace, through faith in Jesus. Any attempt to attribute salvation to anyone or anything other than the grace of God is, of course, heresy.

I thought he was saved by Jesus. Does Jesus actually say, “You are saved by your faith in me” to the man? I thought He just said, “Verily, I say unto you, this day you will be with Me in paradise.”

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Well, Mick, I believe what the Bible says. It’s not my personal belief or opinion or notion or anything else. It is what the Bible itself says. The Bible does not teach this notion that is commonly found among our separated brethren. It is a fiction that must be maintained by those who must convince themselves and others that they are justified in remaining separated. The Bible actually shows us Christ establishing His Church, appointing its leader among the Apostles by giving the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter as Christ re-institutes the Davidic Kingdom and appointing Peter as His Prime Minister. The Apostles are the members of His Cabinet with Peter as the Prime Minister or visible head of that cabinet, ruling on earth with power and authority granted by Him to rule in His Name.

If you want to listen to an excellent Bible study from a Catholic perspective, listen to Our Father’s Plan by Jeff Cavins and Scott Hahn. It’s a series of talks which you can download and listen to for free. (Here’s a whole page of Scott Hahn audio links.) If you will take the time to download and listen to these talks, I think you will understand why the Catholic Church is exactly who she claims to be. And who the Bible also claims her to be.

As Scott Hahn says: A Catholic should be a Bible Christian. And a Bible Christian should be Catholic.

Hi Disciple96,

I’m glad that you believe what the bible says, but the crux of the issue here is HOW you came to know that the CC is the one founded by Christ. I’m very familiar with the verse (Matt. 16:18) which you interpret to mean that Jesus was making Peter our first pope. Would it be fair of me to point out that you are basing your trust in the CC on YOUR OWN PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE?