What is the Catholic gospel message?

[onenow1]

Here is the Protestant Problem/ dilemma- When did the Church become corrupt? Before or after the Bible was canonized? If you say before, then a corrupt Church canonized the Bible but then can’t be trusted- so therefore the canon of Scripture would be suspect. if you say after the Bible was canonized then because they were infallible and were the true Church in determining the canon of Scripture then they were also infallible in the other things of faith and morals they taught.

Jesus instituted a church dean, and he said the gates of hell, will not prevail . St. Paul on the road to Damascus found out.

Also this: Gamaliel speakeaking to the Sanhedrin in. Act 5:38 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail;

Peace and God bless onenow1:thumbsup:

 

[fhansen]

Hi Disciple96,

I have indeed taken a good look at the sources that have been offered as ‘proof’ that the CC is the same church that was founded by Jesus. Once again, I need to point out that if the Scriptures themselves can be wrongly interpreted then so can all historical documents be wrongly interpreted. So it seems to me that Catholics have completely relied on their OWN PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of various documents in order to reach their conclusions…exactly what they say is so horribly wrong with sola Scriptura! Such irony!

Mick, ultimately we all have to decide for ourselves what the truth is and who has it. As Christians we can all agree that none of us have it ourselves and we depend on the revelation God has granted in order to know anything worth knowing. We can pray that He’ll continue to lead us into the truth so we can “grow in the faith and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ”. But we must do our part by seeking and this job never ends. My advice for us all is to never stop-we should continue to study and seek God in every way we can-including to study the works of various writers and thinkers down through the years. I would give the CC a chance-withhold judgement as best as you can until you’ve heard more of her faith from her own sources which include encyclicals and other books/writings of popes and various councilliar documents and Augustine and Aquinas and ecclesiastical histories and ECFs and the catechism and lives of the saints. Spend time in William Jurgens Faith of the Fathers and Ludwig Otts Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If your faith as it now stands remains intact, then so be it but if it’s challenged then maybe it should be and you’ll begin to discover the vast wealth of thought and experience which is the legacy of our Church-and you’ll know that she’s on your side after all.

 

[MDK]

Hi Disciple96,

I have indeed taken a good look at the sources that have been offered as ‘proof’ that the CC is the same church that was founded by Jesus. Once again, I need to point out that if the Scriptures themselves can be wrongly interpreted then so can all historical documents be wrongly interpreted. So it seems to me that Catholics have completely relied on their OWN PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of various documents in order to reach their conclusions…exactly what they say is so horribly wrong with sola Scriptura! Such irony!

Mick,
I notice that you’re coming from a position of confusion and fear. There is a lot to be afraid of with falsehood and distortion. This is not of God. You’ll need to pray a lot, that Christ gives you His peace, and that you will know the truth that He has revealed. There is nothing to be afraid of with the truth.

 

[carolin_A]

Hi Disciple96,

Fancy that! I just rented and watched “No Intelligence Allowed” last night! And it was excellent! I predict that you’ll really like it too.

Mick, you seem to want to pick on the catholic church. That is the reason why you are in this site. You seem to get pleasure out of ridiculing the teachings of the church. No amount of arguing will help, if you do not have a open mind to discussion. Argument always has two sides. There is no winner. If you are happy being a follower of Christ in your own church, be it and follow your faith.

The most important part of the Gospel, be it Catholic Christian or other Christian denomination is to bring Christ to people who do not know him or want to have a relationship with him.

Sad to say lots of baptized Christians in particularly English speaking western countries, do not see the need to practice their faith and teach their children.Matt 18:1-14, Jesus teaches us about scandal, that leads consciences astray and those who seemed honest to fall. Jesus comes to seek and save the lost, to call the “outcast” not the respectable people. This should impel our Christian communities to constantly reach out to the unchurched and marginalized, instead of just working with those who already are in touch with the church.

Is western culture living in exile like in the days of Moses? Can we do something? Let’s try, even it is just one person. Hopefully our churches too will one day be filled with practicing Christians like in most Asian countries. God Bless

 

[Disciple96]

MIck, I have only one thing to say to you today…

How are ya?!

Now back to the actual subject of the thread, which is not the pursuing of Mick, but the Catholic Gospel message. (Although we did see in a string of posts some folks in action, sharing, in their own ways, that very message.)

I think the shortest way I can express the Catholic Gospel (which I earlier shared in a form based upon the Apostle’s Creed) is to repeat the words of Christ after His baptism, as He begins His public ministry:

"…The time is accomplished, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15, Douay-Rheims translation. (Read the whole chapter in the Douay.)

 

[CoachSTL]

Hi Disciple96,

I have indeed taken a good look at the sources that have been offered as ‘proof’ that the CC is the same church that was founded by Jesus. Once again, I need to point out that if the Scriptures themselves can be wrongly interpreted then so can all historical documents be wrongly interpreted. So it seems to me that Catholics have completely relied on their OWN PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of various documents in order to reach their conclusions…exactly what they say is so horribly wrong with sola Scriptura! Such irony!

Mick Taylor,

I have asuggestion for you. Try to see the Church established by Christ as a conglomerate of people following Christ’s Teaching. Start with Christ.

a) Jesus is the scource of the Teaching.
b) He started getting followers of His Teaching with Peter, and then the rest of the Apostles. He baptised them, which initiatied them in Him. The Church now had 13 people. Christ as the founder, scource, head and the body of believers. The CHURCH!
c) Continuing with Jesus and the Apostles, Jesus sent the Apostles (ordained them), after teaching them what to teach, to baptise more and get more followers. Now the Church is growing in full swing.
d) The Apostles taught the same message to others that Christ taught. They did not mess it up. They can’t. They sent others too in Jesus’ name (with His Divine authority). The Church is now growing larger everyday based on the person of Christ - His Teaching and Sacred Life (Sacred Tradition)
e) Jesus dies, but before He does, he established his authoritive office upon Simon, now Peter, this signified the divine change of the person Simon.
f) The full message that Jesus proclaimed then is still going strong today. Although, some, since Martin Luther, do not proclaim the full message - Sola Scriptura.

No history needed here. Just faith.

What is your version of the truth about the history of Jesus’ teaching.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

What if you’re wrong? … and you are very wrong indeed!

Perhaps you focus on wrong interpretations, because that’s what you’re familiar with. You’re looking at Catholicism as though it were Protestantism.

The Catholic faith has been handed down from Christ, from one generation to the next. We know for sure that nothing else has. The Scriptures can be interpreted without error, and history can be rightly read as well… just apparently not by you and those who do what you do.

Hi MDK,

Is it possible that you might be wrong?

It seems to me that most of you are far too confident that the CC is the one founded by Jesus even though none of you has been able to explain how you have come to know what you say you know. If it is important to God that we are Catholics, then God most certainly would have provided the means of knowing that the CC is His church.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Mick, I’m not sure we are saying the same thing. What I mean by faith and what you mean are very likely very different things. I don’t believe in faith alone, for example, and you probably do.

If we are not saved by grace alone through faith alone, then what is it that saves us from our sins?

 

[davidv]

Hi MDK,

Is it possible that you might be wrong?

It seems to me that most of you are far too confident that the CC is the one founded by Jesus even though none of you has been able to explain how you have come to know what you say you know.

How can one be too confident in the facts of the CC founding that are supported the facts of history.

If it is important to God that we are Catholics, then God most certainly would have provided the means of knowing that the CC is His church.

The Church is the means God provided for this knowing.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Mick said >>So it seems to me that Catholics have completely relied on their OWN PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of various documents in order to reach their conclusions…exactly what they say is so horribly wrong with sola Scriptura! <<

Umm no-- Christ taught the Apostles who passed down the proper interpretation and it has been preserved down through the ages. The proper Interpretation of scriptures can be seen through the early councils and writings of the Church Fathers. They show what the Church believed and how the Early church interpreted and understood the Scriptures.

Hi deanarrca,

Is there some way to KNOW that the CC is the true church without relying on your own private interpretation of history and Scripture? If so, please enlighten us! If not, then it will do no good–it will even appear hypocritical for you to pretend that Protestants like me are different from Catholics because we rely on our own private interpretation.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

MIck, I have only one thing to say to you today…

How are ya?!

Now back to the actual subject of the thread, which is not the pursuing of Mick, but the Catholic Gospel message. (Although we did see in a string of posts some folks in action, sharing, in their own ways, that very message.)

I think the shortest way I can express the Catholic Gospel (which I earlier shared in a form based upon the Apostle’s Creed) is to repeat the words of Christ after His baptism, as He begins His public ministry:

Hi Disciple96,

I’m doing fine! I hope you are too! Well said, BTW.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

How can one be too confident in the facts of the CC founding that are supported the facts of history.
The Church is the means God provided for this knowing.

Hi Davidv,

That is what I was afraid of. It does appear rather circular doesn’t it!

 

[Disciple96]

Hi Disciple96,

I’m doing fine! I hope you are too! Well said, BTW.

Thank you, Mick. (I didn’t work on my reviews last night cuz I wuz too tired. So I’m working on them today. Hope to post them in the next day or two…or three.)

The library closes in a few minutes, so I’m out of here. Hope you have a great evening! Cheers!

 

[MDK]

Hi MDK,

Is it possible that you might be wrong?

It seems to me that most of you are far too confident that the CC is the one founded by Jesus even though none of you has been able to explain how you have come to know what you say you know. If it is important to God that we are Catholics, then God most certainly would have provided the means of knowing that the CC is His church.

It would be possible for me to be wrong, but not God. When I follow what God established, I am not wrong. I am following what God established in the Catholic Church. So, no in this case, it is not possible that I am wrong.

Correction is that we’re appropriately confident. That you can’t be confident with what you have is appropriate as well. However, because you are not confident, you then can’t see how we should be confident either. This is your limitation, and not ours.

Do you recall how God taught in parables to the people, but revealed the teachings more directly, and plainly to His Apostles, and sent the Holy Spirit to His Apostles to teach and gave them authority? It is still that way. You must have the Godly Tradition to fully understand God’s message and the authority of those sent by God as well. Since you don’t have this, you flounder with misinterpreting His written word and you get nowhere.

The claims of the Catholic Church seem bold to those who do not know they are true, and those wonder how in the world the Church would make these claims. To those who do know, one would ask how it could be that they not make these claims.

The Church is God’s Church. God asks us to come taste and see His love. So, taste and see His Church. He made it so that you have to have a desire to find it, as He doesn’t make things so obvious that you have no choice. You have a choice, but He will not leave you stranded. Seek and you will find. The only ones not finding are the ones not truly seeking, which means with an open mind and heart genuinely seeking Him and His beautiful truth. Examine the claims of the Church and pray to find God’s Body. The Church stands up to all scrutiny and examiniation. If you look with a prejudice eye, you are not genuinely seeking.

You have to be on the right path to see these claims, and they stand up to reason as well… in other words, they make sense once you fully see what it is. To one on the wrong path, you’re just standing across the chasm yelling in darkenss at what you can’t see.

It’s clear from history, from Tradition, from Scriptures, from God that the Church is what it says it is. Taste and see.

 

[MDK]

If we are not saved by grace alone through faith alone, then what is it that saves us from our sins?

We are saved by God’s grace, through faith working in love.

Don’t you recall that faith without works is dead? What good is dead faith? Will it save you? No.

For one thing, Jesus told us that we must eat His Body or else we have no life in us. If you don’t do this, you have no life in you.

So, if faith requires works to complete it, then it’s not faith alone. It’s faith working in love.

 

[MDK]

Hi Davidv,

That is what I was afraid of. It does appear rather circular doesn’t it!

God’s Church resembles Him. So, how do you know Jesus is God? One thing we do is to trust in Him. For a man made organization, there is not the credibility of God behind it. But, the Catholic Church is not built by men, but by God, and so God’s credibility is in it. Taste and see.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

It would be possible for me to be wrong, but not God. When I follow what God established, I am not wrong. I am following what God established in the Catholic Church. So, no in this case, it is not possible that I am wrong.

You are arguing in a circle again, MDK. It is certainly possible that you are not following what God established. That is why I asked all of you… how you can KNOW that the CC is the same church that was founded by Jesus. The answers given always seem to follow the same circular path:

We know that we follow the true church because it is impossible for the gates of hell to prevail against Christ’s church, and we know that the CC is Christ’s church because the gates of hell have not prevailed against it.

Is this not circular? Yet, surprisingly, this is (to many of you) the good news:

That Jesus founded the CC, outside of which there is no salvation.

Correction is that we’re appropriately confident. That you can’t be confident with what you have is appropriate as well. However, because you are not confident, you then can’t see how we should be confident either. This is your limitation, and not ours.

As I see it, we ought to place all of our confidence in Jesus, and not in created things–even churches. Many religions will say, “We are the way.” But Jesus said, “I am the way.” It is Jesus, and He alone, who is worthy of all of our worship, praise, trust, and loyalty. No one comes to the Father except through Him.

 

[deanarrca]

Mick said>*>As I see it, we ought to place all of our confidence in Jesus, and not in created things–even churches. Many religions will say, “We are the way.” But Jesus said, “I am the way.” It is Jesus, and He alone, who is worthy of all of our worship, praise, trust, and loyalty. No one comes to the Father except through Him.<<
But you wouldn’t even know Jesus said “I am the Way” If it wasn’t for his Church. The Church that he Jesus created–

The Church came before the Bible- The Bible did not just appear out of thin air.

Christ founded the Church on Peter - a visible Church. The Apostles started visible Churches and gave instruction to those Churches.

I think I might trust the Church that gave the world the Bible- Why trust the Bible if you think the Church that determined what was Scripture was fallible and not the true Church?

I guess Christ, according to you, created his Church in vain since it is totally unnecessary in your mind.

 

[MDK]

You are arguing in a circle again, MDK. It is certainly possible that you are not following what God established. That is why I asked all of you… how you can KNOW that the CC is the same church that was founded by Jesus. The answers given always seem to follow the same circular path:

Like God does with us, I am trying to give you a choice to look at it, not bash you over the head. Unless you follow what I recommended, you’ll remain ignorant. With God, there is no circular path. Why do you act as though God were a fallible man?

Taste and see. The Church lives up to her claims.

We know that we follow the true church because it is impossible for the gates of hell to prevail against Christ’s church, and we know that the CC is Christ’s church because the gates of hell have not prevailed against it.

When you distort the overall scenario like this, you’ll never see. What you’ve repeated is a good thing to understand regarding the Church never having taught error. It’s not the whole picture. On this topic, now you need to look around. All the ecclesial communities which are not Catholic, have indeed taught error. So, the list of possibilities remains one Church. There is much more, and you need to look at the entire picture as much as you can.

Is this not circular? Yet, surprisingly, this is (to many of you) the good news:

That Jesus founded the CC, outside of which there is no salvation.

Properly understood, no it is not circular, unless you consider the Alpha and Omega circular. God is the beginning and end of all things. It depends on God.

Why would a man made ecclesial community give you salvation that you can only get from God? Yet, people believe that they can. In reality, their chances are much slimmer than if they are in God’s Church, obeying Him.

As I see it, we ought to place all of our confidence in Jesus, and not in created things–even churches. Many religions will say, “We are the way.” But Jesus said, “I am the way.” It is Jesus, and He alone, who is worthy of all of our worship, praise, trust, and loyalty. No one comes to the Father except through Him.

God is Head of His Church. If you don’t trust what He teaches through His Church, then you don’t trust God.

 

[onenow1]

God’s Church resembles Him. So, how do you know Jesus is God? One thing we do is to trust in Him. For a man made organization, there is not the credibility of God behind it. But, the Catholic Church is not built by men, but by God, and so God’s credibility is in it. Taste and see.

onenow1:

It’s kind of funny how the facts of history just get blown off as, supposition. I guess the Catholic and Orthodox did’nt excumunicate each other around 1000 AD. And I guess Irenaeus who probably was taught by St.John. in fact mentions the Catholic Church in 107 AD.And I’m sure even prior to that; Never Existed.

Peace and God Bless onenow1opcorn: