What is the Catholic "religious" experience?

[pmccombs]

Hello,

I am a practicing Mormon. I am also, in my personal convictions, quite agnostic. Indeed, I have a rather vicious streak of nihilism in me. This is to say that, not only do I find myself with a certain amount of doubt and uncertainty with regards to specific religious claims in general, but I feel that the chance of there actually being any intrinsic meaning in the universe beyond that which I make for myself is rather slim.

I am quite religious, however, and I believe that religion is a very important dimension of satisfying human lives. I consider myself a friend to many religions. One of my heroes, in fact, is the very Catholic G. K. Chesterton. I am impressed by his Distributism and, indeed, with the Catholic Social Teaching in general. I admit that I find these social teachings more satisfying than what I get in Mormonism (although our own Hugh Nibley did produce some excellent essays/lectures on the topic).

I am interested in the Catholic religious experience. In Mormonism, we have an epistemic emphasis. We must “know” that our church is “true.” This “knowledge” comes through a spiritual manifestation of some kind, typically something we accept as an affirmation bestowed by the Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost as we call it. We receive it through a spiritual sense; it ignites a fire in the heart.

We accept this as personal revelation, as faith-building experience, and as confirmation of the correctness of our teaching. These experiences often come in regards to specific questions or desires. Such experiences provide comfort and act as a guard against the more troubling or challenging aspects of the religion, its history, and its claims (although, like the Catholics and others, we do boast quite a few qualified apologists of our own who attempt to take on these challenges in a more academic way).

Sometimes our spiritual experiences are accompanied by other remarkable phenomena: audible voices, dreams, visions, healings, uncanny guidance or clairvoyance, and so forth. Yes, I have had some of these experiences myself.

What is the nature of the Catholic religious experience? What is it that keeps you believing? Why Catholicism and not something else?

 

[KathleenGee]

The Catholic experience is based on our Church’s construct of faith that Jesus lived, died and resurrected from the dead for us and to restore us to the Father.

Christ is the Son of God by Whom the Heavenly Father is well pleased; listen to Him.

Christ is the fulfillment of all the prophets, visions, voices, symbols, miracles of the Old Testament.

We experience Christ in the His Word and especially in the Mass - the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, as well as participation of His absolution of sins in the sacrament of penance. We are incorporated into the life of Christ through baptism and recall our baptismal promises every time we enter the church and bless our selves with the Sign of the Cross with Holy Water.

Our priesthood is a sacrament based on the order of Melchizedek…who knew no beginning or end…fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the Perpetual Sacrifice Melchizedek foretold.

Our matrimony is a sacrament between the couple, the priest acting as witness to their mutual vows.

Confirmation is a strengthening and deepening of the Holy Spirit already given at Baptism. We have the sacrament of healing for those who are sick or dying.

Our spiritual experience is as varied as the countless members of the universal church, but the fruit must be Jesus Christ…an enrichment of the knowledge and experience we already have of Him.

Our life is centered on Christ and lived out through the various seasons of the liturgical year bringing daily reflections and growth and celebration of life with specific themes.

God bless you!

 

[domandcarols]

Because the Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

 

[philial]

History - we can trace the Catholic Church back to the apostles, and the Eucharist, which fulfills the promise of the Shekinah in Jewish Temple worship.

But our religious experience is that of the Body united with the head in giving praise to the Father by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. So certain are we of this that we do not rely on extraordinary events in our services, allowing the service itself to be our extraordinary event!

Yes, we have some people who experience strange things, but it would be an act of arrogance to interrupt the Mass to call attention to the self in such a way.

It always amuses me the so many anti-catholics claim that the Church was invented by Constantine, yet are unable to refute (therefore choose to ignore) the many Church fathers that came before that point in history to preach about the Eucharist in the Catholic Church.

 

[Hail_Linus]

I am always pleased to converse with an admirer of Chesterton.

What is the nature of the Catholic religious experience?

The Catholic experience varies greatly from person to person. For some it is very intellectual for others it is more emotional. Dominicans are different from Franciscans. Just two examples. In other words, Catholicism has a place for many different kinds of spirituality.

What is it that keeps you believing?

Keep in mind I am referring to Catholicism and not necessarily Catholics.
The whole concept of Loving one another as God loves us was revolutionary. Where would the world be without Catholicism. The only religion comparable is Judaism and the Jews, then and now, had no interest in spreading their religion. Even the good that atheists and agnostics do due to the influence of Catholicism. If the world had remained pagan we would never have had Live Aid.

Why Catholicism and not something else?

In addition to the reasons above I would also say:

1. 
   *]All other religions are based on a myth. Jesus was a real person and the fact is that he did make a Church. I see no proof of apostasy. I do see a chain of eveidence from the beginning to the present state of the Church showing continuity.
   
   *]Catholicism is the only thing that cannot change. I think there is something seriously flawed with a belief system that is not based on firm beliefs. All other religion’s morals are relative. If you have the truth then the truth does not change. 2+2 has always equaled 4 and it always will. Because of the fixed “truths” only the Catholic Church can truly make progress. Other religions can never measure progress because they do not have a fixed goal.

 

[pmccombs]

KathleenGee, thank you for your response. I understand from it that the Catholic experience is not so much one of “knowing,” but of “being.” It is through participation that you find religious fulfillment.

Domandcarols, your reply is a mystery to me. Why do you say that the Church is One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic?

Philial, your answer seems to confirm the participatory nature of the Catholic experience, but you also use some words that are of some concern to me: History, you say, is an important part of your religious conviction. You speak of “certainty,” but how do you achieve it? You speak of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit; this is familiar talk to a Mormon! What do you mean by that? You seem to indicate that a type of “knowing” is in order.

Mormonism doesn’t have a particular liturgy at all, and our meetings are rarely interrupted by any spiritual tremors (rather, by children fussing in the congregation!). The Mormon, however, seeks validation through a very private spiritual seeking. We want to be on our knees asking questions and waiting for promptings. Our scriptures ask us: “What greater witness can you have, than from God?” And we are taught what to look for and how to find it. Then the hard problems fade to the background (Polygamy? Polyandry? etc.) and we are willing to put those aside until some later time when, we are assured, all will make perfect sense.

So, what makes the genuine Catholic? I’m sure you know putative Catholics, just as I know putative Mormons; some are merely with us because that was what their parents taught them, and they have always taken it for granted. Questioning one’s faith produces such an uncomfortable, panicky knot in the stomach; it’s best simply never to examine it too critically!

It seems that in every religion there is a true conversion experience, though. How do you know when you’re definitely Catholic? Does the Church have any teaching regarding how to seek this conversion, and how do you know when it has come? To the seeker of truth, what is the most persuasive thing Catholicism has to offer? Perhaps it differs for each of you.

 

[pmccombs]

Hail_Linus,

Thank you very much for your reply. I am very grateful for a Catholic church, and for Catholics who live their religion, where love for one’s neighbor is a principal doctrine. The world is better off with a strong Catholic Church, and I wish it well.

It seems to me, from what I am reading so far, that there is no Catholic “formula” for conversion. This is different from Mormonism, where we are told that we must become acquainted with the teaching and then ask God (with an open, accepting mind) in order to find out for ourselves if the “Church is True”—the perceived outrageousness of some teachings or events notwithstanding!

Mormons will similarly make appeals to history and to certain evidences in support of our beliefs. But I find that the past is a strange and foreign land; history is available to all of us religious cherry-pickers to take what we like and leave what we despise. If I listen to a Catholic, it is quite evident that the modern Catholic Church is justified by the known facts. If I listen to a Mormon, why, wouldn’t you know it? All sorts of Mormonism appears in early Christianity. And if I listen to Dr. Bart Ehrman, the whole thing is a shambles of disparate, competing beliefs right from the very beginning! Jesus himself, as an historic figure, is barely tenable. An original Christian church? Nonsense! Even the apostles, it would seem, couldn’t even agree.

What to make of all this? Who should I believe? And why?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Perhaps it differs for each of you.

This, I think, is a valid observation, understanding, nevertheless, that there are some things that are fairly common to all.

Some people are intellectually persuaded, at least initially, as was Chesterton. This was helpful to him in developing faith, which is a different thing from intellectual persuasion. For Catholics or those interested in the subject, it isn’t terribly difficult to become intellectually persuaded because of the richness of the Catholic writings, and not only those of theologians. There is a 2,000 year history of the writings of the best and brightest, the holiest and of the most inspired. No stone at all is unturned. A lifetime would not suffice to study it all, but a lifetime is sufficient to delve deeply into it if one is of that particular bent.

Some are persuaded by experience, which, for most Catholics does not include such things as visions, let alone things that are often described as “paranormal”. The Church is rather suspicious of dramatic phenomena. What it is not suspicious of are the interior reflections one has; some of which are brought on by prayer or study or liturgies, and many, many experience them on a regular basis. Nevertheless, something needs to be said about mysticism, which is not strange to the western Church, but is a significant part of the Eastern Church. Mysticism is, and intends to be, experiential. All Catholics, both eastern and western, would say, however, that it needs to be guided and directed by the means the Church has of doing that.

Some develop an enhanced devotion to the Eucharist. If, as we believe, it really is the body and blood of Jesus Christ and if He is truly God, then the experience of the Eucharist is as close as a living being comes to heaven. Some are very much aware of that and do experience it. Others, who are not quite ready to fully accept it, or who have not thought about it sufficiently, may not have that experience.

Some have a sort of feeling of the weight of history and the massiveness of the Communion of Saints, and sort of lose the “timeclock separation” between them and, say the early martyrs, the doctors of the Church and those other, innumerable holy people who have gone before us. For such people, (as Faulkner said of the South) the “air is thick with spirits”, and their presence is strongly felt.

Some have a strong attraction to obedience. Such people are often sinners despite their best efforts; sometimes great sinners, but, believing for whatever reason, subject themselves to the penitence of the Church. The Catholic belief in Grace and its power often turns such people to “conversion” to yet another way of living their faith.

Some, for whatever reason (and it can be any number of them) reach a point where they make a conscious choice to abandon themselves to faith. “Faith” is not quite “belief”, it’s more like “trust”. While not true of all, in many people there is a deep desire to do that; to abandon oneself to a known “meaning to life” which, if they make the step, brings peace. Such people often find themselves strongly attracted to charitable works and perform them strictly out of love of God and those whom God charges us to serve. Not surprisingly, it is easier to do that when one knows one has the weight of 2,000 years and uncountable saints, scholars and mystics as underpinnings of his decision in favor of abandonment.

A person more familiar with the subject than I could do a much better job. I am not in any manner attempting to exhaust the subject. My only point is that, yes, it differs with different people.

 

[Hail_Linus]

Hail_Linus,
It seems to me, from what I am reading so far, that there is no Catholic “formula” for conversion. This is different from Mormonism, where we are told that we must become acquainted with the teaching and then ask God (with an open, accepting mind) in order to find out for ourselves if the “Church is True”—the perceived outrageousness of some teachings or events notwithstanding!

I was raised Catholic but did question my faith and fell away eventually to Atheism. Then I began to question my Atheism and see that it leads to madness (true logical atheism, not the ridiculous Dawkins Atheism). Eventually I did have an unwilling conversion experience. By this point I was an agnostic sort of Christian. I tried to talk my way out of it through researching history but found that I could not.

Mormons will similarly make appeals to history and to certain evidences in support of our beliefs. But I find that the past is a strange and foreign land; history is available to all of us religious cherry-pickers to take what we like and leave what we despise. If I listen to a Catholic, it is quite evident that the modern Catholic Church is justified by the known facts. If I listen to a Mormon, why, wouldn’t you know it? All sorts of Mormonism appears in early Christianity. And if I listen to Dr. Bart Ehrman, the whole thing is a shambles of disparate, competing beliefs right from the very beginning! Jesus himself, as an historic figure, is barely tenable. An original Christian church? Nonsense! Even the apostles, it would seem, couldn’t even agree.

What to make of all this? Who should I believe? And why?

I read Bart Ehrman books and I do find some interesting information but he is not really a great thinker. He is great at textual criticism. There are many serious wholes in is many arguments against Christianity. The competing Christian sects he talk about were kind of anti-semitic. They even believed Jesus was a different God from the Jewish God. Now if there is one thing all people who believe in Jesus, the man, can agree on is that he was a Jew and he claimed to be the Jewish Christ. Those Gnostic groups were very anti-Semitic and they did not have the wonderful message of the Gospel.

Bart Ehrman’s problem is that he was an Evangelical Christian who believed in Sola Scriptura. Once he found out the truth that all modern-day Christians descended from the Catholic Church he had to choose to be Catholic or not be a Christian at all.

If you are interested in pursuing this further I invite you to start a thread about Bart Ehrman and I will rebut all of his arguments.

 

[Ranp]

Domandcarols, your reply is a mystery to me. Why do you say that the Church is One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic?

He said it because it is part of the definition of the Catholc faith as expressed in the Nicene Creed of 325 AD (see the blue line below). The creed is recited during every Mass.

• There is only one Catholic church, lead by the Bishop of Rome (ie. the Pope).
• The Catholic Church is holy, having been created directly by the hand of Jesus Christ (unlike other churchs that were created by men).
• The Catholic Church is universal and was first called Katholikos (greek for unversal) in the year 107 AD.
• The Catholic Church is apostolic in that the bishops of the Church receive their authority through a direct traceable lineage back to the apostles of Jesus Christ

The above cannot be said of any other church.

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Ran Pleasant

 

[pmccombs]

Ridgerunner,

Your reply was excellent. I agree with you on the quality of Catholic writings, and wish we had more like them in Mormonism. Alas, we seem to be going backward in that regard with our “correlation” efforts of the late 20th century eviscerating the rich Mormon religious vocabulary in an effort, as I see it, to become more mainstream and orthodox. Indeed, some of the Catholic complaints against Mormon “heresy” are hardly relevant anymore (and I consider this a pity, for I quite enjoyed the early, adventuresome Mormon theology ).

Also, your commentary on faith is quite excellent.

Linus,

I have no idea whether or not Dr. Ehrman is a good thinker, but I suppose he is sincere, and certainly a lot more educated on the subject than I. My take on his “problem” is similar to yours, only I see Christianity truly falling apart for him completely rather than a sort of Catholic jealousy that demanded a forced interpretation of the evidence. For him, the “proto-orthodox” were merely one Christian voice among many, and they happened to win the debates and bring their version of things along with them, establishing a notion of “orthodoxy” in the process. I suspect there is really no way to read the past clearly, and that Dr. Ehrman’s take on it is as good as any. Certainly you must disagree with this. Perhaps doubt could be cast upon his scholarship, but I suppose not extraordinary doubt, save in the minds of those whose confirmation bias already runs strongly in another direction.

I am very interested in your experiences as a converted Atheist. What sort of conversion was yours, more intellectual or more spiritual?

 

[leslie1201]

Domandcarols, your reply is a mystery to me. Why do you say that the Church is One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic?

In the Nicene Creed that is said by all during Mass, we recite, “I believe in one holy Catholic (which means universal) and Apostolic church.”

.

It seems that in every religion there is a true conversion experience, though. How do you know when you’re definitely Catholic? Does the Church have any teaching regarding how to seek this conversion, and how do you know when it has come? To the seeker of truth, what is the most persuasive thing Catholicism has to offer? Perhaps it differs for each of you.

I do believe we each have our own conversion story with different “emotional” triggers while staying within the teachings of the Church. I converted from a protestant religion at 19. I was active in the Church for a while after coverting. I have recently come home at the age of 44 (now 46). I can tell you the most persuasive thing to me that Catholicism has to offer is the sacrament of Communion. I truly believe in transubstantiation (the bread and wine actually becoming the body and blood of Christ). I can’t wait each week to go to reconciliation and take communion (I definitely don’t want to be in a state of mortal sin while taking communion.) It is like a burst of sunshine in my soul and helps me throughout the week. To me personally, this is how I know I am definitely and unabashedly Catholic.The sacraments themselves are all a grace from God and I do embrace (of course except the sacrament of Holy Orders since I am neither a Priest or a Nun) all of them

. I discovered a deep love and respect and awe for my Catholic faith after coming home and taking the time to study and educate myself. I love the richness of the traditions. I love the prayers given us that so move me such as the Divine Mercy Chaplet and the Holy Rosary. I think you will find in others, like myself, there may be one thing that draws but it is all the rest that keeps us.

Good luck in your education quest.

Leslie

 

[pmccombs]

Ranp and Leslie,

I am familiar with the creed, but why does the creed say these things that you must recite them? It is an anamnesis; an entering into a past memory. And what makes you believe in it? Are we to believe in things merely because they were written anciently? The ancients could be quite fanciful in their writing; life was such a wonder to them in those days! But a sadness has come upon the earth, when we looked out into space and realized that the stars make such a random, jumbled mess in the cosmos. The creed is true, poetically, is it not? But is it true substantially? How do we know? Must we know?

 

[pmccombs]

Also, Leslie, thank you for sharing your experience with the Communion. That is absolutely beautiful.

 

[leslie1201]

Ranp and Leslie,

I am familiar with the creed, but why does the creed say these things that you must recite them? It is an anamnesis; an entering into a past memory. And what makes you believe in it? Are we to believe in things merely because they were written anciently? The ancients could be quite fanciful in their writing; life was such a wonder to them in those days! But a sadness has come upon the earth, when we looked out into space and realized that the stars make such a random, jumbled mess in the cosmos. The creed is true, poetically, is it not? But is it true substantially? How do we know? Must we know?

Pmccombs,
It is actually a profession of our faith. It is what we believe. When during Mass we stand and profess our faith, we are stating what we believe as Catholics. It also becomes a guide for us and how to be more fulfilled within our faith.

 

[Hail_Linus]

Ranp and Leslie,

I am familiar with the creed, but why does the creed say these things that you must recite them? It is an anamnesis; an entering into a past memory. And what makes you believe in it? Are we to believe in things merely because they were written anciently? The ancients could be quite fanciful in their writing; life was such a wonder to them in those days! But a sadness has come upon the earth, when we looked out into space and realized that the stars make such a random, jumbled mess in the cosmos. The creed is true, poetically, is it not? But is it true substantially? How do we know? Must we know?

The purpose of reciting the creed is to reaffirm our beliefs.

You can only believe these ancient writings if you accept Jesus as the Christ.

BTW Cosmos is the opposite of Chaos. Are you saying the Cosmos is made up of Chaos? I don’t think we have realized this. We really do not have sufficient facts to make this type of determination and we never will.

May I ask what Chesterton books you have read?

 

[blueadept]

Being married to a Mormon for 7 years, it gives me an interesting perspective I believe. My wife’s best LDS spiritual experience occured when she went to the Temple and when we attended General Conference. She said she felt the spirit on occasion during some of her meetings as well.

For myself, my spiritual experiences happened after I figured out what Adoration was and what the Eucharist really is. Add events such as the LA Religious Education Congress with 40,000 other on-fire Catholics and events like World Youth Day in Madrid with 1.5 million other Catholics, it’s not hard to have a spiritual experience.

IMO for many Catholics, the ‘spiritual’ experience is due to receiving God’s grace through the 7 sacraments of the Catholic church. I was separated from being able to receive the Eucharist/Reconciliation for a couple years while I worked on getting my marriage blessed in the RCC which eventually happened.

The interesting thing was that didn’t feel anything spiritual in my wife’s great LDS moments and I know she didn’t feel anything during my great Catholic moments. It’s no wonder IMO she eventually wanted a civil divorce.

 

[pmccombs]

Hail_Linus,

I have read all of “What is Wrong With the World,” bits of “Charles Dickens,” and bits of “Everlasting Man” (which I am interested in finishing). I have also read quite a number of Chesterton’s poems… he only wrote a few dozen, it seems. I have also read some essays. Mostly I am interested in his Distributism.

Your point about the Cosmos is an interesting one. You are right that we don’t have enough facts and can’t ever know… of course, that is the Agnostic creed. But, things have an appearance, and we interpret them as best we can. An intuition, if you like. It is a realization of my own, and of many others who lack a certain religious certainty.

 

[pmccombs]

blueadept,

Thank you for your perspective. I’m sorry to hear about your divorce; it is said that marriages that cross religious boundaries sometimes don’t last. I hope that you have since found joy and contentment in your life.

It is indeed interesting what you said about how you both were mutually unable to participate in the other’s religious experience.

I think Blaise Pascal once said something to the effect that we all have a void in our hearts in the shape of God. It feels like being homesick or perhaps missing someone, only it’s a longing for the divine. I have a feeling that this “God-shaped void”, if you will, is not the same for everyone and that it can change over time. I suppose this accounts for all of the conversions to and from the various faiths. Our hearts change; we find Jesus in the oddest places. Our longing can only be filled by faith, and when it is, we often find what we seek: certainty.

I am troubled by the primacy claims of my Church and of yours. Religion is not a thing to trifle with, and such claims must be taken seriously. Is the Catholic Church the only way to God? Who has the authority to impose such a possibility on the consciences of men? How can we know it? It seems that, with stakes so high, there must be a great deal of certainty in one’s mind. Is faith certainty? How certain are you of the truth and holiness of your Church?

 

[icamay]

I find that one major difference between my Catholic and Mormon friends is the sharing of any testimonials that has led us to our faith. The Catholics that I know tend to be more private about our experiences, which leads many Mormons that I know to just assume that we don’t have what my LDS friends refer to as “testimonies”. I will be honest - my calling to the RCC has been such a dramatic experience that upon sharing it with a nun that I began to confide in early on in my journey, she quietly suggested that it is borderline mystical, and that can be overwhelming for some of us.

So, to answer your questions while treading carefully not to cross that line:

What is the nature of the Catholic religious experience?

As expressed before, it is quite different in accordance to each person, and like LDS, is more of a journey than just one lone experience. Mine didn’t begin as a specific pro-Catholic experience, but more of a correction of theologies when I was young - I couldn’t have been older than 4, as my siblings had not yet been born. Simply, I was told by a religious leader (not Catholic) that I would suffer in hell because I was not born in wedlock. I heard the thundering voice not of this world tell me to tell him that all children go to Heaven to be with Jesus. So I did. In front of the entire congregation. Then I realized what I did, wet myself, and had to be driven home to confess to my unwed mother.

What is it that keeps you believing?

I think that even if I didn’t have these regular experiences to keep me reminded of my Lord (and trust me, when I don’t listen, He YELLS), just the peace and contentment from practicing my faith is enough to keep me in it. I remind my non-believing friends of this - if what I am doing makes me a happier person and a better person to be around, why would you take that away from me by trying to change my mind? Thus being so, I use that as my Golden Rule for religious tolerance in my life.

Why Catholicism and not something else?

For 33 years, it was “something else”, but honestly, I was always searching for it. I was raised that I could be anything, any faith at all, except one - Catholic. So I just ruled it out immediately and have been on a journey ever since. Until my latest major experience, in which, out of literally no where, I was praying for guidance, as 33 years of searching had exhausted me. That voice (the loud, thunderous one) said “why have you not looked at My house?” And I didn’t understand. So it spoke every time I prayed. And then it SCREAMED. sigh You have never met anyone louder than our Lord when He’s on a mission!

So, I’ve either been called to the RCC, or I’ve been crazy since about 3 years of age.