What is the Catholic response to the Orthodox view of Heaven and Hell?

[SoulRebel777]

Through email Ive been talking to an Orthodox Priest . Hes been telling me that the Orthodox teach there is no heaven or hell YET. He said this was brought up in the Council of Florence.

I never knew they believed this , what does our Catholic faith say in response to this?

God bless

 

[Cari]

Where is the Blessed Trinity, then? Where is Satan and the other fallen angels?

The Church teaches that Heaven exists, as it says Jesus ascended into Heaven. Mary was assumed into Heaven. The angels in heaven rejoice over each sinner who converts.

 

[Peter_J]

Through email Ive been talking to an Orthodox Priest . Hes been telling me that the Orthodox teach there is no heaven or hell YET. He said this was brought up in the Council of Florence.

I never knew they believed this , what does our Catholic faith say in response to this?

God bless

I’m not sure if the “Eastern Catholicism” forum is the best place to put this question; but since you did, I’ll take a crack at responding to it. (I say “responding” b/c I don’t have an answer per se.)

This strikes me as an awfully technical issue, along the lines of “Does Hell exist even before anyone goes to Hell?” I’ve heard/read a lot of discussion between Catholics and Orthodox, and I can’t even remember this issue coming up.

Do you want to quote something the Orthodox priest said? That might give us more to go on.

 

[jimmy]

Through email Ive been talking to an Orthodox Priest . Hes been telling me that the Orthodox teach there is no heaven or hell YET. He said this was brought up in the Council of Florence.

I never knew they believed this , what does our Catholic faith say in response to this?

God bless

I think you may have misinterpreted what he meant. Within the Orthodox Church there is an idea that you don’t enter heaven until the second coming.

Where is the Blessed Trinity, then?

Whether what the op said is true or not this question is irrelevent. Heaven can’t contain the Trinity.

 

[Nicholas82]

It is said that after death the soul experiences either a foretaste of heaven or hell, according to how one lived one’s life.

As St. John the Wonderworker said in a homily on life after death:

“Some souls find themselves(after death) in a condition of foretasting eternal joy and blessedness, and others in fear of the eternal torments which will come in full after the Last Judgment. Until then changes are possible in the condition of souls, especially through offering for them the Bloodless Sacrifice (commemoration at the Liturgy), and likewise by other prayers.”

Thus the Orthodox would say it is possible to actually pray a soul from hell. In the Church prayers are ever offered for the repose of the dead, and on the day of the Descent of the Holy Spirit, in the kneeling prayers at vespers, there is even a special petition “for those in hell.”

The teaching is that until the Final Judgement a soul neither experiences the full experience of blessedness(heaven) nor the full experience of torment(hell). At the Resurrection our bodies will be reunited with our souls and we will fully experience either Heaven or Hell. The condition of those enjoying a foretaste of eternal joy can only become progressively better, they hear our prayers and pray for us, they are Saints; those experiencing a foretaste of hell are helped by our prayers, almsgiving, etc.

We do not believe in a third place called “Purgatory”. Even the West’s favorite St Augustine refers somewhere in his writings(God help me, I will probably never find the quote, I’ll try) to basically this same concept.

Man, I’ve tried to explain this to the best of my ability but I still feel like I haven’t done that great a job. If anyone can help with further explaination or reading suggestions please do!

 

[bpbasilphx]

No heaven or hell yet?

That’s odd.

Why does the Our Father locate the Addresse as being “in heaven”?

Furthermore, the liturgical texts for the Sunday after Ascension, which are used both by Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine-rite Catholics clearly say that Arius is in hell. How could that be if it doesn’t yet exist?

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

No heaven or hell yet?

That’s odd.

Why does the Our Father locate the Addresse as being “in heaven”?

Furthermore, the liturgical texts for the Sunday after Ascension, which are used both by Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine-rite Catholics clearly say that Arius is in hell. How could that be if it doesn’t yet exist?

Yeah, its pretty weird…here is how I found out about this from this post:

•                 Originally Posted by **prodromos***                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3777279#post3777279)

** No one will be in Hell until the final judgment after the second coming** and until that day we believe that no one’s fate is sealed. Until the final judgment we believe they receive a foretaste of the destination towards which they are headed. We pray for the dead and ask their prayers because we are one body and we love each other. While the person who has died is no longer able to do any good works towards repentance, there is absolutely nothing preventing God from making complete in them anything they were lacking. Since we are in no position to judge the condition of the souls of our dearly departed we continue to beg God’s mercy upon them. It is an act of love and is in obedience to Christ’s commands.

 

[Nicholas82]

No heaven or hell yet?

That’s odd.

Why does the Our Father locate the Addresse as being “in heaven”?

Furthermore, the liturgical texts for the Sunday after Ascension, which are used both by Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine-rite Catholics clearly say that Arius is in hell. How could that be if it doesn’t yet exist?

Now my interest is peaked. To my knowledge the Church doesn’t declare anti-saints, yes? What would you say is deficient in my understanding? As I understand it, heaven is where God is; closeness to God. Is your point that we should use Heaven and Hell as terms that apply to the deceased even before the Final Judgement when the position of souls joined to their bodies in torment will be eternal, or is the soul judged twice? I mean no disrespect nor do I mean to promote my understanding, I am sincerely curious as to what you mean. Is Arius the only person to officially be damned? What of other terrible sinners? Or does arius’s being “in hell” not preclude the possibility of salvation?

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

To my knowledge the Church doesn’t declare anti-saints, yes?

The Catholic Church does not cannonize people in Hell. Therefore, we can not absolutely know the state of a particular person soul unless He/She is a cannoized saint; therefore, its all speculation.

 

[Cari]

Whether what the op said is true or not this question is irrelevent. Heaven can’t contain the Trinity.

Nobody said anything about “containing” the Trinity. However, it is clear from Scripture that the Trinity dwells in Heaven.

 

[Peter_J]

Yeah, its pretty weird…here is how I found out about this from this post:

Whether or not the Orthodox are “weird” really isn’t the subject of the Eastern Catholicism forum.

I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that this entire thread ought to be moved to a different forum, such as “Non-Catholic Religions”.

 

[mark_a]

Furthermore, the liturgical texts for the Sunday after Ascension, which are used both by Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine-rite Catholics clearly say that Arius is in hell.

Is this the hell of eternal torment or the “decended to the dead” hell?

 

[Catholic4Christ]

I thought Christ told the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise on that day? And I thought that Elisha was assumed into heaven? I would have thought the Lord wasn’t saying and doing these dramatic things to send someone to a “sorta-heaven”, but I’m no genius.
just my two cents. :whacky:

 

[wjp984]

Please tell me Eastern Catholics do not believe this. I’ll change rites before I believe something like this. I’m starting to become more comfortable with the deLatinization of the Eastern Churches since they both really do say the same thing but use a different way of getting to the same conclusion. However, how do you reconcile this? I hope that deLatinization does not mean being forced to believe this.

What is the second coming does not happen for billions of years? I mean the earth is going to last another few billion years and by that time we will have the technology to colonize other planets. God might not want to end everything and I highly doubt souls would have to wait billions of years to enter Heaven. If there is a second coming it might not be for billions of years.

 

[Peter_J]

Please tell me Eastern Catholics do not believe this. I’ll change rites before I believe something like this. I’m starting to become more comfortable with the deLatinization of the Eastern Churches since they both really do say the same thing but use a different way of getting to the same conclusion. However, how do you reconcile this? I hope that deLatinization does not mean being forced to believe this.

What is the second coming does not happen for billions of years? I mean the earth is going to last another few billion years and by that time we will have the technology to colonize other planets. God might not want to end everything and I highly doubt souls would have to wait billions of years to enter Heaven. If there is a second coming it might not be for billions of years.

Whoa, stop to take a breath, friend.

 

[wjp984]

Alright, I took a breath, now can you answer my question? Is this a majority or minority point of view? Is this a common opinion among Eastern Catholics? I personally think there is just a misunderstanding since while we get to go to Heaven or Hell or a Final Theotokos or Purgatory on the way to Heaven, we are not unified with our glorified bodies until the second coming even if that is not for billions of years. However we will be in one of those three places/states after our death.

 

[SoulRebel777]

This belief is from the seperated orthodox church that isnt part of the Catholic church. Ive been talking to an Orthodox priest and that is what hes been telling me. He says there is no heaven or hell and that it wont be created until the second coming. Hes sending me some booklet about it in the mail. Also I just sent him a question saying if theres no heaven then why does it say in the Lord’s prayer on heaven and earth? And that St paul went into heaven? That christ went into hell and into heaven after his death and ressurection etc etc.

Its a very strange teaching, it doesnt seem fitting for the orthodox it almost sounds like a Jehovah witness belief .

God bless

 

[St_Aloysius]

I was under the impression that Orthodox see no distinction between “heaven” and “hell” as external places, but only in terms of internal experiences–that is to say, both entail being thrust into the presence of God, in which the blessed will joyfully receive this love and the condemned be tormented and assailed by their rejection of it.

This paragraph from Wikipedia seems to uphold this notion I had stuck in my head, and may help serve to answer many other questions raised on this topic:

*The Greek tradition has hell in the sense of an underworld where the dead await resurrection, but the damned are thrown into the fire on Judgment Day, not at death. The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that both the elect and the lost enter into the presence of God after death, and that the elect experience this presence as light and rest, while the lost experience it as darkness and torment. The Orthodox see this doctrine as supported by Scripture and by the patristic tradition.

The afterlife for the damned is dreadful anticipation of Judgment Day, while the elect happily await the resurrection of the dead. The Eastern Orthodox pray for the dead, and they believe that sometimes a lost soul can be saved after death through the prayers of the living.* (from “Hell in Christian Belief”)

 

[SoulRebel777]

Thomas Merton was part buddhist wasnt he?

 

[St_Aloysius]

Thomas Merton was part buddhist wasnt he?

He not “part”-anything; he was all-truth.

As far as I know, Merton became increasingly interested in Buddhism as his spiritual journey progressed, and even wrote a book summarizing what he had learned after extensive study. Yet this was not at the expense of, but to the benefit of, his Catholic faith.

I try to maintain a balanced literary diet of orthodoxy and heterodoxy (the exclusion of the latter as an esssential part of spiritual well-being is one of those darn myths the FDA tries to promote to its own embarassment), but I have to say: Merton is as genuinely, profoundly Catholic as they come. The fact that he was able to learn from other religious traditions only makes him more admirable in my mind.

He loved the God he experienced in the Sacraments, the Church he had found as True, and understood that being a saint consisted in being nothing more than one’s true Self.

Sounds purty Catholic to me.

P.S. If you only knew the context of the quote! It would eradicate all doubts that he was precisely that.