What is the Catholic response to the Orthodox view of Heaven and Hell?

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I just remember about ten years ago I bought this book that merton wrote and it really confused me. I actually burned the book. I thought i was going to be reading a Christian Book and i was reading pure buddhism. I do have one of his books still called thoughts in solitude which i enjoy.

Ive never heard of any Holy people dying in such a strange way as well . I dont know if thats fair to judge a person in how they died but , it just seems like a weird way to go out . I heard someone tell me one time that Saints dont die in freak accidents.

And when he died wasnt he in east asia with some buddhists?
 
SoulRebel777 said:
I just remember about ten years ago I bought this book that merton wrote and it really confused me. I actually burned the book. I thought i was going to be reading a Christian Book and i was reading pure buddhism. I do have one of his books still called thoughts in solitude which i enjoy.

Ive never heard of any Holy people dying in such a strange way as well . I dont know if thats fair to judge a person in how they died but , it just seems like a weird way to go out . I heard someone tell me one time that Saints dont die in freak accidents.

And when he died wasnt he in east asia with some buddhists?
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Honestly that REALLY begs some questions and merits some discussions appropriate to other forums. I may share in some of your misgivings about his last earthly circumstances, but that is not really in any fashion germaine to this topic, or this sub-forum.
 
Peter_J said:
I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that this entire thread ought to be moved to a different forum, such as “Non-Catholic Religions”.
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Since many threads can fit under a variety of forums (e.g., a thread about priests could legitimately be placed in Church News, Moral Theology, Apologetics, Non-Catholic Religions, Eastern Catholicism, Spirituality, or Liturgy & Sacraments, depending on the context), if a thread could legitimately be placed within a particular forum, it will remain in its original forum. If it obviously belongs somewhere else (e.g., a priest thread is specifically about a current news issue), then it may be moved to a more appropriate forum.

This thread asks for a Catholic response to an Orthodox claim so it would not appropriately belong in Non-Catholic Religions. Non-Catholic religions would be appropriate for threads asking for an Orthodox response. Since it does fit under the topics of discussion in the Eastern Catholicism forum, it will remain here with the understanding that it will receive an Eastern Catholic response. A Roman Catholic response would be received in Apologetics.

The way to bring concerns to my attention over the appropriateness of a thread for the Eastern Catholicism forum is through a PM or a post report. The moderators very much appreciate these reports from participants because they make our job easier and contribute to a pleasant and charitable atmosphere in the Catholic Answers Forums.

If anyone has any further questions, comments or concerns, please feel free to write to me privately.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator
 
So for the Orthodox Our Lord and Our Blessed Lady are not yet in heaven…even though the Scriptures, Creed, and Tradition clearly say they are? I’m very, very confused. The Latin Church certainly agrees that the fulness of eternal bliss or eternal damnation are not experienced until the resurrection on the Last Day…with the exception of Our Lord and Our Lady.
 
Nicholas82 said:
It is said that after death the soul experiences either a foretaste of heaven or hell, according to how one lived one’s life.

As St. John the Wonderworker said in a homily on life after death:

“Some souls find themselves(after death) in a condition of foretasting eternal joy and blessedness, and others in fear of the eternal torments which will come in full after the Last Judgment. Until then changes are possible in the condition of souls, especially through offering for them the Bloodless Sacrifice (commemoration at the Liturgy), and likewise by other prayers.”

Thus the Orthodox would say it is possible to actually pray a soul from hell. In the Church prayers are ever offered for the repose of the dead, and on the day of the Descent of the Holy Spirit, in the kneeling prayers at vespers, there is even a special petition “for those in hell.”

The teaching is that until the Final Judgement a soul neither experiences the full experience of blessedness(heaven) nor the full experience of torment(hell). At the Resurrection our bodies will be reunited with our souls and we will fully experience either Heaven or Hell. The condition of those enjoying a foretaste of eternal joy can only become progressively better, they hear our prayers and pray for us, they are Saints; those experiencing a foretaste of hell are helped by our prayers, almsgiving, etc.

We do not believe in a third place called “Purgatory”. Even the West’s favorite St Augustine refers somewhere in his writings(God help me, I will probably never find the quote, I’ll try) to basically this same concept.

Man, I’ve tried to explain this to the best of my ability but I still feel like I haven’t done that great a job. If anyone can help with further explaination or reading suggestions please do! 🙂
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When you anlalyze this closely, it’s not that far from what Catholics believe. Like the Orthodox, Catholics believe that no one experiences the fullness of salvation or damnation until after the second coming when souls are reunited with their bodies. Before that point, all suffering or joy is merely spiritual. After that point, it will be physical as well as spiritual. The issue of whether a soul is physically “in Heaven” or “in Hell” before the second coming is pretty irrelevant since we don’t necessarily think of Heaven and Hell as physical places, but rather states of being (although that doesn’t mean that there is not also a corresponding place for souls in each state to which they we will be admitted after the final judgement). Catholicism therefore teaches that we are in a state of damnation or salvation immediately after death, but is silent on whether or not we are also in specific places.

When you talk about a “third place called Purgatory”, the same rule applies. It is not necessarily a place, but rather a state. This means that it is perfectly possible that the damned and those undergoing purgation would be with each other in the same “place”. The only difference between Catholic and Orthodox theology on this point is that in Catholic theology, the souls of the purged know that they will one day be released, whereas in Orthodoxy this is not necessarily the case (although the Confessions of Dositheus during the Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem in 1672 do mention that as a possibility).

For the above reasons, it is permissible for a Catholic to hold this view of the afterlife. As you mentioned, St. Augustine himself supported this view in one of his writings, and was not censured for it. I cannot remember where he said it either. Perhaps Ghosty knows.
 
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When you talk about a “third place called Purgatory”, the same rule applies. It is not necessarily a place, but rather a state. This means that it is perfectly possible that the damned and those undergoing purgation would be with each other in the same “place”.**

Would it not be better to think of Purgatory not as a “mild case of hell,” but rather the ante-room (or preparation room) for heaven?
 
bpbasilphx said:
**
When you talk about a “third place called Purgatory”, the same rule applies. It is not necessarily a place, but rather a state. This means that it is perfectly possible that the damned and those undergoing purgation would be with each other in the same “place”.**

Would it not be better to think of Purgatory not as a “mild case of hell,” but rather the ante-room (or preparation room) for heaven?
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I totally agree. The point here was to emphasize how purgatory, and the Catholic view of the afterlife in general, can be compatible with the Orthodox view. Since the doctrine of purgatory is so vaguely defined, it’s perfectly acceptable to think of it either as more of a preparation room for heaven, or a “mild case of hell”. I opted for the latter here since it seemed more appropriate and I thought that it made the connection between the two views more apparent.
 
twf said:
So for the Orthodox Our Lord and Our Blessed Lady are not yet in heaven…even though the Scriptures, Creed, and Tradition clearly say they are? I’m very, very confused. The Latin Church certainly agrees that the fulness of eternal bliss or eternal damnation are not experienced until the resurrection on the Last Day…with the exception of Our Lord and Our Lady.
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Twf,

I started a thread called What is the Orthodox response to the Catholic view of Heaven and Hell? in the “Non-Catholic Religions” forum. So far there’s only one response, but it’s a good one.

God bless,
Peter.
 
SoulRebel777 said:
Through email Ive been talking to an Orthodox Priest . Hes been telling me that the Orthodox teach there is no heaven or hell YET. He said this was brought up in the Council of Florence.
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I don’t think so. What particular Orthodox community does he claim to be from (like West Syriac, Eastern Syriac, Malankar, Russian, Alexandrian, Greek, etc)?
 
SoulRebel777 said:
Through email Ive been talking to an Orthodox Priest . Hes been telling me that the Orthodox teach…
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As remiss as some are to admit it, there is wide latitude on a good number of things, and opportunities to be genuinely agnostic on certain matters in Orthodoxy and the other various Eastern Churches. Alternately pious readings of certain elders and starets can lend themselves to theological speculations which are all well and good but not dogmatic.

On some of these matters, there simply are no defined and definative teachings or understandings.
 
SoulRebel777 said:
Through email Ive been talking to an Orthodox Priest . Hes been telling me that the Orthodox teach there is no heaven or hell YET. He said this was brought up in the Council of Florence.

I never knew they believed this , what does our Catholic faith say in response to this?

God bless
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SoulRebel777,

To get a proper response to your question, you really needed to start of with a slightly more detailed explanation. I notice that you bring up a few points later, but please provide a somewhat systematic account of the position. It need not be scholastic 😉 , but it should involve some defining of terms, etc. Otherwise you may get some rather lopsided responses.

If you want to develop some new talking points from the responses here, further explication would be wonderful. Perhaps when you receive the literature he is sending, you can post some relevant points. 😃

Also, Eastern Catholic perspectives will be different from the Roman (ie Western) perspective, are you interested in knowing this response too. You have posted in the Eastern Forum, but seem to ask for more in you final question.

Thank you and God Bless,
Rosemary
 
I think there’s a misunderstanding here. The Orthodox, from what I understand, and I explored a little bit into Orthodoxy before converting from Protestant to Catholic, but don’t claim to be an expert by any means. The Orthodox believe that Heaven and Hell exist, but that nobody is there yet. The devil may be in Hell already, and God and His angels are certainly in Heaven, but all the dead (with the possible exception of Enoch, Elijah and the Blessed Virgin Mary) are in Hades, which is a concept taken from both the Old Testament and from Greek mythology.

Hades is the realm of the dead, and until the resurrection, all the dead are just waiting there. Since the resurrection, Christ, who ‘descended to the dead’, has been there to comfort those who are awaiting their eternal reward with Him. This is how the Orthodox understand the teaching about the rich man and Lazarus, who was in ‘the bosom of Abraham’ in Hades, while the rich man was tormented in the same place.

It’s not entirely unlike Catholic teaching, which says that while there is a reward for the souls of the faithful departed in heaven now, the fullness of their reward (and the fullness of the punishment of the damned) won’t be realised until we are re-united with our bodies at the resurrection.

The main questions, as I understand it, are:
  1. Whether the faithful departed already experience the beatific vision pre-resurrection? This is debatable in Orthodox thought, but defined in doctrine in Catholic thought that they do.
  2. Whether hell is a place of exile from the presence of God? Again, Catholic doctrine says it is, but the Orthodox seem to be in two minds, some would say that the same inescapable presence of God which is the reward for the righteous is a place of burning fire for the damned, again refering to the rich man and Lazarus for their evidence.
 
SoulRebel777 said:
This belief is from the seperated orthodox church that isnt part of the Catholic church. Ive been talking to an Orthodox priest and that is what hes been telling me. He says there is no heaven or hell and that it wont be created until the second coming. Hes sending me some booklet about it in the mail. Also I just sent him a question saying if theres no heaven then why does it say in the Lord’s prayer on heaven and earth? And that St paul went into heaven? That christ went into hell and into heaven after his death and ressurection etc etc.

Its a very strange teaching, it doesnt seem fitting for the orthodox it almost sounds like a Jehovah witness belief .

God bless
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Orthodoxoy draws a distinction between “Hades” and “Hell”. They are similar but they are not quite the same thing, but they are often confused. Hades is the waiting place where people await the final judgement who are unbelievers. Like that one NT scripture mentions the fallen angels that are being held “in gloomy dungeons”. Not to mention the the end of the book of Revelation. Satan and his angels are held in the Abyss but they are not sent to Hell aka “The Lake of Fire” until after they are released and rebel again against God and thrown into the lake of Fire with all that rebeled with them.

I’m not sure why Catholics would have a problem with this, if you guys believe in things like Purgatory or Limbo…
 
Here’s what the Orthodox think of heaven and hell: aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

The author dose a terrible job at explaining the Catholic and Protestant views on heaven and hell. In fact, he misquotes the Catechism and uses “blanket theology”, i.e., he mashes the theology of Catholic and of all the different Protestant denominations into a single theology, as if Catholics and Protestants believe the same exact things about heaven and hell. (No offense meant to Protestants).
 
SoulRebel777 said:
Through email Ive been talking to an Orthodox Priest . Hes been telling me that the Orthodox teach there is no heaven or hell YET. He said this was brought up in the Council of Florence.

I never knew they believed this , what does our Catholic faith say in response to this?

God bless
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The same as the Orthodox. Heaven and Hell are not physical places.

Heaven as the fullness of communion with God was the theme of the Holy Father’s catechesis at the General Audience of 21 July 1999. Heaven “is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit,” the Pope said. – L’Osservatore Romano, 28 July 1999, 7

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his
catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret
correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that “hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself… Rather than a
place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively
separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy”. –
L’Osservatore Romano, 4 August 1999, 7
 
As someone else noted, I’ve never read of a Catholic teaching that states that there are people in hell. I suppose it can be inferred, but it is not explicit (can someone show me otherwise?). What is rather more explicit to me is the daily prayers for the dead, which hopes that all who have died will know the mercy of God. In the Latin Masses I have attended, this prayer is pretty explicit.

This is certainly not an issue that should be a cause for the separation. Those who believe it is are simply being factious.

Blessings
 
I just received what the orhtodox sent to me about heaven and hell in the mail.

Havent read it yet when i do ill llet you all know what it says
 
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