What is the Catholic teaching on 1 Cor. 1:8?

[PSUCath]

How would a Catholic respond to the claim that 1 Corinthians 1:8 supports Calvinist “perseverance of the saints?”

“He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (ESV)

The Calvinist claims that because God “will keep you firm to the end,” any ability for personal apostasy based on free will is precluded. God makes sure that you don’t fall away from him, and claiming that a person can reject God after becoming “truly saved” would place human will superior to God’s will.

 

[Justin_Mary]

The Catholic approach is not to take one verse of scripture & build a whole theology around it.

We understand that every time “you” is mentioned that doesn’t necessarily mean “you”

Yes, it might mean “you” depending on your situation, but you are most probably not in the situation of the person St Paul was talking to.

In this case Paul is talking to an established church well rooted in Apostolic teaching. To that church grounded solidly in the Gospel preached by Paul, sharers of the one bread of life & cup of salvation… that “you” will be kept “firm to the end” as Paul was if they hold true to the Gospel Paul preached.

 

[PSUCath]

In this case Paul is talking to an established church well rooted in Apostolic teaching. To that church grounded solidly in the Gospel preached by Paul, sharers of the one bread of life & cup of salvation… that “you” will be kept “firm to the end” as Paul was if they hold true to the Gospel Paul preached

As a Catholic, I can understand what you’re saying and agree with it. But this explanation will not suffice to a Protestant who rejects apostolic succession. Any Protestant worth his salt will immediately claim that this is a presupposition fallacy in which we are assuming that the teachings of Catholic Church represents the Gospel preached by Paul to the Corinthian Church. Allow me to play devil’s advocate: the Calvinist will claim that they are just as grounded in Scripture as the Corinthian Church that St. Paul wrote to. Therefore, they are in fact represented in “you” as St. Paul writes. How might a Catholic respond to this?

 

[otjm]

The Calvinists did not start with that text and build their theology upon it.

They started with a desire to break away from the authority of the Church, and went looking for means to make that break.

What they did there is what is called “proof texting”, that is, taking something completely out of context and attempting to build a theological position on it.

Since I don’t tilt with Calvinists, I will offer a scenario; we know from the Gospels that two of the Apostles directly turned away from Christ. Judas betrayed him, in a possible attempt to undo his act he tried to get the Jewish authorities to take back the money they ahd given him to do so, and after they refuse, he hanged himself.

Peter was sitting in the courtyard when Christ was being tried, and three times denied that he even knew Christ.

For the Scenario: if Peter had keeled over immediately after his last denial, and before he walked out of the courtyard, would he have been saved?

And if not, then the theology of the Calvinists falls apart at the seams.

Further, the issue of apostasy had been dealt with centuries before Calvin came along. I cannot say that he knew of how the Church dealt with apostasy, in either case,the matter was settled. However, the Calvinist theological construct denies centuries of a solid theology of forgiveness of sin and reconciliation - which they wanted nothing to do with.

And finally, the Calvinist position taken to its extreme effectively denies free will, making us all subject to a God of whimsy - who created us for what purpose? If I am already saved, then I need do nothing; and if I am already damned, there is nothing I can or could do.

 

[fhansen]

How would a Catholic respond to the claim that 1 Corinthians 1:8 supports Calvinist “perseverance of the saints?”

”And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. But he who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.” Matt 24:11-14

For every hyperbolic assurance and encouragement in Scripture about salvation there are probably ten warnings or admonitions about the need to strive, to persevere, to be holy, to be vigilant, to invest one’s talents, to remain in Christ, to refrain from sin, to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh, to not be a branch grafted in and later cut back off, to wash ones robes, to purify oneself, to do good, etc, etc, with loss of eternal life at stake. It’s God, plus our cooperation with Him. To the extent that we remain in communion with God, we in Him and He in us, we will be saved. The human will is the prize in Gods eyes, something to be aided with grace but never something to be overridden. This is Gods sovereign determination for man, that man be “left in the hands of his own counsel”.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Any Protestant worth his salt will immediately claim that this is a presupposition fallacy in which we are assuming that the teachings of Catholic Church represents the Gospel preached by Paul to the Corinthian Church. Allow me to play devil’s advocate: the Calvinist will claim that they are just as grounded in Scripture as the Corinthian Church that St. Paul wrote to. Therefore, they are in fact represented in “you” as St. Paul writes. How might a Catholic respond to this?

I would refute the argument of fallacy with the Church Fathers, the Didiche, ancient liturgies, hymns & canticles to demonstrate the similarity between modern Catholic understanding of discipleship & ancient understanding.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I would refute the argument of fallacy with the Church Fathers, the Didiche, ancient liturgies, hymns & canticles to demonstrate the similarity between modern Catholic understanding of discipleship & ancient understanding.

Unfortunately, Calvinists are unlikely to accept any of those sources. You have to counter a Scripture verse issue with another Scripture verse.

OP, how about this tract by Tim Staples? It hsa some useful stuff in it re this issue.

Predestined for Freedom | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[fhansen]

This is not saying our salvation is somehow dependent on our personal ability to remain saved. If we can lose our salvation, wouldn’t we all?

Well, no. The real point is that grace can be resisted. It would be the height of redundancy to say that those who God causes to endure to the end will be saved-what would be the point? It’s those who choose to remain in Christ to the end who will be saved. And the list of verse is long that places the burden on the believer to become increasingly involved in ‘making his calling and election sure’.

Yes, the elect are the elect-and God, alone knows with absolute, 100% certainty who they are-whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. And Scripture tells us that not all who think they’re saved, will be saved. We can have a high level of assurance, knowing God’s desire to save all and His trustworthiness coupled with observance of fruit in our lives, but not perfect certainty. Humility, alone, in light of human limitations, weaknesses, and sin, should come into play here.

 

[yankeesouth]

But this explanation will not suffice to a Protestant who rejects apostolic succession

Then that is where you start. It all comes down to the Authority given to the Catholic Church by Christ. So you might as well start there because that is where it will end.

 

[fhansen]

We do have human limitations, weaknesses, and sin for the rest of our lives. So how will you get to Heaven?

And yet Scripture is clear that sinners do not enter heaven-so, yes, being born again is not a license to sin. None of this is too big of a job for God in any case, because with Him all things are possible. Why would a sinner enter heaven, why would the impure of heart be able to see God IOW? Would they even want to see Him yet, attracted as they still are to lesser, created things above Him, first above all else? To the extent that we sin we’re still in opposition to God and His will, we still prefer ourselves to God as the catechism teaches that Adam did with his first sin. To the extent that we sin we don’t yet love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, to put it another way.

There’s a plan under-girding all of this-God’s plan of salvation-and it necessarily, from Eden on, involves the human will, as love necessarily involves the human will. And that’s why God allowed man to Fall, and experience-or know-the evil which is intrinsic to being in opposition to His will, in opposition to love-the evil that we experience daily now along with the good inherent in creation. And that reason is to give us motive to reject and shun evil and run to the good, to the ultimate Good who is God when He reaches out and reveals Himself to us. Here, in this relatively godless world, we might develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness and justice, we may come to see our need for God, and hate the pride that sets itself up against Him and is the root of all sin or moral evil in this world.

Only if the will is involved, and continuously involved throughout whatever time we’re given in our walk with Him, being challenged and tested as we work out our salvation together we He who patiently works in us can the centuries of pain and suffering that humans have experienced here be understood-and be justifiable. Otherwise God may as well have simply stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the reprobate to begin with-or simply prevented Adam from sinning at the beginning-if salvation is nothing more than a matter of His determining the whole show for us. But instead He’s producing something here, something great, something better than He began with as He brings His beloved creation into a perfection that only He holds in mind in the full sense. And to the extent that we participate in this perfecting, by choosing rightly, and increasingly so, we grow in justice or righteousness and towards the being that He created us to be even if this is not fully culminated until heaven when we finally meet Him “face to face”.

continued:

 

[fhansen]

continued:

Meanwhile, any final touches of purification, of turning the will fully towards Him that may be needed in order for that meeting to take place, in order for that meeting to even make sense, can be accomplished in the merciful place or state known by Catholics as purgatory. God will have His way, but we must play our part, in washing our robes- Rev 22:14. The following are some relevant teachings of the Church:

MAN’S FREEDOM

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.

I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil , and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

None of this denies the absolute and essential need for grace-that’s another part of the teachings, but rather is meant to define and emphasize man’s role at this point.

 

[fhansen]

This never stops, it’s a constant struggle. So how do you do your part?

By cooperating with He who works in us. We don’t have to accept His grace to begin with, or we can turn from it later at any point along the way. We can lose our state of justice, by acting very unjustly, by living by the flesh rather than the Spirit, by turning back away from God with sin that constitutes “sin that leads to death” (John 5:16), which is defined by the Church as sin so grave that it opposes and destroys love of God and neighbor in us. Sin that kills us all over again. As the Church rightly teaches, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love”.

Lesser sins, and sins repented of, constitute a struggle, within which we’re to “resist manfully”, while we may yet fail at times. But, as I said, God will finally have His way-or we can finally oppose that way-and gain hell as the result.

"Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 6

It’s how we sow, how we’ve grown overall in love and away from the sin that love excludes by its nature. Then God will deal with us, with the finishing touches if need be, prior to heaven.

.

 

[fhansen]

He’s certainly able-and its good to know His desire-but we can still resist! And way too many other verse must be ignored to think otherwise.

 

[fhansen]

We’re given all the grace we need to be saved.

 

[Dorothy]

We are to pray much, and receive worthily the sacraments that Our Lord Jesus Christ gave us. When we fall short we can run to Him with confidence.

 

[fhansen]

I do. But He still grants us the power, the freedom, to resist His power. the human will is the “prize” so to speak

 

[fhansen]

and I didn’t say that it did. it just says that he’s able. we must know the power of Christ in our life, we must know that through him, and only through Him, we have the power to overcome. “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5). but we don’t have to take advantage of that fact-which is why He gives us that knowledge to begin with. Or we can “taste of the heavenly gift” (Heb 6:4) and later reject it.

 

[fhansen]

You said “Meanwhile, any final touches of purification, of turning the will fully towards Him that may be needed in order for that meeting to take place, in order for that meeting to even make sense, can be accomplished in the merciful place or state known by Catholics as purgatory”.

Isaiah 53:5 “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.”

Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering.

To say that we must also suffer for our sins, isn’t that saying that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient?

Well, there’s one caveat to being a candidate for this healing that we’d agree to, which is that we must at least believe. Otherwise His suffering is apparently insufficient. To that though Catholics would add other necessities, such as obeying the commandments (Matt 19:17) to name one, and forgiving others (Matt 6:14) to name another.

Jesus’ suffering won us forgiveness and reconciliation with God, at least for those who then follow His will beginning with faith. He then also washes, cleanses, and makes us makes us new creations. From there we’re expected to use the gifts we’re given; we’re to walk like new creations, overcoming and moving onward and upward in the overall sense, if one step backward then two steps forward after that at the end of the day. Otherwise His power hasn’t really done much.

 

[fhansen]

Regeneration is a process, that begins with and follows faith, a gift itself. Those who’ve tasted of the gift are/were believers.

 

[fhansen]

Purgatory may well be part of our walk, due to the fact that the cleansing and doing His will may not be complete-or we may become a bit dirtied again along the way or still in some need of persuading/purifying at the end in any case-as long as we haven’t turned fully and definitively away from Him and remained there. Remember that no sinners enter heaven. God wants us pure of heart, truly pure-for our sake.