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rinnie
Guest
Well Happy Shabbat to you my friend. Hope you have a great spiritual evening. God Bless!
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meltzerboy
New member
I can pick up on this question. The interpretation for Jews of Man is made in the image of G-d is that the internal characteristics of Man, such as compassion, kindness, mercy, and goodness are the image of G-d’s characteristics, rather than the external physical presence. For Jews, G-d as a corporeal entity is too reminiscent of idol worship and graven images. However, I for one, do understand the concept of the Trinity in terms of three persons or faces of one G-d.
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Nazaret
Guest
I’m Jewish my self, coming from a secular family with religion roots in our past while our family was scattered all around Europe before the holocaust…I can understand the spirituality passion for learning and comparing Christianity with Judaism - I feel huge interest in Christianity (as a Jew). In my opinion the main issue is with accepting or not accepting the fact that Jesus is son of god or god him self…so divine.
I think you should never stop searching until you feel inside, you found peace and tranquility with your faith. God is inside of us.
I think you should never stop searching until you feel inside, you found peace and tranquility with your faith. God is inside of us.
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rinnie
Guest
Thank-you meltzerboy. But we also reject Idol worship and Graven Images as Roman Catholic’s. It is forbidden for us to do so.
We believe that The Blessed Mother did indeed come into this world as a Women, and we believe that Christ indeed came into this world as both Human and Divine.
So I do not see where we are worshiping graven images or have idol worship.Our God is your God.
When we pray in front of the Cross we know that Jesus is not the Statue, we know that Christ is above.
Just like when we have a picture of our kids in our pockets it is a reminder of those we love.
When we are in Church and have statues of Christ, his Mother Apostles it is just a reminder of those who have walked the world before us and have been examples of what we need to become.
Surely in your faith pictures are not forbidden. So they should not be forbidden to us. When you look at a picture of your Family do you think the picture is your actual family? Of course you do not. Then do you see my point.
A picture of Christ is not a false God. It is a rememberance of the Man who walked this earth. Christ revealed himself as a Man. A picture of Christ or a statue of Christ cannot be a FALSE image only if you deny him as Christ. Just like if I show you a picture of myself and it is indeed me, you cannot say it is a false image of me. It is how I was revealed in this world.
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rinnie
Guest
My Father’s family came from Poland. So as you can see they were persecuted as well. There is no good reason for hurting another in this world no matter what. Especially for their faith.
We have one large thing in Common. We both have the same God. There is no reason in the world that we cannot come together someday and become One Family in One God in One Church.
And you are correct it is the acceptance of Christ. And believe me I can understand what you are saying. But it is the knowledge of your faith and the knowledge of mine that brought together that can explain so much that Christ has given and taught us. I pray for the day that it happens. And I know in my heart that it will. Because when that time comes no one can touch us.
I cannot understand the hatred and ignorance that people have for both of us. Because anyone that has God in them still are one family rather they see it or not.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Juan,
Are you of Spanish descent???
I have a Jewish client, humanist Jew – believe in no God but humanitarian. Her cousin was a Jew who moved to Spain, fleeing the Nazis. She outwardly became a Catholic while attending a boarding school. She received the Eucharist without formal belief, but admitted she experienced each time a most wonderful experience of God, without even trying. It would happen on reception of the Eucharist.
Our norms state you cannot receive the Eucharist without profession of faith, but the priest cannot withhold the Eucharist from a person coming up to receive.
Anyway, this lady went through a real ordeal of her own Jewish identity. She later heard of the Murranos…those Jews who lived in Spain, outwardly receiving, pretending they were Catholic, praying the rosary, but without faith in Christ. They kept their Jewish identity hidden for centuries. There are communities as such here in the South West USA…Arizona, New Mexico if I am not mistaken.
She wrote a book on the Murranos. She met a Catholic priest who was interiorly a Jew without faith in Christ. He was later removed from the priesthood. While a priest, he said Mass, ministered to the people, blessing them, administrating the sacraments – but without faith in Christ.
Anyway, there is a new association in the Catholic Church, based in St. Louis, MIssouri. They are the Hebrew Catholics. They want to restore Hebrew culture in the Church just as we have Polish, Irish, Italian, etc. Catholics.
The Hebrew Catholics now have a program to begin your own havurot/havurah…for Gentiles to come together to study their Jewish roots. It is hoped also to be a safe place for Jews who keep their Catholicism hidden.
I myself could not get over the fear the Murranos have in exposing their Jewish identity while outwardly Catholic. I read their stories and their great inner struggle holding on to their own Jewish identity.
There have been Spanish families who did not even tell their children they were Jewish…
Are you of Spanish descent???
I have a Jewish client, humanist Jew – believe in no God but humanitarian. Her cousin was a Jew who moved to Spain, fleeing the Nazis. She outwardly became a Catholic while attending a boarding school. She received the Eucharist without formal belief, but admitted she experienced each time a most wonderful experience of God, without even trying. It would happen on reception of the Eucharist.
Our norms state you cannot receive the Eucharist without profession of faith, but the priest cannot withhold the Eucharist from a person coming up to receive.
Anyway, this lady went through a real ordeal of her own Jewish identity. She later heard of the Murranos…those Jews who lived in Spain, outwardly receiving, pretending they were Catholic, praying the rosary, but without faith in Christ. They kept their Jewish identity hidden for centuries. There are communities as such here in the South West USA…Arizona, New Mexico if I am not mistaken.
She wrote a book on the Murranos. She met a Catholic priest who was interiorly a Jew without faith in Christ. He was later removed from the priesthood. While a priest, he said Mass, ministered to the people, blessing them, administrating the sacraments – but without faith in Christ.
Anyway, there is a new association in the Catholic Church, based in St. Louis, MIssouri. They are the Hebrew Catholics. They want to restore Hebrew culture in the Church just as we have Polish, Irish, Italian, etc. Catholics.
The Hebrew Catholics now have a program to begin your own havurot/havurah…for Gentiles to come together to study their Jewish roots. It is hoped also to be a safe place for Jews who keep their Catholicism hidden.
I myself could not get over the fear the Murranos have in exposing their Jewish identity while outwardly Catholic. I read their stories and their great inner struggle holding on to their own Jewish identity.
There have been Spanish families who did not even tell their children they were Jewish…
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Sorry, I was interrupted…but Juan, you should continue your search for faith and meaning. Talk to your family and study your family heritage.
Follow your interests and seek truth…you will some day put all the pieces together.
We are coming to an ingrafting of Jew and Catholic, of Judaism and Christianity. What the parameters are remains to be seen…as it is God’s doing.
Follow your interests and seek truth…you will some day put all the pieces together.
We are coming to an ingrafting of Jew and Catholic, of Judaism and Christianity. What the parameters are remains to be seen…as it is God’s doing.
meltzerboy
New member
Rinnie, you don’t have to convince me! As I said in the post, I understand the concept of the Trinity as well as the notion that Jesus is completely human AND completely divine. What I meant was that for Jews in general, even the slightestThank-you meltzerboy. But we also reject Idol worship and Graven Images as Roman Catholic’s. It is forbidden for us to do so.
We believe that The Blessed Mother did indeed come into this world as a Women, and we believe that Christ indeed came into this world as both Human and Divine.
So I do not see where we are worshiping graven images or have idol worship.Our God is your God.
When we pray in front of the Cross we know that Jesus is not the Statue, we know that Christ is above.
Just like when we have a picture of our kids in our pockets it is a reminder of those we love.
When we are in Church and have statues of Christ, his Mother Apostles it is just a reminder of those who have walked the world before us and have been examples of what we need to become.
Surely in your faith pictures are not forbidden. So they should not be forbidden to us. When you look at a picture of your Family do you think the picture is your actual family? Of course you do not. Then do you see my point.
A picture of Christ is not a false God. It is a rememberance of the Man who walked this earth. Christ revealed himself as a Man. A picture of Christ or a statue of Christ cannot be a FALSE image only if you deny him as Christ. Just like if I show you a picture of myself and it is indeed me, you cannot say it is a false image of me. It is how I was revealed in this world.
intimation that G-d has a physical presence and is not a separate (but not separated) spiritual entity from everything else in the Universe which He created (including Nature), brings to mind idol worship. I am NOT saying Catholicism involves idol worship, however. If one steps outside of Christianity for a moment though, I think the casual observer must admit this is quite a complex notion of G-d: that is, man and G-d together in the person of Jesus, plus Holy Spirit, G-d the Son conversing with G-d the Father, and one G-d. It exemplifies the mystery of Faith.
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rikkk1958
Guest
I may have to respond although I am not that well informed of Judaism. I always thought that Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people which comes from the root word “Judah” which means God’s people. Christians respect the Jews as being the chosen people of God whom God showed His Power and Glory from the beginning until the last Prophet of the Old Testament. The Old Testament symbolized God’s work to prove that He is the Creator of all things and tells us what the creation is all about and that the people must recognize Him as the Almighty God. The Hebrews who were His main subjects as well as the gentiles or Samaritans were instrumental in His quest to make known that He is the true God by way of forgiveness to the inequities His main subjects showed during the period. This the reason why violent stories are related in the Old Testament because God had to show His Power and Glory when His subjects refused to obey for so many years. I believed IMO that God will show mercy to all of His subjects in this period because He used them for His purpose of getting the people to know HIM.
The difference now between Christians and Jews is only on believing regarding the “Messiah” that is to come. The general Jewish people do not believe that the “Messiah” has come although there are also Jews who believes on Jesus as the Messiah but are not recognized by the general Jewish people as Jews or should should not call themselves Jews. Prophesies in the Old Testament proved that the Messiah will come and He did but the Jews refused to believe. This is where the bucks stopped. Jewish leaders are adamant to believe and their reasons was obvious, their faith will no longer exist if they do and their leadership will no longer needed. So many continued their tradition and ignore the coming of the Messiah. If we really follow the Bible, then we have to believe that Jesus Christ indeed came thus became the foundation of Christianity. Jewish leaders who refused to believed continue their quest for the “Messiah” that is still to come.
So it is your choice, to believe or not.
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Kaninchen
Guest
A lot of Christians think that but, in reality, they’re paradigmatically different religions.
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rinnie
Guest
If this is true then how does the O.T tie perfectly into the N.T. If they were different religions this could not even be possible. I have to disagree with this.
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mdrummer5
Guest
As was pointed out to me yesterday this is a matter of whether or not you take the NT to be factual information vs. very well put together stories.
Hi Kaninchen
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rinnie
Guest
Also to say this you would have to say that the CC does not accept the O.T. This is not true. We do accept the O.T as the true word of God. There is only one true word of God and there is only one O.T. You would have to prove that the O.T that we have is not the true word of God to prove this claim.
We believe in One God. God from God light from Light true God from True God. Begotten not make One in being with the Father. Through him all things were made.
I understand that you reject Christ as being God the Son. But it is not right to say that we reject the O.T. as being the word of God. Or that the O.T is not the true word of God.
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rinnie
Guest
If you used common sense here you would see that it could never be that well put together. No one is that smart. There is no way Jesus could come, do what he said, knew what he knew and not mess up one time if he was indeed not God.As was pointed out to me yesterday this is a matter of whether or not you take the NT to be factual information vs. very well put together stories.
Hi Kaninchen
Only God himself could even put together the story. Even if you deny Christ as the Son of God no human mind could ever teach or know what Jesus knew. There is no way.
Even Abraham, Moses, etc could ever compare to the wisdom of God. And Abraham never said he was God nor Moses. And if Jesus was not the Christ how could he be perfect in everyway. There is not one sin that he could have even been called on. He was perfect in every single way. No story could even do that from any human mind.
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mdrummer5
Guest
You’re implying that all Jews fail to use common sense with regards to the NT. Have you ever considered the fact that there is no definitive proof that it is factual? That’s why it’s called faith, not fact. That’s why there are different religions.
You don’t hear people arguing over whether or not 2 + 2 = 4 because it can be proven. No faith in the world however can be proven as fact. Supporting arguments can be provided but none have been proven.
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rinnie
Guest
Never meant to imply any such thing.
I would say that Jesus is the definitive proof that it is factual. I would say that the Apostles testifying to this truth is factual. God made sure that from the beginning of time that the truth would be given to us.
It started with the word and then the word became flesh. It is more then just mere faith. It is all by the Grace given to us by God. Without the grace of God there would be no faith. Faith is a gift given to us by God through his Grace.
There is only ONE GOD and ONE TRUTH. not many. And it is by praying for Grace that truth is revealed to us. The more we pray the more Grace we receive.
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mdrummer5
Guest
Rather than pointing out the flaw in your line of thinking just answer me this, if it’s factual why isn’t everyone Christian?
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Kaninchen
Guest
Never said you rejected the OT, it’s that you use it differently - you see it through the lens of the NT.
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rinnie
Guest
Free Will. We all have it to accept Christ or reject him.
Same reason some people believe in God and some who don’t.Rather its a fact or not does not mean People have to accept it. God again gave us the free will to choose for ourself. He knows who are his and who are not.
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rinnie
Guest
No we don’t. We see it in the teachings of the Apostles and the Church. Granted we can tie the O.T into the N.T but not without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
But we don’t need either we have the Church. It is through the Church that all is revealed to us. The Holy Spirit is what leads us to the Truth.
While we indeed read scripture Old and New it is not how we have the truth revealed to us.It is through the Church.
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