T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
I never said they believe in the same definition of what we think the son of God is
- Status
P
PRmerger
Guest
Out of this discussion.
Nothing more needs to be said.
No one gets to re-define what it means…to be black, to be Christian, to have nothing…
Case closed.
Nothing more needs to be said.
No one gets to re-define what it means…to be black, to be Christian, to have nothing…
Case closed.
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
Yea we believe The Church us jesus bride, they don’t. They redefined
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
You’ve closed nothingOut of this discussion.
Nothing more needs to be said.
No one gets to re-define what it means…to be black, to be Christian, to have nothing…
Case closed.
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
Yea and Protestants didn’t get to redefine it during reformation, be consistentOut of this discussion.
Nothing more needs to be said.
No one gets to re-define what it means…to be black, to be Christian, to have nothing…
Case closed.
O
otjm
Guest
They believe that Jesus Christ was a spirit child before he was given flesh. They do not define Jesus Christ as God incarnate; nor do they accept that there is onlyl one God, in three persons, and that the second person of the Trinity - God the Son - became man in a hypostatic union. They have absolutely different definitions of God; they do not believe that there is only one God.
The fact that they use the same words as Christians do does not mean they accept the same definition of those words; they have their own definition.
The Catholic Church holds that they do not have a a valid baptism, as they do not believe there is only one God, who is one infinite God in three persons.
Jesus they call the son of God, and their definition of the Holy Spirit is vague at best; but the Holy Spirit is a separate entity from both God the Father (who is God of this planet; not an infinite God, but a man perfected).
In short, they flat out reject the Nicene Creed.
M
Michael85
Guest
Just because someone claims that they are something, that doesn’t make them that thing. If I was to say that I am the President of the United States, does that make me the President? Of course not.
Mormons use the same terms as Catholics and other Christians, but they mean different things. The Mormon Trinity is made up of three separate gods. The Mormon Jesus was supposedly begotten by physical sex between God the Father and the Blessed Virgin Mary (because the Mormon god has a body of flesh and bones). Jesus in Mormonism is the spiritual brother of Lucifer.
TheTrinitySaves, do you consider Muslims to be Christian? They believe in Jesus.
Mormons use the same terms as Catholics and other Christians, but they mean different things. The Mormon Trinity is made up of three separate gods. The Mormon Jesus was supposedly begotten by physical sex between God the Father and the Blessed Virgin Mary (because the Mormon god has a body of flesh and bones). Jesus in Mormonism is the spiritual brother of Lucifer.
TheTrinitySaves, do you consider Muslims to be Christian? They believe in Jesus.
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
No, they dont believe that Jesus is the son of God. And no mormon would describe their beliefs as you did
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
well let’s see how Mormons would define their belief in Jesus Christ. In their own words. From an article in the Harold B Lee Library at Brigham Young University, written by Robert L. Millet:
Jesus Christ: Overview
Author: MILLET, ROBERT L.
Jesus Christ is the central figure in the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that “the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (TPJS, p. 121). Latter-day Saints believe that complete salvation is possible only through the life, death, resurrection, doctrines, and ordinances of Jesus Christ and in no other way.
Christ’s relationship to mankind is defined in terms of his divine roles in the three phases of existence-premortal, mortal, and postmortal.
PREMORTAL JESUS. In the premortal life, Jesus Christ, whose main title was Jehovah, was the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and thus the eldest brother and preeminent above all other spirit children of God. In that first estate, he came to be more intelligent than all other spirits, one “like unto God” (Abr. 3:19, 24), and served as the representative of the Father in the creation of “worlds without number” (Heb. 1:1-3; D&C 76:24; Moses 1:33;7:30). LDS leaders have declared that all revelation since the Fall of Adam has been by, and through, Jehovah (Jesus Christ) and that whenever the Father has appeared unto man, it has been to introduce and bear record of the Son (JST John 1:19; DS 1:27). He was known to Adam, and the Patriarchs from Adam to Noah worshiped him in humble reverence. He was the Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God-Lawgiver on Sinai, the Holy One of Israel. Scriptural records affirm that all the prophets from the beginning spoke or wrote of the time when Jehovah would come to earth in the form of man, in the role of a messiah. Peter said, “to him give all the prophets witness” (Acts 2:25-31;10:43). Jacob taught that “none of the prophets have written, nor prophesied, save they have spoken concerning this Christ” (Jacob 7:11; cf. Mosiah 3:5-10;13:33; 3 Ne. 20:24).
MORTAL JESUS. Jehovah was born into this life in Bethlehem of Judea and grew up as Jesus of Nazareth. He came in condescension-leaving his station as the Lord Omnipotent to undertake a mission of pain and humiliation, having everlasting consequences for mankind (see 1 Ne. 11; Mosiah 3:5-10; see also Condescension of God). His life was one of moral perfection-he was sinless and completely submissive to the will of the Father (John 5:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15; 1 Pet. 2:22; Mosiah 15:2). Jesus is the model and exemplar of all who seek to acquire the divine nature. As taught by Joseph Smith, the Savior “suffered greater sufferings, and was exposed to more powerful contradictions than any man can be.” Through all of this, “he kept the law of God, and remained without sin” (Lectures on Faith, Lecture 5, paragraph 2). The risen Lord asked the Nephites, “What manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am” (3 Ne. 27:27; cf. 12:48).
Jesus Christ: Overview
Author: MILLET, ROBERT L.
Jesus Christ is the central figure in the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that “the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (TPJS, p. 121). Latter-day Saints believe that complete salvation is possible only through the life, death, resurrection, doctrines, and ordinances of Jesus Christ and in no other way.
Christ’s relationship to mankind is defined in terms of his divine roles in the three phases of existence-premortal, mortal, and postmortal.
PREMORTAL JESUS. In the premortal life, Jesus Christ, whose main title was Jehovah, was the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and thus the eldest brother and preeminent above all other spirit children of God. In that first estate, he came to be more intelligent than all other spirits, one “like unto God” (Abr. 3:19, 24), and served as the representative of the Father in the creation of “worlds without number” (Heb. 1:1-3; D&C 76:24; Moses 1:33;7:30). LDS leaders have declared that all revelation since the Fall of Adam has been by, and through, Jehovah (Jesus Christ) and that whenever the Father has appeared unto man, it has been to introduce and bear record of the Son (JST John 1:19; DS 1:27). He was known to Adam, and the Patriarchs from Adam to Noah worshiped him in humble reverence. He was the Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God-Lawgiver on Sinai, the Holy One of Israel. Scriptural records affirm that all the prophets from the beginning spoke or wrote of the time when Jehovah would come to earth in the form of man, in the role of a messiah. Peter said, “to him give all the prophets witness” (Acts 2:25-31;10:43). Jacob taught that “none of the prophets have written, nor prophesied, save they have spoken concerning this Christ” (Jacob 7:11; cf. Mosiah 3:5-10;13:33; 3 Ne. 20:24).
MORTAL JESUS. Jehovah was born into this life in Bethlehem of Judea and grew up as Jesus of Nazareth. He came in condescension-leaving his station as the Lord Omnipotent to undertake a mission of pain and humiliation, having everlasting consequences for mankind (see 1 Ne. 11; Mosiah 3:5-10; see also Condescension of God). His life was one of moral perfection-he was sinless and completely submissive to the will of the Father (John 5:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15; 1 Pet. 2:22; Mosiah 15:2). Jesus is the model and exemplar of all who seek to acquire the divine nature. As taught by Joseph Smith, the Savior “suffered greater sufferings, and was exposed to more powerful contradictions than any man can be.” Through all of this, “he kept the law of God, and remained without sin” (Lectures on Faith, Lecture 5, paragraph 2). The risen Lord asked the Nephites, “What manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am” (3 Ne. 27:27; cf. 12:48).
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
part 2
Jesus was more, however, than sinlessness, goodness, and love. He was more than a model and teacher, more than the embodiment of compassion. He was able to accomplish his unique ministry-a ministry of reconciliation and salvation-because of who and what he was. President Ezra Taft Benson stated, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was fathered by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father!” (Benson, p. 4). From mary, a mortal woman, Jesus inherited mortality, including the capacity to die. From his exalted Father he inherited immortality, the capacity to live forever. The Savior’s dual nature-man and God-enabled him to make an infinite Atonement, an accomplishment that no other person, no matter how capable or gifted, could do (cf. Alma 34:9-12). First, he was able, in Gethsemane, in some majestic but incomprehensible manner, to assume the burdens and effects of the sins of all mankind and, in doing so, to engage suffering and anguish beyond what a mere mortal could endure (2 Ne. 9:21; Mosiah 3:7; D&C 18:11;19:16; Taylor, p. 148). Second, he was able to submit to physical death, to willingly lay down his life and then take up his body again in the resurrection (John 5:26;10:17, 18; 2 Ne. 2:8).
POSTMORTAL JESUS. Latter-day Saints believe that between his death on the cross at Calvary and his resurrection, Jesus’ spirit entered the spirit world, a postmortal place of the disembodied, those awaiting and preparing for the reunion of their bodies and spirits. Peter taught that Christ went into this realm to preach to the spirits in prison (1 Pet. 3:18-20;4:6). A modern revelation explains that Jesus did not go himself among the wicked and disobedient who had rejected the truth. Rather, he ministered to the righteous in paradise and organized and empowered them to teach those spirits who remained in darkness under the bondage of sin and ignorance (see D&C 138:29-32). Thus, the Messiah’s mission to “preach good tidings unto the meek,” to “bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound” (Isa. 61:1; Luke 4:18-19) extended after death into the life beyond (see Salvation of the Dead; Spirit Prison).
Jesus “broke the bands of death”; he was the “first fruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20; Alma 11:40-41). He rose from the tomb with an immortal, glorified body and initiated the first resurrection or the resurrection of the just, the raising of the righteous dead who had lived from the days of Adam to the time of Christ (Matt. 27:52-53; Mosiah 15:21-25; Hel. 14:25-26; 3 Ne. 23:7-13). Jesus Christ will come again to earth in power and glory. The first resurrection, begun at the time of Christ’s resurrection, will resume as the righteous dead from the meridian of time to his second coming return with him in resurrected and immortal glory. This second advent will also signal the beginning of the Millennium, a thousand years of earthly peace during which Satan will be bound and have no power over the hearts of those who remain on earth (Rev. 20:1-2; 1 Ne. 22:26). Joseph Smith taught that “Christ and the resurrected Saints will reign over the earth during the thousand years. They will not probably dwell upon the earth [constantly], but will visit it when they please, or when it is necessary to govern it” (TPJS, p. 268). During this era, Jesus will reveal himself, and, in the words of Isaiah, “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 11:9; Heb. 2:14).
Jesus Christ is the God of the whole earth and invites all nations and people to come unto him. His mortal ministry, as described in the New Testament, was primarily among the Jews. Following his death and resurrection he appeared to his “other sheep,” groups of scattered Israelites. First, as described in the Book of Mormon, he ministered to the Nephites in America. He taught them his gospel and authorized them to officiate in his name. He then visited the lost tribes, the ten northern tribes of Israel, which were scattered at the time of the Assyrian captivity in 721 B.C. (John 10:16; 3 Ne. 15:12-16;17:4). In addition to the appearances recorded in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, which are ancient scriptural witnesses of the Redeemer, Joseph Smith testified that Jesus Christ, in company with his Eternal Father, appeared to him near Palmyra, New York, in the spring of 1820 to open the dispensation of the fulness of times (JS-H 1:1-20; see First Vision). On subsequent occasions the risen Savior has visited and revealed himself to his latter-day prophets and continues to direct his latter-day Church and kingdom (see Jesus Christ: Latter-Day Appearances of Jesus Christ).
Latter-day Saints center their worship in, and direct their prayers to, God the Eternal Father. This, as with all things-sermons, testimonies, prayers, and sacraments or ordinances-they do in the name of Jesus Christ (2 Ne. 25:16; Jacob 4:4-5; 3 Ne. 18:19; D&C 20:29; Moses 5:8). The Saints also worship Christ the Son as they acknowledge him as the source of truth and redemption, as the light and life of the world, as the way to the Father (John 14:6; 2 Ne. 25:29; 3 Ne. 11:11). They look to him for deliverance and seek to be like him (see D&C 93:12-20; McConkie, 1978, pp. 568-69). In emphasizing the transforming power of Christ’s example, President David O. McKay observed that “no man can sincerely resolve to apply to his daily life the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth without sensing a change in his own nature” (IE 65 [June 1962]:405).
Jesus was more, however, than sinlessness, goodness, and love. He was more than a model and teacher, more than the embodiment of compassion. He was able to accomplish his unique ministry-a ministry of reconciliation and salvation-because of who and what he was. President Ezra Taft Benson stated, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was fathered by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father!” (Benson, p. 4). From mary, a mortal woman, Jesus inherited mortality, including the capacity to die. From his exalted Father he inherited immortality, the capacity to live forever. The Savior’s dual nature-man and God-enabled him to make an infinite Atonement, an accomplishment that no other person, no matter how capable or gifted, could do (cf. Alma 34:9-12). First, he was able, in Gethsemane, in some majestic but incomprehensible manner, to assume the burdens and effects of the sins of all mankind and, in doing so, to engage suffering and anguish beyond what a mere mortal could endure (2 Ne. 9:21; Mosiah 3:7; D&C 18:11;19:16; Taylor, p. 148). Second, he was able to submit to physical death, to willingly lay down his life and then take up his body again in the resurrection (John 5:26;10:17, 18; 2 Ne. 2:8).
POSTMORTAL JESUS. Latter-day Saints believe that between his death on the cross at Calvary and his resurrection, Jesus’ spirit entered the spirit world, a postmortal place of the disembodied, those awaiting and preparing for the reunion of their bodies and spirits. Peter taught that Christ went into this realm to preach to the spirits in prison (1 Pet. 3:18-20;4:6). A modern revelation explains that Jesus did not go himself among the wicked and disobedient who had rejected the truth. Rather, he ministered to the righteous in paradise and organized and empowered them to teach those spirits who remained in darkness under the bondage of sin and ignorance (see D&C 138:29-32). Thus, the Messiah’s mission to “preach good tidings unto the meek,” to “bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound” (Isa. 61:1; Luke 4:18-19) extended after death into the life beyond (see Salvation of the Dead; Spirit Prison).
Jesus “broke the bands of death”; he was the “first fruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20; Alma 11:40-41). He rose from the tomb with an immortal, glorified body and initiated the first resurrection or the resurrection of the just, the raising of the righteous dead who had lived from the days of Adam to the time of Christ (Matt. 27:52-53; Mosiah 15:21-25; Hel. 14:25-26; 3 Ne. 23:7-13). Jesus Christ will come again to earth in power and glory. The first resurrection, begun at the time of Christ’s resurrection, will resume as the righteous dead from the meridian of time to his second coming return with him in resurrected and immortal glory. This second advent will also signal the beginning of the Millennium, a thousand years of earthly peace during which Satan will be bound and have no power over the hearts of those who remain on earth (Rev. 20:1-2; 1 Ne. 22:26). Joseph Smith taught that “Christ and the resurrected Saints will reign over the earth during the thousand years. They will not probably dwell upon the earth [constantly], but will visit it when they please, or when it is necessary to govern it” (TPJS, p. 268). During this era, Jesus will reveal himself, and, in the words of Isaiah, “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 11:9; Heb. 2:14).
Jesus Christ is the God of the whole earth and invites all nations and people to come unto him. His mortal ministry, as described in the New Testament, was primarily among the Jews. Following his death and resurrection he appeared to his “other sheep,” groups of scattered Israelites. First, as described in the Book of Mormon, he ministered to the Nephites in America. He taught them his gospel and authorized them to officiate in his name. He then visited the lost tribes, the ten northern tribes of Israel, which were scattered at the time of the Assyrian captivity in 721 B.C. (John 10:16; 3 Ne. 15:12-16;17:4). In addition to the appearances recorded in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, which are ancient scriptural witnesses of the Redeemer, Joseph Smith testified that Jesus Christ, in company with his Eternal Father, appeared to him near Palmyra, New York, in the spring of 1820 to open the dispensation of the fulness of times (JS-H 1:1-20; see First Vision). On subsequent occasions the risen Savior has visited and revealed himself to his latter-day prophets and continues to direct his latter-day Church and kingdom (see Jesus Christ: Latter-Day Appearances of Jesus Christ).
Latter-day Saints center their worship in, and direct their prayers to, God the Eternal Father. This, as with all things-sermons, testimonies, prayers, and sacraments or ordinances-they do in the name of Jesus Christ (2 Ne. 25:16; Jacob 4:4-5; 3 Ne. 18:19; D&C 20:29; Moses 5:8). The Saints also worship Christ the Son as they acknowledge him as the source of truth and redemption, as the light and life of the world, as the way to the Father (John 14:6; 2 Ne. 25:29; 3 Ne. 11:11). They look to him for deliverance and seek to be like him (see D&C 93:12-20; McConkie, 1978, pp. 568-69). In emphasizing the transforming power of Christ’s example, President David O. McKay observed that “no man can sincerely resolve to apply to his daily life the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth without sensing a change in his own nature” (IE 65 [June 1962]:405).
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Part III
Jesus Christ brought to pass the bodily resurrection of all who have lived or who will yet live upon the earth (1 Cor. 15:21-22; Alma 11:40-42). Because he overcame the world, all men and women may-by exercising faith in him, trusting in his merits, and receiving his grace-repent of their sins and know the peace of personal purity and spiritual wholeness (John 14:27; Phil. 4:7; 2 Ne. 2:8;25:23; Enos 1:1-8; Mosiah 4:1-3). Those who have learned to rely on the Lord and lean upon his tender mercies “sing the song of redeeming love” (Alma 5:26). Nephi 1, the Book of Mormon prophet-leader, exulted, “I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell” (2 Ne. 33:6). “We talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ,…that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins” (2 Ne. 25:26). A latter-day apostle has written:
I believe in Christ; He stands supreme!
From him I’ll gain my fondest dream;
And while I strive through grief and pain,
His voice is heard: Ye shall obtain.
I believe in Christ; so come what may,
With him I’ll stand in that great day
When on this earth he comes again
To rule among the sons of men.
Jesus Christ brought to pass the bodily resurrection of all who have lived or who will yet live upon the earth (1 Cor. 15:21-22; Alma 11:40-42). Because he overcame the world, all men and women may-by exercising faith in him, trusting in his merits, and receiving his grace-repent of their sins and know the peace of personal purity and spiritual wholeness (John 14:27; Phil. 4:7; 2 Ne. 2:8;25:23; Enos 1:1-8; Mosiah 4:1-3). Those who have learned to rely on the Lord and lean upon his tender mercies “sing the song of redeeming love” (Alma 5:26). Nephi 1, the Book of Mormon prophet-leader, exulted, “I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell” (2 Ne. 33:6). “We talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ,…that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins” (2 Ne. 25:26). A latter-day apostle has written:
I believe in Christ; He stands supreme!
From him I’ll gain my fondest dream;
And while I strive through grief and pain,
His voice is heard: Ye shall obtain.
I believe in Christ; so come what may,
With him I’ll stand in that great day
When on this earth he comes again
To rule among the sons of men.
M
Michael85
Guest
“Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers,” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547).
“The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit,” (Religious Truths Defined, p. 44, as cited in the book, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, by Gerald and Sandra Tanner, Utah Lighthouse Ministry, P.O. Box 1884, Salt Lake City, Utah 84110, bookstore at 1358 South West Temple, 1982, p. 260).
“Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38)
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
“That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
J
jas84173
Guest
Both Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons claim a apostasy occurred after the Apostles died and they are the true Church restored. I am not going to say how ridiculous the apostasy thing is, but will say this; We claim they aren’t Christian because of their beliefs such as not accepting the Nicaea Creed and huge differences in the nature of Jesus and are non trinitarian. When it comes down to it though they could say we are not true Christians. Which sounds ridiculous . The apostasy thing they throw around has no merit and personally is a slap in the face to all of the martyrs of the Church. But that’s what they claim, in different circumstances that the Church was going to be restored by them, and to them their teaching of the Gospel is the truth where we are wrong. I am not saying I support this view because I think it a complete heresy; but that is what they believe. So it comes down to really whether or not you think a non trinitarian can be a Christian, and if an apostasy occurred they claim their faiths restored the original Church. So yes they are Christian in a certain point of view. They are also heretics though.
M
Midwest88
Guest
- Bigger families.
- Better at keeping sex within marriage.
- Wrong theological philosophy. A false prophet they look to.
P
Porknpie
Guest
When they come knocking on the door (or if find them in the street…) I always confirm this timing above. Generally, they will state by 100ad. I then ask them how is it that they know and trust that all 27 books of the NT are theopneustos? And, I ask if they believe that those early Christians who professed 27 books, were infallible in their repeated declarations?
Then of course it gets very interesting from there.
How is that a Church that went apostate in the very early 2nd century, could 300 years later be infallible on the canon of scripture itself?
One response to this question that I’ve had multiple times: “that’s a good question”
A second response to this question, from JW’s in particular, is disengagement, even anger and walking away, disblieving that they actually trust in the authority of Catholic Bishops to have said so.
They have a hard time believing that it is a Catholic book.
- Status