What is the Catholic view regarding Muslims salvation?

[Jon_S_1]

and then what complicates this even more is that too any people confuse what evangelizing is and what it entails and in fact are not evangelizing but proselytizing and don’t just set the lifeboat in the water and row it over to them but take the life boat and wack them over the head with it and drown them before the even have a chance to get into the life boat let alone hang onto its sides all the time throwing it in thier face that they will be damned if they don’t get in.

I’m still struggling with keeping the proper balance…

Yes, evangelizing does not mean proselytizing.

Have you seen the movie “the mission” about the Jesuit missionaries to South America in the 17th century.

It’s a great movie and fantastic portrayal of evangelizing.

Evangelizing is going and being amongst people in a real way. Supporting them, answering their questions, teaching them, and bringing the faith to them through our lives.

Think mother Theresa and her mission. We can do that in our own lives, among our family friends and co workers.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I have nevee once came across anyone that has said unless you are baptised in a Catholic Church you will be damned. The rigorist position, to which I personally hold, a long with the so-called Feeneyites, is that water baptism is necessary. We recognise the baptisms of non-Catholics to be valid. We’re not Donatists.

You are free to believe we’re wrong, but you cammot definitively say we are. The Church allows us to hols our opinion, and the Church allows you to hold your opinion. As a Thomist I would certainly believe a Molinist to be wrong; but the Church does not speak either way.

I didn’t mean to imply you held this position.

I used two hypothetical extremes with most people laying across the spectrum in between.

 

[simple_soul]

Yes, evangelizing does not mean proselytizing.

Have you seen the movie “the mission” about the Jesuit missionaries to South America in the 17th century.

It’s a great movie and fantastic portrayal of evangelizing.

Evangelizing is going and being amongst people in a real way. Supporting them, answering their questions, teaching them, and bringing the faith to them through our lives.

Think mother Theresa and her mission. We can do that in our own lives, among our family friends and co workers.

I have never watched the movie but if you are equating it to Mother Theresa’s work I’ll have to check it out.

 

[Sirach2]

Thomas explains it, when he says, that if anyone was brought up in the wilds, or even among brute beasts, and if he followed the law of natural reason, to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe either that God, by an internal inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send someone to preach the Faith to him, as he sent Peter to Cornelius. Thus, then, according to the Angelic Doctor [St. Thomas], God, at least remotely, gives to infidels, who have the use of reason, sufficient grace to obtain salvation, and this grace consists in a certain instruction of the mind, and in a movement of the will, to observe the natural law; andembracethe Faith. (The History of Heresies, Refutation 6, #11, p. 457)

For the other contributors to this thread, the above is Saint Alphonsus’ teaching. Another Doctor of the Church that stated that explicit faith is necessary to be saved.

Every single TRAD website, barring none, quotes this remark in defense of the Feeneyite position. You are no different, and I am not surprised that you resort to such a fallacious argument to plead your cause. While our saint “may” have said this, and “may” have felt it was true many centuries ago, he has been outstripped by the lawful authority of the Magisterium many times over. Remember that. You cannot put Aquinas’ ancient thought above development of dogma as has taken place fully in V-II to counter your allegations. He is NOT the Magisterium, and a person will find himself in opposition to the Church if he puts all his eggs in this basket.

 

[O_Sapientia]

Every single TRAD website, barring none, quotes this remark in defense of the Feeneyite position. You are no different, and I am not surprised that you resort to such a fallacious argument to plead your cause. While our saint “may” have said this, and “may” have felt it was true many centuries ago, he has been outstripped by the lawful authority of the Magisterium many times over. Remember that. You cannot put Aquinas’ ancient thought above development of dogma as has taken place fully in V-II to counter your allegations. He is NOT the Magisterium, and a person will find himself in opposition to the Church if he puts all his eggs in this basket.

Are you serious? I genuinely don’t understand you.

You originally introduced the teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas in defense of your argument, I sourced from the same the author against you and then you throw a fit and dismiss what he says just because it does not agree with your sensibilities? Good Lord, you really must pause and take a proper look at yourself.

Furthermore, it isn’t that Saint Thomas may have said it. He did say it. He said it in The Disputed Questions on Truth, Question 14, Article 11. Here is a link to the Latin and English for you.

But I certainly agree with you that the Magisterium trumps Saint Thomas Aquinas. We are to anchor ourselves in the authority of the Church, not Saint Thomas, regardless of how wise he was.

So what does the Church say? The Athanasian Creed says…

Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the Catholic faith. For unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire, he will undoubtedly be lost forever. This is what the catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.

But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty. What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.

The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.

Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being. So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being. Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent.

Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being. Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

However, there are not three gods, but one God. The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord. However, there are not three lords, but one Lord. For as we are obliged by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person singly to be God and Lord, so too are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.

The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone. The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone. The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son. There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less. The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another. So that in all things, as is has been said above, the Unity is to be worshiped in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity.

He, therefore, who wishes to be saved, must believe thus about the Trinity. It is also necessary for eternal salvation that he believes steadfastly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man. As God, He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time; as man, He was born in time of the substance of His Mother. He is perfect God; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh. He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but inferior to the Father in His humanity. Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ. And He is one, not because His divinity was changed into flesh, but because His humanity was assumed unto God. He is one, not by a mingling of substances, but by unity of person. As a rational soul and flesh are one man: so God and man are one Christ. He died for our salvation, descended into Hell, and rose from the dead on the third day. He ascended into Heaven, sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At His coming, all men are to arise with their own bodies; and they are to give an account of their own deeds. Those who have done good deeds will go into eternal life; those who have done evil will go into the everlasting fire.

This is the Catholic faith. Everyone must believe it, firmly and steadfastly; otherwise He cannot be saved. Amen.

[Continued below]

 

[O_Sapientia]

[Continued from above]

I have barely scratched the surface of magisterial teaching which states that faith is necessary. But I don’t have to resort to pre-Conciliar teachings. Be I completely and utterly accept the Second Vatican Council’s teaching. And the Second Vatican Council in Ad Gentes §7 says:

“…those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it. Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the Church (1 Cor. 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel.”

The Second Vatican Council said the exact same thing that Saint Thomas Aquinas said and the exact same thing that the Creed says and the exact same thing that Scripture said. Faith is necessary and it must be explicit. Implicit faith being sufficient for salvation is not taught by the Second Vatican Council.

What does Lumen Gentium say?

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Lumen Gentium talks about God’s extraordinary grace bringing ignorant individuals to the knowledge of the faith. It’s black and white, it’s right there. You have implicitly accused me of opposing the Magisterium of the Church. How dare you make such an accusation simply because I reject your theological opinion which has absolutely no basis in Magisterial teaching?

You said you have pages and pages of citations? You are so extraordinarily well read in this matter?

Provide three magisterial documents that state that an ignorant individual who dies in such a state, can be saved by their implicit faith.

 

[Sirach2]

I have no dog in this fight, and I don’t invest my time when the tone has escalated to slurs and insults. I am cognizant of where NOT to cast my pearls and leave the dust bin to you as I shake my feet.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

I have no dog in this fight, and I don’t invest my time when the tone has escalated to slurs and insults. I am cognizant of where NOT to cast my pearls and leave the dust bin to you as I shake my feet.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

This is not true, and the Church has taught B. of D. for many centuries, without the restrictions you have placed. Your research is incomplete and faulty.

I could cite pages upon pages of Church teaching which will reveal the errors of your thinking. It isn’t necessary to try and win my point with you. Most Catholics understand the concept of EENS clearly, except for the few who are like-minded hard-line traditionalists that distort the truth.

BTW, 23 is mature???

Thank you for abstaining from further distortions.

Outstanding. Thank you for calling them on it.

This is why I always encourage people to see a Priest/Bishop for clarification.When they come on here they get all sorts of misinformation from people with their own agenda.