What is the Catholic view regarding Muslims salvation?

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SAVINGRACE said:
Catholics please read your Catechism again. Nowhere does it say 'however in my opinion"

Jews hold a special place which is why the Church forbids their prosletysing.

Muslims are First amongst non-christians.

"The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.** "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims**; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
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Again, I agree with this, how do you respond to my posts pointing out that you have to read more than 1 sentence.

How do you respond to popes saying the exact opposite of you?
 
Jon_S said:
Perhaps you disagree with Tin Staples too?

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do

Perhaps you disagree with Pope John Paul 2?
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No Pope and I seriously doubt that Tim Staples has ever taught anything which contradicts the Catechism teachings which have been posted above.

What is in error is your interpretation. Read the bold lines above. It was taken straight out of the Catechism. Of course, you could choose to continue telling people that there is no hope of Salvation for them, you just need to know that your own soul is in jeopardy if you do.

I have read more than one sentence, I have read the entire thing. Nowhere does it say that ‘in my opinion very few will be saved.’
 
SAVINGRACE said:
No Pope and I seriously doubt that Tim Staples has ever taught anything which contradicts the Catechism teachings which have been posted above.

What is in error is your interpretation. Read the bold lines above. It was taken straight out of the Catechism. Of course, you could choose to continue telling people that there is no hope of Salvation for them, you just need to know that your own soul is in jeopardy if you do.

I have read more than one sentence, I have read the entire thing. Nowhere does it say that ‘in my opinion very few will be saved.’
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No where did I say “very few will be saved”

What I said is that

Muslims are no more guaranteed salvation than Catholics

Muslims along with all non Catholics should be evangelized and brought the fullness of truth in the church.

The only revealed way of salvation is through Christ and his church.

Others may be able to find salvation but this is a presumption of Gods justice not a guarantee as such they should be given the Gospel.

And finally as Tim Staples and Pope John Paul 2 say, Muslims that are saved will be saved despite Islam not because of it. M

Please re read my posts and links I shared before commenting about something I never said.

But that said, my personal opinion is that Jesus meant what he said when he said “broad is the path to damnation and many find it.”
 
It is an open forum with Tim Staples today…I think I will call and ask him!
 
I called in and Tim answered the question wonderfully.

I will post a linkto the podcast when it’s available. I was the first caller.

He basically said, the plan of salvation includes everyone, that is different than saying all are saved. He said our own salvation is dependent on us sharing the gospel with everyone including the Muslims. We aren’t to presume anyone’s salvation.

He recommended reading Pope Paul VI DOCUMENT, * Evangelii Nuntiandi * which was written in 1975 and spoke against the ideas people were forming regarding Indifferentism.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19751208_evangelii-nuntiandi_en.html

I will be reading it tonight and I hope you all do too.
 
EasterBeagle said:
Thistle, you should invest in a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Then read it.
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I read the CCC every day. It does not say Muslims WILL be saved.

Church teaching is clear:
  • Baptism is necessary for salvation.
  • There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church
How is someone baptised and within the Catholic Church?
  • Sacramentally baptised as a Catholic
  • Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic faith)
  • Baptism of Desire - Explicit (e.g. a catechumen)
  • Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance - anyone who through no fault of their own does not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but lives a life in accordance with the teachings of Christ in that ignorance MAY (not will) be saved).
Nobody outside the above will be saved.

Anyone who consciously denies Jesus is God and rejects his Church and dies in that state goes to Hell.
Muslims consciously deny Jesus is God and reject his Church. Therefore unless they acknowledge Christ and ask for his mercy before they die they are condemned.
 
My concern is,how do you stop agnostics perceiving that Catholics think they are some sort of “exclusive special club” that only they get into (regarding eternal life I mean)?
This can cause some people to feel rejected in the same way som feel rejected when denied the Holy Communion as they don’t understand what it’s really about and feel personally rejected.

An answer also mentioned that Catholics should evangelise but I thought I read recently that the Pope said not to prolesytise but instead to discuss religion with others and your views etc in friendly open manner?
Maybe I was wrong and didn’t fully catch what he was saying,but in general I’ve never heard any of the Catholic priests at the Churches that I’ve attended ever say go out and evangelise.
On the other hand, i do know a certain Catholic who does go out and do that though.

What does the below literally mean please?
Ie:what does being vain in reasoning mean and does serving the created refer to people who worship nature,Wicca etc or does it refer to something else?

“Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333”

Jesus did say in the bible that very few would be saved because the gate is narrow,is that correct?
At the same time it could cause a sense of hopelessness in dome people,no?

Thanks
 
thistle said:
I read the CCC every day. It does not say Muslims WILL be saved.

Church teaching is clear:
  • Baptism is necessary for salvation.
  • There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church
How is someone baptised and within the Catholic Church?
  • Sacramentally baptised as a Catholic
  • Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic faith)
  • Baptism of Desire - Explicit (e.g. a catechumen)
  • Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance - anyone who through no fault of their own does not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but lives a life in accordance with the teachings of Christ in that ignorance MAY (not will) be saved).
Nobody outside the above will be saved.

Anyone who consciously denies Jesus is God and rejects his Church and dies in that state goes to Hell.
Muslims consciously deny Jesus is God and reject his Church. Therefore unless they acknowledge Christ and ask for his mercy before they die they are condemned.
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In which circumstance would a non Catholic die for the Catholic faith?
Regarding Muslims denying Jesus,dont many people just follow the religion of their parents and take on the belief of their parents?
 
Sereta said:
In which circumstance would a non Catholic die for the Catholic faith?
Regarding Muslims denying Jesus,dont many people just follow the religion of their parents and take on the belief of their parents?
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As for your question about Baptism of Blood I don’t know what such circumstances would be. I just know that is the Church teaching and definition of Baptism of Blood.

As for Muslims the answer is is no. They are taught about Jesus but that he was created, he is not God but only a prophet and that he did not die on the Cross. For me that is conscious rejection of Christ.
 
thistle said:
As for Muslims the answer is is no. They are taught about Jesus but that he was created, he is not God but only a prophet and that he did not die on the Cross. For me that is conscious rejection of Christ.
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These people are ignorant of the truth about Christ. This is what JPII wrote about in Redemptoris Missio when he said:
Many people do not have the opportunity to come to know or accept the Gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions
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Their rejection of Christ is based on ignorance in the first place. Whether an individual’s ingorance is truly “inculpably ignorant” is for God alone to decide (as per the quote offered previously).

Thus, we evangelise to them, to try to teach them the truth about Christ, since we cannot presume their slavation is safe through mere ignorance of the gospel, but neither we do presume they go to hell if they do not accept it.
 
That’s a bit of a stretch from: “The plan of SALVATION also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the FIRST place amongst whom are the Muslims”. Maybe the Catechism says “first” because the Muslims respect both Jesus and Mary in the Koran. I think Mary is mentioned sosomething like 7 times. But both Jesus and Mary are completely out of the question for Jews. That sounds like a plausible rational.
 
Sereta said:
My concern is,how do you stop agnostics perceiving that Catholics think they are some sort of “exclusive special club” that only they get into (regarding eternal life I mean)?
This can cause some people to feel rejected in the same way som feel rejected when denied the Holy Communion as they don’t understand what it’s really about and feel personally rejected.

An answer also mentioned that Catholics should evangelise but I thought I read recently that the Pope said not to prolesytise but instead to discuss religion with others and your views etc in friendly open manner?
Maybe I was wrong and didn’t fully catch what he was saying,but in general I’ve never heard any of the Catholic priests at the Churches that I’ve attended ever say go out and evangelise.
On the other hand, i do know a certain Catholic who does go out and do that though.

What does the below literally mean please?
Ie:what does being vain in reasoning mean and does serving the created refer to people who worship nature,Wicca etc or does it refer to something else?

“Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333”

Jesus did say in the bible that very few would be saved because the gate is narrow,is that correct?
At the same time it could cause a sense of hopelessness in dome people,no?

Thanks
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There is a big difference between proselytizing and evangelizing. We can evangelize in our words and deeds and make our life a mission. This forum is a form of evangelization. The church is championing a push to evangelize right now.

We worship the created whenever we worship or place prime in our lives someone or something other than God. The church talks about things like pride, fame, money etc…being idols.

As far as the exclusive club thing…the church is here for the salvation of souls, not the appeasement of the popular culture.

Those left outside the ark, I’m sure felt quite rejected and excluded, sadly this was/is solely by their choice to reject the gift of salvation, the ark of the church.

All are welcome to enter, many choose themselves (Catholics included) instead.
 
EasterBeagle said:
That’s a bit of a stretch from: “The plan of SALVATION also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the FIRST place amongst whom are the Muslims”. Maybe the Catechism says “first” because the Muslims respect both Jesus and Mary in the Koran. I think Mary is mentioned sosomething like 7 times. But both Jesus and Mary are completely out of the question for Jews. That sounds like a plausible rational.
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Except, the catechism and church places the Jewish religion in more esteem than Islam (read the paragraphs before 841). Not that it really matters, because they all need the gospel.

I get that you choose to reject the church teaching in exchange for your personal beliefs, but don’t come here and claim to speak what the church teaches and defend it with nothing but a single sentence over and over and over.

There is 2000 yrs of writing you can pick from to show us why Islam is equal to Catholicism.
 
I don’t know how sound my opinion is, but I think God can save Muslims, other Muslims, might have to go through the soul car wash in purgatory.
 
Obviously the Catholic Bible is paramount, but we can’t just throw the Catechism out the window.
 
EasterBeagle said:
Obviously the Catholic Bible is paramount, but we can’t just throw the Catechism out the window.
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Sure, and the catechism does not exist in a vacuum. It is a written description of church doctrine. It is foot noted and a reflection of the many documents coming from many counsels, Saints, popes, church fathers, and the Bible.

This paragraph 841 is from Lumen Gentium.

So read what people say about the paragraph. We aren’t to interpret it ourselves, the church interprets it as it is she who provides it.
 
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