What is the cause of obedience?

[fakename]

From another thread but it applies here too:

Why should we obey is the question. Because it’s good for us seems to be a rather question begging answer. Nor does it seem to be an essential explanation in that there many things which we do which are good for us, which are not strictly obedience so how does the explanation differentiate obedience from any other generic good?

The only real reason for obedience is if we think that the people above us are better. I think we can gleam that from certain phrases in the summa
"Obedience proceeds from reverence, which pays worship and honor to a superior, newadvent.org/summa/3104.htm#article5

So obedience is given just in the case that honor exists in the superior. But honor is always given for some objective superiority or “betterness” that someone else has. Therefore it seems that obedience exists just in the case that someone better than you asks you to do something from an authority derived from his merits.

So when we ask about papal authority, or any kind of authoritativeness, I think we should
ask what honor that person has, by ways of justifying our obedience.

I’m sure that honor comes from God and the sacrament of holy orders, but does this extend to anything a bishop says about how to practice Catholicism?

 

[DavidFilmer]

I challenge the basic premise of the question.

The only real reason for obedience is if we think that the people above us are better.

That has NOTHING to do with obedience. The ONLY real reason for obedience is that someone has been given authority over us. My boss at work is a great guy, but it would not matter if he was a scoundrel - he is still my boss. If I want to keep my job, I do what he directs me to do. Soldiers are obedient to EVERYONE of higher rank - regardless of their personal merit.

And, indeed, an officer might have many people under his command who are “better” than he is (in whatever sense of the word you might wish to use), but it does not change the dynamic of authority or obedience.

I think we can gleam that from certain phrases in the summa
"Obedience proceeds from reverence, which pays worship and honor to a superior,

I don’t think you get the sense of Aquinas’ statement. He is saying that obedience worships and honors the superior (we don’t use the word “worship” today in the same way that Aquinas did). We “honor” people all the time (medals, awards, etc). But that does not mean that person does not go home every night and beat his wife.

So when we ask about papal authority, or any kind of authoritativeness, I think we should ask what honor that person has, by ways of justifying our obedience.

Again, personal merit is irrelevant. We should ask what AUTHORITY that person has.

I’m sure that honor comes from God and the sacrament of holy orders, but does this extend to anything a bishop says about how to practice Catholicism?

*Honor *does not come from God - *authority *comes from God. Honor is how WE respond to that authority (not the personal merit of the person who has that authority).

 

[St_Francis]

…So obedience is given just in the case that honor exists in the superior. But honor is always given for some objective superiority or “betterness” that someone else has. Therefore it seems that obedience exists just in the case that someone better than you asks you to do something from an authority derived from his merits…

You answered your own question: when the superiority is objective, meaning it *is *regardless of the subjective aspects of the person.

I’m sure that honor comes from God and the sacrament of holy orders, but does this extend to anything a bishop says about how to practice Catholicism?

If what the bishop says is in line with how one practices the Faith, then yes. If a superior commands someone to do something immoral, that would be a wrongful command which we are not to obey.

So if the bishop said we should all go to Sunday Mass on Tuesday, we should not obey, but if he says we should all pray for the bishop emeritus, then we should.

 

[JRKH]

What is the cause of obedience??

Humility and a desire to serve rather than to be served.

Jesus tells us that he would would be the greatest must be the servant of others.

Peace
James

 

[Seeker1961]

In the case of Christianity, I believe that it begins with an understanding of God’s love for us. Obeying an invisible God is different than obeying a person, it requires a different level of understanding.

When we finally understand how much God loves us, and the enormity of that love-obedience follows naturally. It’s unthinkable to do anything else. Now, as that understanding grows, our reasons for obedience change. We want to learn more about God, and we want to be more like Him-so our obedience becomes grounded in something less about ourselves and our own feelings and more about serving Him and serving others.

 

[JRKH]

In the case of Christianity, I believe that it begins with an understanding of God’s love for us. Obeying an invisible God is different than obeying a person, it requires a different level of understanding.

When we finally understand how much God loves us, and the enormity of that love-obedience follows naturally. It’s unthinkable to do anything else. Now, as that understanding grows, our reasons for obedience change. We want to learn more about God, and we want to be more like Him-so our obedience becomes grounded in something less about ourselves and our own feelings and more about serving Him and serving others.

Peace
James

 

[fakename]

I challenge the basic premise of the question.

That has NOTHING to do with obedience. The ONLY real reason for obedience is that someone has been given authority over us. My boss at work is a great guy, but it would not matter if he was a scoundrel - he is still my boss. If I want to keep my job, I do what he directs me to do. Soldiers are obedient to EVERYONE of higher rank - regardless of their personal merit.

And, indeed, an officer might have many people under his command who are “better” than he is (in whatever sense of the word you might wish to use), but it does not change the dynamic of authority or obedience.

I don’t think you get the sense of Aquinas’ statement. He is saying that obedience worships and honors the superior (we don’t use the word “worship” today in the same way that Aquinas did). We “honor” people all the time (medals, awards, etc). But that does not mean that person does not go home every night and beat his wife.

Again, personal merit is irrelevant. We should ask what AUTHORITY that person has.

*Honor *does not come from God - *authority *comes from God. Honor is how WE respond to that authority (not the personal merit of the person who has that authority).

But what is authority? What causes it and on what is it based?

Clearly the answer to these questions must be such that it allows authority to be abused (it cannot be an absolute thing) and also it must be logical or capable of being accepted reasonably.

(And also, when I mean superior, I mean it in the sense that a person is better than us at something and not in everything).

 

[fakename]

You answered your own question: when the superiority is objective, meaning it *is *regardless of the subjective aspects of the person.

If what the bishop says is in line with how one practices the Faith, then yes. If a superior commands someone to do something immoral, that would be a wrongful command which we are not to obey.

So if the bishop said we should all go to Sunday Mass on Tuesday, we should not obey, but if he says we should all pray for the bishop emeritus, then we should.

But somethings are not against the faith and yet are still commands: do not support the Iraq war for instance. There’s nothing wrong about that in the abstract but people may have different opinions and would not be expected to obey something like that.

 

[St_Francis]

But somethings are not against the faith and yet are still commands: do not support the Iraq war for instance. There’s nothing wrong about that in the abstract but people may have different opinions and would not be expected to obey something like that.

Has a bishop said this?

 

[Michael1966]

Hi Fakename

Something I bear in mind is where the word ‘obedience’ comes from, and that is from ob “to” + audire “listen, hear”.

So, for me at least, obedience means that I am willing to try to sincerely listen and hear.

 

[fakename]

Has a bishop said this?

No, but I’m saying that if a bishop said it, then it would be consistent with a formulation of obedience and authority which is inconsistent with a more obvious truth.

 

[LucyLight]

What is the cause of obedience??

Humility and a desire to serve rather than to be served.

Jesus tells us that he would would be the greatest must be the servant of others.

Peace
James

I think this shows the difference between obedience and serving. Jesus came to serve us but he did not come to obey us.

 

[DavidFilmer]

But what is authority? What causes it and on what is it based?

It is based on an organizational structure. A business. The military. A PTA. The Boy Scouts. Most such organizations are optional - we choose to associate ourselves and thus impose the organization’s authority upon ourselves. But there is usually the State (government), whose authority is imposed upon us.

(And also, when I mean superior, I mean it in the sense that a person is better than us at something and not in everything).

But superiors are often inferior. Consider the “pointy-haired” boss in Dilbert (by Scott Adams). He is a complete idiot, inferior to ALL of his direct-reports in every way except his ability to deceive his own (similarly incompetent) management regarding his department’s shoddy performance. Adams uses him as a stereotype of incompetent managers. The stereotype would not be humorous if it did not have some basis in reality.

In many organizations (including academia, the military, civil service jobs, and most union shops), authority is based (MUCH) more on tenure than demonstrated ability. As long as you can meet the MINIMUM requirements to keep from being fired/discharged, you are automatically promoted based on your length of service, until you are promoted to a position beyond your ability, where you tend to (ineffectively) linger, instead of being demoted (this is the “Peter principle”).

 

[JRKH]

I think this shows the difference between obedience and serving. Jesus came to serve us but he did not come to obey us.

Good point.

Peace
James

 

[fhansen]

In the case of Christianity, I believe that it begins with an understanding of God’s love for us. Obeying an invisible God is different than obeying a person, it requires a different level of understanding.

When we finally understand how much God loves us, and the enormity of that love-obedience follows naturally. It’s unthinkable to do anything else. Now, as that understanding grows, our reasons for obedience change. We want to learn more about God, and we want to be more like Him-so our obedience becomes grounded in something less about ourselves and our own feelings and more about serving Him and serving others.

This is the real answer!. I like what St Basil said related to this:

**If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children. **

 

[Cinette]

I challenge the basic premise of the question.

That has NOTHING to do with obedience. The ONLY real reason for obedience is that someone has been given authority over us. My boss at work is a great guy, but it would not matter if he was a scoundrel - he is still my boss. If I want to keep my job, I do what he directs me to do. Soldiers are obedient to EVERYONE of higher rank - regardless of their personal merit.

And, indeed, an officer might have many people under his command who are “better” than he is (in whatever sense of the word you might wish to use), but it does not change the dynamic of authority or obedience.

I don’t think you get the sense of Aquinas’ statement. He is saying that obedience worships and honors the superior (we don’t use the word “worship” today in the same way that Aquinas did). We “honor” people all the time (medals, awards, etc). But that does not mean that person does not go home every night and beat his wife.

Again, personal merit is irrelevant. We should ask what AUTHORITY that person has.

*Honor *does not come from God - *authority *comes from God. Honor is how WE respond to that authority (not the personal merit of the person who has that authority).

*This is a great post! Thank you.

My Parish Priest said something recently which has been ringing in my ears eversince. He said the problem with us Catholics is that we are too obedient!! I would have written to him about it (he spoke in front of a room full of people) but I always have something to say and last year wrote to the bishop about him. So I kept quiet! I thank you again.

Cinette*

 

[Cinette]

In the case of Christianity, I believe that it begins with an understanding of God’s love for us. Obeying an invisible God is different than obeying a person, it requires a different level of understanding.

When we finally understand how much God loves us, and the enormity of that love-obedience follows naturally. It’s unthinkable to do anything else. Now, as that understanding grows, our reasons for obedience change. We want to learn more about God, and we want to be more like Him-so our obedience becomes grounded in something less about ourselves and our own feelings and more about serving Him and serving others.

*This thought has been on mind a lot lately: that we have a God who loves us so much and came to earth as a man to teach us and show us the way to Eternal Life. He died for us! How can we ignore this? How can be not respond and **obey ***his precepts? What will we say to him one day when we leave this earth if we ignore his directions?

How can we IGNORE Jesus Christ and his love and sacrifice? Yet people do this every day!!!

 

[JRKH]

*This is a great post! Thank you.

My Parish Priest said something recently which has been ringing in my ears eversince. He said the problem with us Catholics is that we are too obedient!! I would have written to him about it (he spoke in front of a room full of people) but I always have something to say and last year wrote to the bishop about him. So I kept quiet! I thank you again.

Cinette*

You know in some sense I would not disagree with your priest as it applies to some (even many) Catholics.
What I refer to here is the problem of people obeying the rules but not knowing why. Thus, when someone, a non-Catholic, asks them why they “confess to a priest”, or why Sunday mass is “required” on pain of mortal sin, or some other thing they really don’t have an answer beyond simply “thems the rules…”
Obedience is a good thing…Intelligent obedience is even better.

Peace
James

 

[Cinette]

You know in some sense I would not disagree with your priest as it applies to some (even many) Catholics.
What I refer to here is the problem of people obeying the rules but not knowing why. Thus, when someone, a non-Catholic, asks them why they “confess to a priest”, or why Sunday mass is “required” on pain of mortal sin, or some other thing they really don’t have an answer beyond simply “thems the rules…”
Obedience is a good thing…Intelligent obedience is even better.

Peace
James

*When the same priest complained about the lack of vocations I told him that it is a lack of proper Catechises - if parents do not know how to defend the Faith they cannot instruct their children. One of the communion servers (a woman in her sixties) said she did not believe in Purgatory!!!

I agree with what you said but I censure the priest because he said that “the problem with Catholics…” He felt we were too obedient!! They had been criticising the new liturgy. I thought it was a storm in a teacup.

Cinette *

 

[JRKH]

*When the same priest complained about the lack of vocations I told him that it is a lack of proper Catechises - if parents do not know how to defend the Faith they cannot instruct their children. One of the communion servers (a woman in her sixties) said she did not believe in Purgatory!!!

I agree with what you said but I censure the priest because he said that “the problem with Catholics…” He felt we were too obedient!! They had been criticising the new liturgy. I thought it was a storm in a teacup.

Cinette *

Yes - I agree.

Peace
James