What is the church as Jesus intended?

[SCALCO]

What is the church as Jesus intended? Perhaps we could narrow the topic to the original teachings of what the church actually is, as discussed in scripture and then expand from there.

So, what church did Jesus mean when he said, "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector?” - Mt. 18:17.

Define church here.

 

[Yerusalyim]

I think first we do have to come up with an understanding of the word CHURCH. Jesus didn’t found a denomination, he founded a people. He left behind leaders to organize his community under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We frail humans have fracture Chris’ts unity…but, as the Church points out…ALL Christians are part of the ONE CHURCH…the ONE BODY OF CHRIST.

In this particular passage I think “church” means the entire Christian Community as represented by authorities within the local Christian Community.

 

[NotWorthy]

That’s simple. Look to Rome. What we saw in 1st century AD, was the Catholic Church as an infant. What we see now is that same Catholic Church, but at a later stage of development.

The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed…

 

[NotWorthy]

I think first we do have to come up with an understanding of the word CHURCH. Jesus didn’t found a denomination, he founded a people. He left behind leaders to organize his community under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We frail humans have fracture Chris’ts unity…but, as the Church points out…ALL Christians are part of the ONE CHURCH…the ONE BODY OF CHRIST.

In this particular passage I think “church” means the entire Christian Community as represented by authorities within the local Christian Community.

But that “authority” is what makes up the Catholic Church.

One Church, One Baptism, One Body… oh yeah, and One Truth.

 

[SCALCO]

I think first we do have to come up with an understanding of the word CHURCH. Jesus didn’t found a denomination, he founded a people. He left behind leaders to organize his community under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We frail humans have fracture Chris’ts unity…but, as the Church points out…ALL Christians are part of the ONE CHURCH…the ONE BODY OF CHRIST.

In this particular passage I think “church” means the entire Christian Community as represented by authorities within the local Christian Community.

So, it is a unified community with leaders and is guided by the Holy Spirit. That’s a good start.

The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed…

Is the Kingdom of God the same thing as the Church? I am not sure I understand this comparison to a mustard seed.

 

[onenow1]

HI, All
When Jesus appeared to the Apostles Luke 24: 37-43, Jesus, made a point of his physical presence, by eating a piece of fish.
After that he explained that the scriptures had to be fulfilled. He then took them to the mountain and ascended into heaven. He shows the connection of the temporal life and spiritual life in multiple experiances.

1. Incarnation.
2. Transfiguration
3. Resurrection
4. Ascension
   5.Jesus walks on water, Peter also but loses faith. ]

From the old testament of eating the unblemished lamb, to the pure Lamb of God in the Eucharist.

John 6:55-56
For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

The Catholic Church holds all truth even though it does not seem that way sometimes; but thats not the fault of the church, thats the fault of the individuals. Judas comes to mind.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[NotWorthy]

So, it is a unified community with leaders and is guided by the Holy Spirit. That’s a good start.

Is the Kingdom of God the same thing as the Church? I am not sure I understand this comparison to a mustard seed.

Why yes, yes it is!!!

There is a heavenly Kingdom and an earthly Kingdom which will be joined, as described in Revelation 21:1-5!!!

How is the Church like a mustard seed? It started out as a small group of people - 120 people in the Upper Room at Pentecost. Then it sprouted up to include 3000 new people that very day!!!. It grew and grew until it became the 1 billion plus people that it is today!

"What is the kingdom of God like? To what can I compare it? It is like a mustard seed that a person took and planted in the garden. When it was fully grown, it became a large bush and 'the birds of the sky dwelt in its branches.’

 

[SCALCO]

Another post worded the question on Mt. 18 a little differently: To whom and where is Jesus commanding us to “tell”, whom and where has our brother to “listen”?

There’s little or no question that Jesus intended for there to be an organized visible church made up of true believers. The dividing question is mainly on the organization and hierarchy of the church. Is there anything more we can gather from Mt. 18?

Where else can we learn about church hierarchy other than “Peter the Rock”?

I know I have more questions than answers. I am relying on you guys for help.

 

[SCALCO]

How is the Church like a mustard seed? It started out as a small group of people - 120 people in the Upper Room at Pentecost. Then it sprouted up to include 3000 new people that very day!!!. It grew and grew until it became the 1 billion plus people that it is today!

Thanks for the explanation on the mustard seed. It means the church is to grow.

 

[guanophore]

Another post worded the question on Mt. 18 a little differently: To whom and where is Jesus commanding us to “tell”, whom and where has our brother to “listen”?

There’s little or no question that Jesus intended for there to be an organized visible church made up of true believers. The dividing question is mainly on the organization and hierarchy of the church. Is there anything more we can gather from Mt. 18?

Where else can we learn about church hierarchy other than “Peter the Rock”?

I know I have more questions than answers. I am relying on you guys for help.

Much of this instruction is found in the Pastoral letters. Here we read directions from the Apostles to the bishops they appointed. We learn that those in authority are placed there because God has ordained it (just as He did the appointment of Matthias to the Apostles), and that ordination is confirmed by the Apostolic authority, or one the Apostle has ordained. We learn that those in the flock are expected to be subjected to their authority, and to remain in union with their bishop, to pray for the bishop, support him, and that he carries the teaching authority passed down from the Apostle.

 

[NotWorthy]

Thanks for the explanation on the mustard seed. It means the church is to grow.

Yes, it does. The mustard seed is the smallest of seeds, and it grows into one of the largest of bushes.

But also, notice the birds that gather in the branches of the mustard bush (the Church). Birds represent sinners in the Old Testament. So one can see here that Jesus is alluding to some sinful Church leaders in His future Church. But the Church will still continue to grow!!!

 

[Yerusalyim]

The Kingdom of God is more than just the Church, however, unless we give the angels membership in the Church, but yeah, I can agree the point. I think there’s a slightly broader meaning other than just “church” however, one that includes the will and the love of God expanding in the world THROUGH the church.

RE: Peter’s headship, this is seen all throughout the New Testament, and specifically can be cited at the end of the Gospel of John with the “Peter, do you love me more than these” exhortation.

 

[NotWorthy]

"Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers."

 

[Melville]

Hello all you gracious and sincere people,

Regarding the mustard seed analogy . . .

In Matthew 18 the Lord’s gave the last resort as to go to the church, the assembly, regarding a brother who sins. It does not say go to a man but to the assembly.

Regarding the parable of the mustard seed, the birds of the air that nest in its branches should the birds be identified with the emmisaries of Satan in the parable of the sower, which is to say, demons, no? Is the Lord using the words in different ways in His parables? This is the irony, isn’t it, that the small word of the kingdom would grow into something where even the demons would have roosting places?

 

[NotWorthy]

Hello all you gracious and sincere people,

Regarding the mustard seed analogy . . .

In Matthew 18 the Lord’s gave the last resort as to go to the church, the assembly, regarding a brother who sins. It does not say go to a man but to the assembly.

Regarding the parable of the mustard seed, the birds of the air that nest in its branches should the birds be identified with the emmisaries of Satan in the parable of the sower, which is to say, demons, no? Is the Lord using the words in different ways in His parables? This is the irony, isn’t it, that the small word of the kingdom would grow into something where even the demons would have roosting places?

Why of course. The parable of the weeds and the tares follows the same pattern of evil and good co-existing within the kingdom.

But the gates of hell will not prevail. They may choke of some of the seeds before the Word can grow in them, but they won’t prevail over the Church.

Jesus HImself said that He came to heal the sick. Sinners are welcome within the Church, in the hopes that they will repent and turn to the Lord.

AMEN!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

In Matthew 18 the Lord’s gave the last resort as to go to the church, the assembly, regarding a brother who sins. It does not say go to a man but to the assembly.

As a last resort…

I never considered this before. At first, it seems to minimize the role of the Church. But then again, it makes sense. We should turn to the Lord on our own Free Will, with the Lord working in us through our brothers and sisters. If this doesn’t work, only then should we need to resort to Church Authority to show us the error of our ways.

Hmmmmm… this bears further thought.

 

[Melville]

RE: Peter’s headship, this is seen all throughout the New Testament, and specifically can be cited at the end of the Gospel of John with the “Peter, do you love me more than these” exhortation.

There is a different possible take on this verse. At the beginning of the chapter (John 21:3) Peter said, “I’m going fishing.” He went back to his old trade. Then the Lord appeared on the beach and and invited them to a breakfast of bread and fish. “Do you love me more than these?” What is the antecedent of “these”? Did He mean more than the other disciples or more than the fish? I am not sure that the Lord was comparing Peter to the other disciples and not possibly referring to Peter’s old livelihood.

Peter certainly had prominence up until Acts 12, though I am not at all sure these equals headship, when the focus shifted over to Paul. After this and for the rest of the New Testament I cannot see evidence either of headship or prominence for Peter.

Nowhere is he described as head in Acts or the Epistles. Paul calls him the Apostle to the circumcison. Peter calls himself an apostle and an elder.

The only anecdote about Peter after Acts 12 that I can think of appears in Galatians and Paul finds himself having to openly chastize him. One would frankly expect more firm evidence of his headhsip, such as having been looked to for dispensation of doctrine and exercising discipline.

In all honestly, isn’t “all throughout the New Testament” something of an overstatement?

 

[SCALCO]

Much of this instruction is found in the Pastoral letters. Here we read directions from the Apostles to the bishops they appointed. We learn that those in authority are placed there because God has ordained it (just as He did the appointment of Matthias to the Apostles), and that ordination is confirmed by the Apostolic authority, or one the Apostle has ordained. We learn that those in the flock are expected to be subjected to their authority, and to remain in union with their bishop, to pray for the bishop, support him, and that he carries the teaching authority passed down from the Apostle.

I plan to look at these letters in more depth. First, I wanted to see what we could learn in scripture, and go from there.

 

[SCALCO]

HI, All
When Jesus appeared to the Apostles Luke 24: 37-43, Jesus, made a point of his physical presence, by eating a piece of fish.
After that he explained that the scriptures had to be fulfilled. He then took them to the mountain and ascended into heaven. He shows the connection of the temporal life and spiritual life in multiple experiances.

1. Incarnation.
2. Transfiguration
3. Resurrection
4. Ascension
   5.Jesus walks on water, Peter also but loses faith. ]

From the old testament of eating the unblemished lamb, to the pure Lamb of God in the Eucharist.

John 6:55-56
For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

The Catholic Church holds all truth even though it does not seem that way sometimes; but thats not the fault of the church, thats the fault of the individuals. Judas comes to mind.

Peace, OneNow1

I think this is a nice overview.

 

[SCALCO]

"Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers."

By the way, I think this verse is an another place showing Peter’s prominence and would agree with Yerusalyim that Peter’s headship is seen throughout the New Testament. When I first started reading and understanding Mt. 16, it seemed very plain to me that Peter is the Rock. Honestly, I find it difficult to understand how others can interpret this differently, so that’s why we have to discuss this further. However, at the moment, I would like to continue exploring scripture to understand the church hierarchy. We know the church has an authority, so logically some kind of organizational hierarchy is needed. Jesus chose the Apostles as the first leaders. Let’s study what’s next…