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Kullervo
Guest
How do we know that the Catholic Church is the Church established by Lord Jesus Christ rather than his Church being Christianity as a whole?
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Bon_Croix
Guest
We know b/c it is scriptural and it is rooted in tradition (succession). Just like there is a societal process for you to receive what belonged to your parents when they pass away; there has existed a societal process for the Church to pass on what it received from Jesus.
The caveat is that the Holy Spirit is involved in the Church process but not in the other process.
The caveat is that the Holy Spirit is involved in the Church process but not in the other process.
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Bon_Croix
Guest
Remember, Jesus took the Apostles aside --in private-- to explain the meaning of his teachings (ex: his parables) which were issued publicly. He did not explain them to all peoples publicly.
What the Apostles received has been guarded or held by the Church through Apostolic Succession.
What the Apostles received has been guarded or held by the Church through Apostolic Succession.
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Bon_Croix
Guest
Jesus gave the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter (this is in scripture). The “keys” represent authority (See Isaiah 22) in the Kingdom. It’s like the “keys to the city”.
We are subjects of a King–Jesus of Nazareth. His prime minister has the “keys”, and his title is Pope. Just like your city has a mayor.
We are subjects of a King–Jesus of Nazareth. His prime minister has the “keys”, and his title is Pope. Just like your city has a mayor.
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Inquiry
Guest
It is the Church as a whole. That doesn’t mean the schisms were ever supposed to happen or that the continued divide is in any way a good thing.
It’s much the same as if Christ had given you a really big mirror, but you accidentally dropped it and a chunk of it shattered into lots of pieces. The littlest pieces would technically still be part of the mirror, and would reflect, but would tend to distort. Some would even lose their backing and though they claimed to be of the mirror, they wouldn’t be anymore. The larger pieces would still function reasonably well, and would be recognizable as part of the mirror. They’d be harder to use and prone to taking further damage, though. The largest piece* (through grace, mayhaps) would still function completely and though damaged would be in no way diminished.
Now you could throw out the broken pieces if you wanted to, but it would be far, far better to reassemble the mirror. (Ignoring for the moment that in real life you can’t actually get rid of the cracks when you reassemble a mirror).
*Or pieces, depending on how you want to handle the ones that maintain Apostolic Succession.
It’s much the same as if Christ had given you a really big mirror, but you accidentally dropped it and a chunk of it shattered into lots of pieces. The littlest pieces would technically still be part of the mirror, and would reflect, but would tend to distort. Some would even lose their backing and though they claimed to be of the mirror, they wouldn’t be anymore. The larger pieces would still function reasonably well, and would be recognizable as part of the mirror. They’d be harder to use and prone to taking further damage, though. The largest piece* (through grace, mayhaps) would still function completely and though damaged would be in no way diminished.
Now you could throw out the broken pieces if you wanted to, but it would be far, far better to reassemble the mirror. (Ignoring for the moment that in real life you can’t actually get rid of the cracks when you reassemble a mirror).
*Or pieces, depending on how you want to handle the ones that maintain Apostolic Succession.
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Bon_Croix
Guest
If I recall, the Catholic Church views those small shards of the mirror as those “not yet in FULL communion” with her.
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Thom18
Guest
How can the Church be “Christianity as a whole” when there are competing doctrines? Jesus came and taught Truth, and I would not dare say (as an example) that He is equally as happy with those who walk away from His teachings as He is with those who have decided to keep them.
We know that the Catholic Church Is His Church because it is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. We are the only Christians who can claim to have all four of these markers which are laid out in the Nicene and Apostolic Creeds.
We know that the Catholic Church Is His Church because it is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. We are the only Christians who can claim to have all four of these markers which are laid out in the Nicene and Apostolic Creeds.
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Bon_Croix
Guest
We believe in ONe, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. But, that is not all that we believe.
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Fauken
Guest
You do realize that every Catholic receives the Holy Spirit at confirmation, right? That you don’t have to be into charismatic spirituality to receive Him?As a charismatic Catholic I understand the bible better than those who did not receive the holy spirit.
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Bon_Croix
Guest
I’m sure he realizes that. He probably received a second helping at some point. AKA…a special blessing or a privilege from the Church.
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Fauken
Guest
I’ve never heard of such a thing. What might that blessing/privilege be that the Church gives?AKA…a special blessing or a privilege from the Church.
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Bon_Croix
Guest
Read up on Private Revelation or read Acts of the Apostles.
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Fauken
Guest
Does not require my belief, and so I find it very hard to believe that the Church would be providing a blessing stemming from it.Private Revelation
It’s also my understanding that the Holy Spirit is the one who grants charisms, and that the Church does not provide them. I have never heard of the Church granting someone, say, the charism of speaking in tongues.Acts of the Apostles.
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Bon_Croix
Guest
Yet you know that the Church acts as an intercessor. And that the Church can intercess for the Holy Spirit to bless an individual with a charism.
So, if an individual prays to a Saint or to the Holy Spirit, the church acts as an intercessor in regard to those prayers. And that the act of intercession is a blessing.
So, if an individual prays to a Saint or to the Holy Spirit, the church acts as an intercessor in regard to those prayers. And that the act of intercession is a blessing.
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Fauken
Guest
An intercession is not the same as granting. You said it was “from the Church”. I imagine there is a rite for it then. I’d like to see it.Yet you know that the Church acts as an intercessor. And that the Church can intercess for the Holy Spirit to bless an individual with a charism.
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Bon_Croix
Guest
I didn’t say it was a “rite”. But, I agree with your comments.
Yet, I’d add that the Holy Spirit was given to the Church after Jesus’s Ascension.
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is subject to Jesus?
Yet, I’d add that the Holy Spirit was given to the Church after Jesus’s Ascension.
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is subject to Jesus?
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De_Maria
Guest
The Catholic Church is described in the New Testament, therefore it must be the Church established by Jesus Christ. AND, lest we forget, what we don’t find is any of the Protestant denominations there mentioned. Nor any of their doctrines.
First, Jesus Christ appointed a Pastor as head of the entire Church:
John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
I see only a few Churches with such a Pastor. Further, Jesus Christ said that the Pastor over His Church would be infallible:
Matthew 16:17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
The list of Churches accept this teaching gets smaller. Certainly, all Protestant denominations can now be eliminated.
cont’d
First, Jesus Christ appointed a Pastor as head of the entire Church:
John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
I see only a few Churches with such a Pastor. Further, Jesus Christ said that the Pastor over His Church would be infallible:
Matthew 16:17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
The list of Churches accept this teaching gets smaller. Certainly, all Protestant denominations can now be eliminated.
cont’d
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De_Maria
Guest
cont’d
Jesus Christ not only said that the Pastor was infallible but Scripture describes the Church as infallible:
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
The list remains the same, but now I can certainly eliminate all Protestant denominations.
Back to Matt 16:18, Scripture says that Jesus Christ established one Church. History shows that all the Churches sprang from the Church which is frequently described as the Mother Church. The Catholic Church.
So, even using just a few verses we can eliminate the Protestants. None of their denominations even come close to being in Scripture. But we can continue to find Catholic indicators throughout the Bible:
The Church which is infallible (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10).
The Church which is united (Eph 4:5).
The doctrines of the Catholic Church which are distinctive from other churches:
Purgatory (1 Cor 3:15).
Eucharist (1 Cor 11:23-27).
Communion of Saints (Rom 12:12-20).
The Mass and the necessity to attend (Heb 10:25-31).
The Sacrament of Confession (Heb 13:17).
The Sacrament of Holy Orders (1 Tim 4:14).
The Sacrament of Baptism (Titus 3:5).
Justification and salvation by faith and works (Rom 2:1-13).
And we find that the Protestant doctrinal pillars all contradict Scripture. For instance:
Sola Scriptura contradicts 2 Thess 2:15
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Sola Fide contradicts
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
OSAS contradicts Heb 6:4-6
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Every Protestant doctrine which contradicts the Catholic Church also contradicts the Word of God in the Bible.
So, the fact that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church is recorded in the New Testament. And Protestants nor their doctrines are anywhere to be found in those venerable pages.
Jesus Christ not only said that the Pastor was infallible but Scripture describes the Church as infallible:
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
The list remains the same, but now I can certainly eliminate all Protestant denominations.
Back to Matt 16:18, Scripture says that Jesus Christ established one Church. History shows that all the Churches sprang from the Church which is frequently described as the Mother Church. The Catholic Church.
So, even using just a few verses we can eliminate the Protestants. None of their denominations even come close to being in Scripture. But we can continue to find Catholic indicators throughout the Bible:
The Church which is infallible (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10).
The Church which is united (Eph 4:5).
The doctrines of the Catholic Church which are distinctive from other churches:
Purgatory (1 Cor 3:15).
Eucharist (1 Cor 11:23-27).
Communion of Saints (Rom 12:12-20).
The Mass and the necessity to attend (Heb 10:25-31).
The Sacrament of Confession (Heb 13:17).
The Sacrament of Holy Orders (1 Tim 4:14).
The Sacrament of Baptism (Titus 3:5).
Justification and salvation by faith and works (Rom 2:1-13).
And we find that the Protestant doctrinal pillars all contradict Scripture. For instance:
Sola Scriptura contradicts 2 Thess 2:15
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Sola Fide contradicts
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
OSAS contradicts Heb 6:4-6
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Every Protestant doctrine which contradicts the Catholic Church also contradicts the Word of God in the Bible.
So, the fact that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church is recorded in the New Testament. And Protestants nor their doctrines are anywhere to be found in those venerable pages.
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Fauken
Guest
Insofar as the Holy Spirit proceeds from Him, but they both still share one divine will.Yet, I’d add that the Holy Spirit was given to the Church after Jesus’s Ascension.
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is subject to Jesus?
It still doesn’t make sense. The Church has a rite for the Consecration of Virgins, something which is not a Sacrament (although that was debated at one point) nor a charism, but charisms, extraordinary gifts from God, do not have a rite? The Church consecrates virginity but does not grant charisms which it apparently has the power to do?
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