What is the Church's position on the Intersexed and Transsexed?

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Thank you so much, your cogent explanation was as clear as it could be.

I don’t consider myself worthy of the name “Christian”, as I lack faith. I have made two vows in my life though, ones that I take seriously. As seriously as life and death.

One was my marriage vow. There was a clause about “in sickness and in health”, with no cavils or exceptions made about which medical conditions counted, and which did not.

The second was the vow I took at my son’s christening, to bring him up in the Catholic faith.

My marriage is chaste: my partner is not a practicing Catholic, unlike my mother or sister, yet we cannot bring ourselves to break our vow, whether the Church allows it or not. We have no intention of troubling them with the question, living as sisters more than anything else, and both devoted to the son whose birth was so unlikely.

That some people, people who are well-meaning and trying to do the Church’s bidding, don’t understand, misinterpret, and in general don’t follow your line of reasoning is regrettable. It’s also inconvenient for me personally. Every few months, I must travel hundreds of kilometres to see an endocrinologist, because those nearby won’t treat “people like me” on religious grounds. I’ve been ordered to divorce by a senior governmental official or face withdrawal of human rights, and told to withdraw my son from his Catholic school, the usual that many Intersexed people face, Far less than most, in fact.

That though, while upsetting, is not really important. In this life, we all have to suffer some injustices, some great, some small. What is important is that I should do the right thing, as I see it. That means not just “following my conscience”, because I’m acutely aware of my own fallibility, but making my best efforts to ascertain what is the Right. Then have the gumption to do it, or give it my best attempt, considering that I’m all too fallible.

As for others in the Church who are not Doctors Juris Canonici, and who persecute me out of the best of motives, how can I blame them? Someone who went through far worse said “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do”. If someone who is Perfect can say that, when faced with worse, how can someone as imperfect as I am not follow that example as best she may?

Your argument is impeccable. I cannot fault your logic, and it concords with such other research as I’d done. It makes sense, and I need little convincing. I was afraid though that my tentative conclusions might have been due to me seeing what I wanted to see, not what is.

Again,my thanks. You exemplify 1 Corinthians 13, a text I try in my faltering way to live by.

May I ask you when you pray for me to redirect your prayers to my son, and also to the many many Intersexed people who have been treated far, far worse than I have. That’s almost all of them.

For those whose bodies were mutilated by well-meaning surgeons when they were infants.
For those forbidden from ever seeing their children again.
For those recovering from rape and brain-injury from assault.
For those shunned by their parents and their Church.
For those dying because medical treatment was refused to them.
And especially for those in the depths of despair who are in danger of suicide.
If I am worthy of a scintilla of blessing, please re-direct it to them. Their need is so much greater than mine, I’ve been already blessed far more than I deserve.
 
I’m not familiar with Roman canon, so I’m very surprised. Maybe I’m too American.
First, understand that the law of the Church is based on European code, not the common law as found in the US and in Australia. This is important because it gives us a different legal mindset than we are used to. Church rules are written broadly to encompass the largest number of people. But when legal anomalies arise, they are dealt with either by specific exception, or by allowing there to be pastoral provisions made for those for whom the law doesn’t fit.
So there are different standards for different people? Forgive me for jumping to conclusions, but isn’t that the very definition of hypocrisy? That is, God created everyone’s sex except intersex people.
 
Thank you so much, your cogent explanation was as clear as it could be.

I don’t consider myself worthy of the name “Christian”, as I lack faith. I have made two vows in my life though, ones that I take seriously. As seriously as life and death.

One was my marriage vow. There was a clause about “in sickness and in health”, with no cavils or exceptions made about which medical conditions counted, and which did not.

The second was the vow I took at my son’s christening, to bring him up in the Catholic faith.

My marriage is chaste: my partner is not a practicing Catholic, unlike my mother or sister, yet we cannot bring ourselves to break our vow, whether the Church allows it or not. We have no intention of troubling them with the question, living as sisters more than anything else, and both devoted to the son whose birth was so unlikely.

That some people, people who are well-meaning and trying to do the Church’s bidding, don’t understand, misinterpret, and in general don’t follow your line of reasoning is regrettable. It’s also inconvenient for me personally. Every few months, I must travel hundreds of kilometres to see an endocrinologist, because those nearby won’t treat “people like me” on religious grounds. I’ve been ordered to divorce by a senior governmental official or face withdrawal of human rights, and told to withdraw my son from his Catholic school, the usual that many Intersexed people face, Far less than most, in fact.

That though, while upsetting, is not really important. In this life, we all have to suffer some injustices, some great, some small. What is important is that I should do the right thing, as I see it. That means not just “following my conscience”, because I’m acutely aware of my own fallibility, but making my best efforts to ascertain what is the Right. Then have the gumption to do it, or give it my best attempt, considering that I’m all too fallible.

As for others in the Church who are not Doctors Juris Canonici, and who persecute me out of the best of motives, how can I blame them? Someone who went through far worse said “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do”. If someone who is Perfect can say that, when faced with worse, how can someone as imperfect as I am not follow that example as best she may?

Your argument is impeccable. I cannot fault your logic, and it concords with such other research as I’d done. It makes sense, and I need little convincing. I was afraid though that my tentative conclusions might have been due to me seeing what I wanted to see, not what is.

Again,my thanks. You exemplify 1 Corinthians 13, a text I try in my faltering way to live by.

May I ask you when you pray for me to redirect your prayers to my son, and also to the many many Intersexed people who have been treated far, far worse than I have. That’s almost all of them.

For those whose bodies were mutilated by well-meaning surgeons when they were infants.
For those forbidden from ever seeing their children again.
For those recovering from rape and brain-injury from assault.
For those shunned by their parents and their Church.
For those dying because medical treatment was refused to them.
And especially for those in the depths of despair who are in danger of suicide.
If I am worthy of a scintilla of blessing, please re-direct it to them. Their need is so much greater than mine, I’ve been already blessed far more than I deserve.
Zoe, I just want to say that your posts have moved me to tears, and also educated me immensely. For someone who has no specific faith, you have more faith than many of the Christians I know. Know that my prayers are with you, and everyone you request I pray for, most especially the son who is so close to your heart. God bless, Zoe.
 
However, all that aside, what exactly is Church teaching on the subject? This is especially important in view of His Holiness’s recent statements demanding respect for Church teaching that there is only male and female, and that the idea of “gender” rather than strict corporeal sex at birth is a danger to Humanity and contradicts God’s natural order.
Human beings are not suppose to be classified according to sexual orientations or inclinations. We are simply either a male or a female.

Even if an individual seems on the surface to have two sex organs, it could be determined whether the individual is a male or a female. When the individual has the internal reproductive organ of a female, such as uterus, ovary, etc., then surely the individual is female, not male, even if the individual has confusing external organs.

On the other hand, if the individual does not have a uterus, ovary, etc, then the individual is male. This is as regards human beings. No one is looked down. And no one should be given special treatment. Everyone is equal before the eyes of God and the laws of the land. Chasity is a law for both male and female.
 
Human beings are not suppose to be classified according to sexual orientations or inclinations. We are simply either a male or a female.

Even if an individual seems on the surface to have two sex organs, it could be determined whether the individual is a male or a female. When the individual has the internal reproductive organ of a female, such as uterus, ovary, etc., then surely the individual is female, not male, even if the individual has confusing external organs.

On the other hand, if the individual does not have a uterus, ovary, etc, then the individual is male. This is as regards human beings. No one is looked down. And no one should be given special treatment. Everyone is equal before the eyes of God and the laws of the land. Chasity is a law for both male and female.
Did you read all Zoe’s posts? She has a son, whom she FATHERED, yet she is, now, female, as a NATURAL occurence. Clearly, your simplistic answer is not always the case. She explained genetic abnormalities that DO make someone, truly, neither male nor female. Chastity has nothing to with it. In fact, she even explained her marriage is continent at this point.
 
Just because it’s written in (the Bible) there doesn’t mean the Church has an official position on the matter.
**The Bible IS the official position of the Church!

As the Bible is tought by the Church per procurationem of Jesus Christ (Matthew 16,18), the Church has for every single verse of the Bible, books of explanations. The fundament of every such item, is and will forever remain: The Holy Bible.

Whoever daubts that, is no longer member of the Christian world-parish and not Catholic**

Explanation of the Word >Pentateuch<
it’s part of the Old Testament; the 5 Books of Moses, meaning “5” - in Hebrew “Chumasch”.
We call the 1rst Book Genesis, 2nd Book Exodus, 3rd Book Leviticus, 4th Numeri and 5th Deuteronomion
 
QUOTE=agangbern;4857105]Even if an individual seems on the surface to have two sex organs, it could be determined whether the individual is a male or a female. When the individual has the internal reproductive organ of a female, such as uterus, ovary, etc., then surely the individual is female, not male, even if the individual has confusing external organs.

On the other hand, if the individual does not have a uterus, ovary, etc, then the individual is male.

By what authority? Who says whether true sex is determined by genes or gonads or genitals? I have heard other Christians say that only chromosomes matter while others say only genitals matter. Others say the brain. And you say gonads? Why can’t we just face the fact that some people do not fit into the categories of male OR female? It’s pretty obvious to me.
 
I say while all those play a part more or less… The most imoportant part is the part of the brain where identity and the soul reside. Anything else would equate us to mere animals. Yes I am not even saying the brain, I am saying a very specific part of the brain. Enough with 1940’s science already!
 
Did you read all Zoe’s posts? She has a son, whom she FATHERED, yet she is, now, female, as a NATURAL occurence. Clearly, your simplistic answer is not always the case. She explained genetic abnormalities that DO make someone, truly, neither male nor female. Chastity has nothing to with it. In fact, she even explained her marriage is continent at this point.
It is not simplistic. It is the truth. If she is now female, therefore you mean she has a uterus and an ovary, right? Therefore, even if she has a male external organ and was able to begot a child, the fact that she has a uterus and an ovary, that classifies her into female. Although I am still not convinced that truly she has a uterus and an ovary and at the same time begot a child.

When we talk of sex, chastity is always a law in the Church which cannot simply be ignored. And it is applicable to all both male and female.
 
By what authority? Who says whether true sex is determined by genes or gonads or genitals? I have heard other Christians say that only chromosomes matter while others say only genitals matter. Others say the brain. And you say gonads? Why can’t we just face the fact that some people do not fit into the categories of male OR female? It’s pretty obvious to me.
There is no way we can escape from the truth that God created only a male and a female. That is God’s authority.

I have given you the basic distinction. Chromosomes often accompany these distinctions, but not necessarily. God did not declare during creation that a male must have xy chromosomes and a female must have xx chromosomes. Man alone, or the scientists, by their close observations made the general conclusion that a male has xy chromosomes and the female has xx chromosomes. But now they are starting to realize that this is not all the time true. For there are females who may not necessarily have only xx chromosomes.

During creation, God made man male and female with the command, “Go to the world and multiply…” Clearly, their being male and female is directly related to reproduction and not to chromosomes and others.
 
There is no way we can escape from the truth that God created only a male and a female.
That’s not true. Just look at Zoe. Either 1) God does not create every element of sex (genes, gonads, etc) or 2) God creates some people with some male elements and some female elements.

But you didn’t answer my question. By who’s authority do you say that testes determine someone’s sex, not genes or genitals? The Bible does not say so, neither does the pope, Christian Tradition has no consensus, and the Church at large disagrees. Why makes you right and other Christians wrong?

My opinion is that if an intersex person has a true sex, it is impossible to know it.
 
agangburn,

Not to put to fine a point on it, but unless you can provide some creds for being able to prove that you in fact know what you are talking about (as Zoe has obviously done her homework), I think you are being woefully simplistic.

We have babies born with extra fingers, with extra limbs and other parts, with no brain, with defective hearts, lungs, kidneys, and other organs, with the inability to see and/or hear, and genetic disorders that affect mental capacity or growth capacity, and with all manner of genetic and biological anomalies. These anomalies cover the full range of human biology - physical, mental, and genetic.

Why is it such a stretch for you to accept that we have people who are born with both sets of male and female parts, with genetic anomalies that make one’s gender unclear, and with all the other permutations that Zoe has so clearly explained? God didn’t declare at creation about chromosomes or anything else for that matter. He also didn’t explain why he created us with organs that are serve no biological function (appendix), or why I can roll my tongue and my husband can’t, why I’m dreadfully nearsighted, or why we bear children that need a heart transplants or have cells that mutate into cancer during their first year of life.

God created us as deeply loved creatures. But due to the Fall we are neither physically or spiritually perfect. And frankly, it isn’t for you to judge whether Zoe’s biological struggles match either your personal interpretation of scripture, or your personal definition of gender distinctions that seem to have limited scientific or theological foundation. You are not her priest, her bishop, or her spiritual director. We don’t penalize people for having cancer, or for needing a gallbladder removed, for being blind or deaf, or for having down’s syndrome. Zoe did not CHOOSE to have her biology go haywire on her. It just did. And frankly her condition calls for the same amount of love, support, and compassion we show our brothers and sisters who are also faced with serious medical difficulties.
 
It is not simplistic. It is the truth. If she is now female, therefore you mean she has a uterus and an ovary, right? Therefore, even if she has a male external organ and was able to begot a child, the fact that she has a uterus and an ovary, that classifies her into female. Although I am still not convinced that truly she has a uterus and an ovary and at the same time begot a child.

When we talk of sex, chastity is always a law in the Church which cannot simply be ignored. And it is applicable to all both male and female.
So, as a woman, I can produce sperm and father a child? Right. Because that’s your typical circumstance. :rolleyes: Frankly, it doesn’t matter if you are “convinced”- you are a random poster on the internet. But the Church does not speak on this matter directly, as the canon lawyer pointed out earlier on, so who are you to say that it DEFINITELY doesn’t happen?

And, again, where is the poster not being chaste? She is!
 
So, as a woman, I can produce sperm and father a child? Right. Because that’s your typical circumstance. :rolleyes: Frankly, it doesn’t matter if you are “convinced”- you are a random poster on the internet. But the Church does not speak on this matter directly, as the canon lawyer pointed out earlier on, so who are you to say that it DEFINITELY doesn’t happen?

And, again, where is the poster not being chaste? She is!
Who said that a poster here is not chaste? Sure, I did not accuse anyone here of being unchaste ! If you read again that post where I mentioned it, you would notice that it relates to the equality of human beings before God and before the laws of the land. And chastity is part of those laws. Don’t imagine ahead demonstrating defensiveness about the law of chastity. All are equal, I said.

“*So, as a woman, I can produce sperm and father a child? Right.”
  • What are you trying to say here? You seem to intentionally evade my point. My point is: God created man as male and female, and commanded them to "Go to the world and multiply…" By that command, God is telling us that the “classification” of humans as male and female is directly related to reproduction. And what is the most basic part for reproduction whereby only a female has? Is it not the ovary and the uterus? Therefore, in extreme case of doubt, let us allow the individual to be medically examined to see whether the individual has ovary and uterus. If none, then we say that the individual is male.
Let us not make clear and simple things complicated and confusing.

It does not matter whether the individual is intersexed or transexed. ["]Here]("http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p6.htm#III[/url) is what the Church says about humans:

369 Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. “Being man” or “being woman” is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator.240 Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity “in the image of God”. In their “being-man” and “being-woman”, they reflect the Creator’s wisdom and goodness."vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p6.htm#III

I don’t know what you mean by “random poster”. But whether I am a random poster in the internet or not, it is nothing of your concern. The internet is not yours anyway.😉

Peace!
 
agangburn,

Not to put to fine a point on it, but unless you can provide some creds for being able to prove that you in fact know what you are talking about (as Zoe has obviously done her homework), I think you are being woefully simplistic…
That’s not true. Just look at Zoe. Either 1) God does not create every element of sex (genes, gonads, etc) or 2) God creates some people with some male elements and some female elements.
.
In reply to both of you, please read post#34.
 
Who said that a poster here is not chaste? Sure, I did not accuse anyone here of being unchaste ! If you read again that post where I mentioned it, you would notice that it relates to the equality of human beings before God and before the laws of the land. And chastity is part of those laws. Don’t imagine ahead demonstrating defensiveness about the law of chastity. All are equal, I said.

“*So, as a woman, I can produce sperm and father a child? Right.”
  • What are you trying to say here? You seem to intentionally evade my point. My point is: God created man as male and female, and commanded them to "Go to the world and multiply…" By that command, God is telling us that the “classification” of humans as male and female is directly related to reproduction. And what is the most basic part for reproduction whereby only a female has? Is it not the ovary and the uterus? Therefore, in extreme case of doubt, let us allow the individual to be medically examined to see whether the individual has ovary and uterus. If none, then we say that the individual is male.
Let us not make clear and simple things complicated and confusing.

It does not matter whether the individual is intersexed or transexed. ["]Here]("http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p6.htm#III[/url) is what the Church says about humans:

369 Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. “Being man” or “being woman” is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator.240 Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity “in the image of God”. In their “being-man” and “being-woman”, they reflect the Creator’s wisdom and goodness."vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p6.htm#III

I don’t know what you mean by “random poster”. But whether I am a random poster in the internet or not, it is nothing of your concern. The internet is not yours anyway.😉

Peace!
Did I say the internet was mine? You are speaking of how God created the world- BEFORE the fall! We are FALLEN creatures now, and genetic abnormalities DO happen! If someone, instead of being xx, or xy, instead is xxy or xyx or xyy, or xxx, or however else the combination could present itself, these are genetic defects that effect the reproductive organs. And you are missing my point. Zoe fathered a child, yet she is female. She has BOTH SETS OF SEX ORGANS, and her male parts worked well enough for her to produce sperm! So, no, it’s not as simple as “penis is male” “uterus and ovaries are female.” Some individuals have BOTH, to varying degrees of functionality. I suggest you look into the science of it before you go spouting off about something the Church, by the mouth of a canon lawyer, DOES NOT SPEAK ON, presumably BECAUSE it is so complex.

It DOES matter if the individual is intersexed, and you are being unjust to say it doesn’t. You’ve come in here practically accusing Zoe of lying, or deliberately withholding information (you said you “weren’t convinced” she is really female), and make it sound as though it is Zoe’s CHOICE to be intersexed. What about sterile individuals? Are they not male, or female, since you say gender is tied in directly with reproduction? Are you a vegetarian, since that is how God intended things before the fall? Even Jesus talks about those being “eunuchs from birth.” Funny, Jesus acknowledged there were gender/sex anomalies, yet you can’t. I’ll go with the Word, who created all things.
 
There are those who say that men are born men, women are born women, and Intersex and Transsexuality are illusory.

On TV there was the story of a beautiful woman (to all appearances) whose period had not started by the time she entered college.

Genetic testing revealed her to be XY–the male genotype. Therefore she was sterile.

BUT apparently she didn’t have the timely wash of hormones in utero, so the male characteristics did not develop.

What’s weird–though she has always thought of herself as female, her home state of Texas will not allow her to marry the man of her choice, because Texas state law defines sex as strictly genotype.
 
There are those who say that men are born men, women are born women, and Intersex and Transsexuality are illusory.

On TV there was the story of a beautiful woman (to all appearances) whose period had not started by the time she entered college.

Genetic testing revealed her to be XY–the male genotype. Therefore she was sterile.

BUT apparently she didn’t have the timely wash of hormones in utero, so the male characteristics did not develop.

What’s weird–though she has always thought of herself as female, her home state of Texas will not allow her to marry the man of her choice, because Texas state law defines sex as strictly genotype.
So she has a uterus, but the XY genotype, and no menstrual period? Agangbern, are you paying attention?
 
So she has a uterus, but the XY genotype, and no menstrual period? Agangbern, are you paying attention?
You want to tell me that all stories on TV are true? No savienu. A story to be told on TV is not a guarantee that the story is true! A story on TV not backed up by proof, yes you pay attention to it. Pay attention to hearsay.

And how is it unjust if the transexed or intersexed are looked upon with equal dignity as all other human beings? No, savienu. On the contrary, not treating them equal in dignity with other humans certainly is what is unjust!
 
Did I say the internet was mine? You are speaking of how God created the world- BEFORE the fall! We are FALLEN creatures now, and genetic abnormalities DO happen! If someone, instead of being xx, or xy, instead is xxy or xyx or xyy, or xxx, or however else the combination could present itself, these are genetic defects that effect the reproductive organs.
How would they affect the ovary and the uterus?
And you are missing my point. Zoe fathered a child, yet she is female. She has BOTH SETS OF SEX ORGANS, and her male parts worked well enough for her to produce sperm!
Does he have an ovary and uterus?
So, no, it’s not as simple as “penis is male” “uterus and ovaries are female.” Some individuals have BOTH, to varying degrees of functionality. I suggest you look into the science of it before you go spouting off about something the Church, by the mouth of a canon lawyer, DOES NOT SPEAK ON, presumably BECAUSE it is so complex.
You who allege that there is a male (one who begot a child) who also has an ovary and uterus capable of bearing a child, you who allege that is the one who has the duty to prove that here. Not I. So, quote here that science that you claim to be and give the link to it.
It DOES matter if the individual is intersexed, and you are being unjust to say it doesn’t. You’ve come in here practically accusing Zoe of lying, or deliberately withholding information (you said you “weren’t convinced” she is really female), and make it sound as though it is Zoe’s CHOICE to be intersexed.
You are jumping to conclusions without foundation, savienu! Where did I accuse Zoe of lying? Never, savienu. For to doubt what one says does not necessarily mean we are accusing him of being a liar! No, savienu. It simply means we need more proof of what he says. Did it really sound “as though it is Zoes’ choice to be intersexed”? Where is that sound, savienu?
What about sterile individuals? Are they not male, or female, since you say gender is tied in directly with reproduction?
It was clear to you that I used the word reproduction specifically in relation to the presence or not of ovary and uterus to settle the issue of whether an individual is male or female. Only up to that aspect. Therefore, even if the individual is sterile for so long as he is male, he is male.And if she is female then she is female even if she is unable to bear a child.
Are you a vegetarian, since that is how God intended things before the fall?
When and where did God tell you that?
Even Jesus talks about those being “eunuchs from birth.” Funny, Jesus acknowledged there were gender/sex anomalies, yet you can’t. I’ll go with the Word, who created all things.
But Jesus did not raise any doubt as to whether the eunuchs are male or female. For all you know, eunuchs are males.
Here:

eunuch
One entry found.
Main Entry:
eu•nuch
Pronunciation:
\ˈyü-nək, -nik\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English eunuk, from Latin eunuchus, from Greek eunouchos, from eunē bed + echein to have, have charge of — more at scheme
Date:
15th century
1 : a castrated man placed in charge of a harem or employed as a chamberlain in a palace 2 : a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals 3 : one that lacks virility or power
— eu•nuch•ism -nə-ˌki-zəm, -ni-\ noun
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eunuch
 
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