What is the Church's position on the Separation of Church and State?

[DallasTexas]

What is the Church’s position on the Separation of Church and State?

My poor research skills do not allow me to dive deeper into this subject.

Can anyone elaborate?

Thank you.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Just a guess, but I would assume that any Church would be crazy not to be for it. I mean the seperation of Church and State is basically saying that a government may not create or control a religion or its beliefs. England is/was the prime example of this I believe. The government of england was the reason that we have the KJV of the Bible, they are why we have I think it’s episcopalian? could be wrong there.

I hate the fact that the government has the whole tax thing hanging over the Church’s heads. If they show support for any candidate they lose their immunity from tax’s.

 

[bbarrick8383]

BTW, I’m not far from you. If you have not already, you should take a drive up to Lindsay, TX and Muenster, TX. Would be a little over an hour, maybe an hour and a half to get there. They have a beautiful Church built in 1914 I think. It is amazing. Have not been in the Church in Muenster, but it looks really nice as well. If you have a german heritage you will appreciate it even more.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

What is the Church’s position on the Separation of Church and State?

My poor research skills do not allow me to dive deeper into this subject.

Can anyone elaborate?

Thank you.

they should remain separate (as separate as possible so those of us with common sense can get oust this silliness from our society at some point). I think we should be focusing on life extending medical research, stem cell technology (with few boundaries), organ cloning, and so on. With all you irrational zealots who believe in this invisible friend our progress is impeded (and to make it worse your invisible friend doesn’t want us mastering our biology or our universe, which is our inherent nature). I find little utility for religion, beyond its ability to make the unintelligent and less endowed among us behave a little better.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I hate the fact that the government has the whole tax thing hanging over the Church’s heads. If they show support for any candidate they lose their immunity from tax’s.

as it should be. We don’t really want people who believe in talking snakes promulgating our laws and government policy.

 

[bbarrick8383]

they should remain separate (as separate as possible so those of us with common sense can get oust this silliness from our society at some point). I think we should be focusing on life extending medical research, stem cell technology (with few boundaries), organ cloning, and so on. With all you irrational zealots who believe in this invisible friend our progress is impeded (and to make it worse your invisible friend doesn’t want us mastering our biology or our universe, which is our inherent nature). I find little utility for religion, beyond its ability to make the unintelligent and less endowed among us behave a little better.

How fortunate for you. Considering the fact there are several billion people on this planet who have a religion, how did you become more intelligent and “endowed” than so many? Wait, since we have such a well “endowed” genius on the forums, I would like to take the time to congratulate you on your super-human intelligence. May I ask, have you won a Nobel for anything? You must have many, many degrees under your belt, I should probably call you Dr. Humble in Doubt right?

 

[bbarrick8383]

as it should be. We don’t really want people who believe in talking snakes promulgating our laws and government policy.

Yea, there are a whole 10 hippies fried from shrooms and acid in Arizona doing that. I agree with you there.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

How fortunate for you. Considering the fact there are several billion people on this planet who have a religion, how did you become more intelligent and “endowed” than so many? Wait, since we have such a well “endowed” genius on the forums, I would like to take the time to congratulate you on your super-human intelligence. May I ask, have you won a Nobel for anything? You must have many, many degrees under your belt, I should probably call you Dr. Humble in Doubt right?

I have three degrees actually, one masters and one professional degree. However, I’m not a doctor (not yet anyway … but I’m still fairly young). The humble thing, just a joke (I think humility is only good when it’s useful, otherwise it’s unnatural).

And yes I am more intelligent and more courageous than the three or so billion people who fear death so much that they believe in a mythological fairy tale.

 

[bbarrick8383]

I have three degrees actually, one masters and one professional degree. However, I’m not a doctor (not yet anyway … but I’m still fairly young). The humble thing, just a joke (I think humility is only good when it’s useful, otherwise it’s unnatural).

And yes I am more intelligent and more courageous than the three or so billion people who fear death so much that they believe in a mythological fairy tale.

Tell me oh wise one, what courageous deeds have you done to put yourself on such a high pedestal?

 

[Shin]

What is the Church’s position on the Separation of Church and State?

My poor research skills do not allow me to dive deeper into this subject.

Can anyone elaborate?

Thank you.

The Church’s position on separation between Church and State is that the state should acknowledge the Catholic Church and support its endeavors, and no other religions. This is because the state must serve the truth, and the state must serve God, for God owns the state, and and all authority is derived from God. To the extent the state denies Christ, the state is in the hands of Hell, instead of the Lord.

The state has a duty to support the moral law, and to work for the Lord, for just as the individual soul’s purpose is to do these things and to acknowledge and serve God, so too is the collective’s purpose the exact same thing.

The state must also not interfere with the Church’s hierarchy and who is chosen as bishop or priest.

Currently priests and bishops may not become politicians, but this is a disciplinary law only, and it has often been the opposite case in Church history.

The current meaning ‘separation between Church and state’ found in America (but not in the Constitution), is generally unacceptable to Catholicism, save in the sense of course that the state must not oppress the Catholic religion, nor interfere with Church government. There is no problem that there is a separation between Church and state government, that has always been the case to some degree or another, but the state must acknowledge Christ – and so should acknowledge the authority of Christ’s Church – there is no separation between this acknowledgment. God’s Church is God’s, after all, to deny the Church is to deny Christ.

As an American, since one can vote to amend to Constitution, and support changes thereof, naturally one as a Catholic would support the eventual recognition of God in the law, as is only appropriate – to do otherwise is to deny Christ. However such recognition is at the moment far from the table as there is not even a Catholic political party, which is what there should be to advance the causes of Christ.

 

[bbarrick8383]

That’s interesting Shin, that the Catholic Church would oppose seperation of Church and State. The idea of it was to keep the State from doing what England did and create/control their own Church. I’m not a history buff, but I would think that State having power over/with religion would hurt the Catholic Church. Which is essentially, and especially in the U.S., what would happen if there were no seperation.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Tell me oh wise one, what courageous deeds have you done to put yourself on such a high pedestal?

I was in the army for a while (and deployed back in 2004-05) … but that’s not exactly what I mean by courage. Even driving around Iraq didn’t make me cry out to an invisible friend.

I know … it seems harsh. It’s much more comforting for people to believe in fairy tales. If you were to tell me you’ve been through some tragedy and lost a loved one, I probably wouldn’t have this discussion (since I wouldn’t want to upset a person who relies on those type of beliefs to comfort them under such circumstances, no matter how irrational or bizarre).

This is why I say I don’t mind religion (at least Judaism or Christianity … though I could do without Islam). I just want religion to stay out of science and politics, or preach a new game. Why should we restrict our research for some fairy tale? Keep the fair tales out the laboratory (and we won’t do scientific experiments in churches) & I think the world will be much better off. Oh, while I’m at it … can you guys shut up the real wackos like John Hague who I’m convinced dream of fighting in some apocalyptic war (even though he’s a fat old man who couldn’t fight his way out a wet paper bag, unless it was full of Popeye’s Chicken that is).

 

[Shin]

That’s interesting Shin, that the Catholic Church would oppose seperation of Church and State. The idea of it was to keep the State from doing what England did and create/control their own Church. I’m not a history buff, but I would think that State having power over/with religion would hurt the Catholic Church. Which is essentially, and especially in the U.S., what would happen if there were no seperation.

It’s not a matter of ‘power over’ as the restrictions on interference within the Church herself demonstrate, it’s ‘support of’.

The idea that getting the government out of obedience to Christ supports religion is illogical, it is saying, ‘getting Christ out of the government is supporting Christ’. A policy of non-interference is a policy against, just like it would be for me as in individual to not support Christ.

The state is to support not restrict the Church. In this country many actions are taken against Christianity regularly, just as they were by Henry – the state is for or against Christ, just like individual people. The state always has power over religion whether it acknowledges it has this power or does not, it uses it, and uses it today to oppress the Christianity in many ways.

When you hear the words ‘separation of church and state’ read it as ‘separation of God and state’ or ‘separation of Christ and state’, it is the same thing.

 

[bbarrick8383]

I was in the army for a while (and deployed back in 2004-05) … but that’s not exactly what I mean by courage. Even driving around Iraq didn’t make me cry out to an invisible friend.

I know … it seems harsh. It’s much more comforting for people to believe in fairy tales. If you were to tell me you’ve been through some tragedy and lost a loved one, I probably wouldn’t have this discussion (since I wouldn’t want to upset a person who relies on those type of beliefs to comfort them under those circumstances, no matter how irrational or bizarre).

This is why I say I don’t mind religion (at least Judaism or Christianity … though I could do without Islam). I just want religion to stay out of science and politics, or preach a new game. Why should we restrict our research for some fairy tale? Keep the fair tales out the laboratory (and we won’t do scientific experiments in churches) & I think the world will be much better off. Oh, while I’m at it … can you guys shut up the real wackos like John Hague who I’m convinced dream of fighting in some apocalyptic war (even though he’s a fat old man who couldn’t fight his way out a wet paper bag, unless it was full of Popeye’s Chicken that is).

Ahh, Army huh. So was I, never had to go to Iraq though. Trained a few soldier before they left and got my HD shortly after. Hope you did not lose any religious friends over there that cried out to an invisible God while they were dying.

It’s unfortunate that you are so intelligent yet lack enough common sense to show respect for religion. It’s not harsh actually, stupid to me, but not harsh. I do not believe in God for comfort, or because I am afraid to die my friend. It’s the other way around as a matter of fact, I’m courageous enough that if I were called up now to Afghanistan or Pakistan I’d be more than happy to go, right to the thick of it. And if God decided he was ready for me to come home then home is where I will be. I can only hope that I am lucky enough to go to heaven. I got two big healthy boys to step up and fill my shoes. What’s missing in your life?

BTW, God is everywhere whether or not you like it.

 

[bbarrick8383]

It’s not a matter of ‘power over’ as the restrictions on interference within the Church herself demonstrate, it’s ‘support of’.

The idea that getting the government out of obedience to Christ supports religion is illogical, it is saying, ‘getting Christ out of the government is supporting Christ’. A policy of non-interference is a policy against, just like it would be for me as in individual to not support Christ.

The state is to support not restrict the Church. In this country many actions are taken against Christianity regularly, just as they were by Henry – the state is for or against Christ, just like individual people. The state always has power over religion whether it acknowledges it has this power or does not, it uses it, and uses it today to oppress the Christianity in many ways.

When you hear the words ‘separation of church and state’ read it as ‘separation of God and state’ or ‘separation of Christ and state’, it is the same thing.

I understand where you are coming from. The federal government was originally designed to not have a moral judgement, law or regulation though I believe… Therefore, state government would be in part responsible for laws or regulations regarding religion or morals. So Oklahoma would probably be in line with the religious people here, but California would not. Personally, I think that is the way it should be. I am obviously pro-life and I know for the most part my state is as well.

 

[allhers]

I listened to two very powerful, intelligent and holy men the other night on EWTN (Eternal Word Television Network).

I liked the way Fr. Corapi said it:
It is only the spiritual mind that can discern the things of God. Sometimes education becomes and impediment.

Fr. Mitch said the only place that it was found (seperation of Church and State), was in the Soviet Unions Constitution. Ours doesn’t have seperation of Church and State, it has non-establishment of Religion by the Congress.

 

[DallasTexas]

BTW, I’m not far from you. If you have not already, you should take a drive up to Lindsay, TX and Muenster, TX. Would be a little over an hour, maybe an hour and a half to get there. They have a beautiful Church built in 1914 I think. It is amazing. Have not been in the Church in Muenster, but it looks really nice as well. If you have a german heritage you will appreciate it even more.

bbarrick 8383,

Wow you are close. I’ve really been wanting to visit that are some more. The Texas German communities are really interesting. Have you ever been to Giddings, Texas by any chance? Fredericksburg is probably one of the more famous ones…

Many of the German communities were founded when they sailed the ships as far up the rivers as possible; then dismantled to the ships and used the material to construct the communities. I know Giddings started this way. I wonder how Muenster was founded.

We are pretty close. My mother’s side of the family comes from Fannin County (east of Grayson). My grandmother is a Lee–the Lee’s came from Northern Virginia to North Texas during the Republic days. I need to get back up there.

It’s interesting that you mention this. Most of the German communities in Texas that I know fled Germany for religious freedom.

 

[DallasTexas]

It’s not a matter of ‘power over’ as the restrictions on interference within the Church herself demonstrate, it’s ‘support of’.

The idea that getting the government out of obedience to Christ supports religion is illogical, it is saying, ‘getting Christ out of the government is supporting Christ’. A policy of non-interference is a policy against, just like it would be for me as in individual to not support Christ.

The state is to support not restrict the Church. In this country many actions are taken against Christianity regularly, just as they were by Henry – the state is for or against Christ, just like individual people. The state always has power over religion whether it acknowledges it has this power or does not, it uses it, and uses it today to oppress the Christianity in many ways.

When you hear the words ‘separation of church and state’ read it as ‘separation of God and state’ or ‘separation of Christ and state’, it is the same thing.

Shin,

Thank you for your post.

Do you know of any Catholic documents or Papal encyclicals that state the above?

I was just hoping to be able to study it.

Thank you again.

 

[bbarrick8383]

bbarrick 8383,

Wow you are close. I’ve really been wanting to visit that are some more. The Texas German communities are really interesting. Have you ever been to Giddings, Texas by any chance? Fredericksburg is probably one of the more famous ones…

Many of the German communities were founded when they sailed the ships as far up the rivers as possible; then dismantled to the ships and used the material to construct the communities. I know Giddings started this way. I wonder how Muenster was founded.

We are pretty close. My mother’s side of the family comes from Fannin County (east of Grayson). My grandmother is a Lee–the Lee’s came from Northern Virginia to North Texas during the Republic days. I need to get back up there.

It’s interesting that you mention this. Most of the German communities in Texas that I know fled Germany for religious freedom.

I have a really nice view of Texas from my frond door. I’m really close to the river, and not far from the WinStar world casino that is on I-35 just before you get to Texas. I’m not a gambler, but it’s a sight to see as well. I have not been to Giddings or Fredericksburg, I will check them out. Me and the wife enjoy taking day trips every once in awhile. There is a highway, leaving Muenster that winds through a windmill farm. It’s a really nice drive.

Just recently I did a geneaology search for my last name Barrick. I found out that my family has been in the US since 1750. The first ancestor to come to America was from Germany, he migrated and settled down in Maryland. Their last name was actually Berg though. It was interesting to find out my ancestors where from Germany. We’ve been here so long though that I’m German/Irish/English/Indian and who knows what else. But it’s always interesting to find out where your last name is from.

 

[Shin]

Shin,

Thank you for your post.

Do you know of any Catholic documents or Papal encyclicals that state the above?

I was just hoping to be able to study it.

Thank you again.

Sure, I’ll get you a nice little list. Give me a few.