What is the Church's stance on conversion therapy for gays

[CopticChristian]

The truth is
If an individual wants to put their mental health, deepest secrets, and financial means into that kind of thing- well what can I say- God Bless Them.

Ringil,

What is your problem, the American Psychiatric Association says it is not a disorder or disease, just normal. So if it is just normal and people seek help from any of the above for just normal why do you need to worry about accountability, malpractice, or anything else…it is just normal…you say that mental health is the concern…your licensing bodies and all the other soothsayers not truth sayers say it is normal so why are you worried?

Have you read Nicolosi’s book…here are those that suggest it is a work worth reading…

“Joseph Nicolosi has achieved in this book what could only be the culmination of decades of clinical observation and scholarly integration of what is known today about the origins and treatment of homosexuality when it is not ego-syntonic.” * » « JOHANNA TABIN, Ph.D., member, American Psychological Association and Division 38 Psychoanalysis, and author of
On the Way to Self: Ego and Early Oedipal Development

“Joseph Nicolosi brings extensive professional clinical perspective and deep immersion in the historical literature in this area to his reflections on work with individuals expe¬riencing unwanted same-sex attraction. This volume offers fruitful clinical hypotheses for exploration.” * * « STANTON L. JONES, Ph.D., Provost and Professor of Psychology, Wheaton College, and coauthor of Homosexuality: The Use of Scientific Research in the Church’s Moral Debate and Ex-Gays? A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation

“Every pastor and therapist, whatever their personal theological or moral commitments, should have this book in their library. They owe this to all those who are reaching for an alternative to the sexual ideology of our culture; they also owe it to the demands of common honesty and of intellectual virtue.” « « » WILLIAM j. ABRAHAM, Ph.D., Albert Cook Outler Professor of Wesley Studies and Altshuler Distinguished Teaching Professor, Perkins School of Theology, Southern Methodist University

“For the therapy of unwanted same-sex attraction, very few people have had the depth of experience and wide-ranging success of Joe Nicolosi. A master in the field has here distilled that experience equally for the professional and the interested layperson. Every genuinely open-minded therapist should be familiar with the important insights that Dr. Nicolosi provides.” * * « JEFFREY BURKE SATINOVER, M.D., Diplomate, American Board of Psychiatry, American Board of Neurology and C. G. Jung Institute of Zurich, Switzerland, and author of Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth

“This is a must-read and an essential resource for any counselor’s library. It will have a lasting impact on how the scientific and professional mental health communities view and comprehend homosexuality.” « » «JANELLE HALLMAN, M.A., L.P.C., author of The Heart of Female Same-Sex Attraction

“The right of the patient to choose his or her therapeutic goals is paramount, and attempts to stifle the patient’s freedom of choice are not only egregious, but also contrary to the basic commitment of all health care itself. For this reason, even though I disagree with some cause-and-effect relationships proffered in this book, Dr. Nicolosi’s point of view must be part of the equation in an honest, open deliberation until we arrive at ultimate scientific and clinical fact.” » « » NICHOLAS A. CUMMINGS, Ph.D., Sc.D., Distinguished
Professor, University of Nevada—Reno, and Former President, American Psychological Association

Continued…

 

[CopticChristian]

The truth is that para-professionals, protestant ministers, “life coaches”, Frank down the block, and degreed individuals who are not affiliated with licensing bodies will continue to practice using these misguided methods. They are doing so simply as private individuals who have “hung a sign in front of their door”.

The problem is that when an individual sees one of these folks for “therapy” they need to understand that there is no accountability for the work being provided and the client has no legal standing regarding mal-practice, unethical behavior, or betrayals of confidentiality.

It’s pretty much like going to Lucy in the old Peanuts cartoons.

If an individual wants to put their mental health, deepest secrets, and financial means into that kind of thing- well what can I say- God Bless Them.

Continued…

So since your organizations say this is normal why are you so concerned?

and the Foreward was written by a former president of the American Psychological Association…

An advocate for gay men and women who are serious about striving to overcome their same-sex orientation and achieving sexual fulfillment heterosexually, Nicolosi—like a voice in the wilderness—audaciously defies conventional psychologists who cling to the belief that changing from homo¬sexuality to heterosexuality is neither possible nor advisable.
Disseminating his point of view is desirable and necessary for society, as well as for gay men and lesbians. Now this is not to definitively assert that for many homosexuals, heterosexuality is preferable to homosexuality; only that this quest should be freely accessible to the homosexual person, if indeed that is his or her wish.
Nicolosi’s treatise on reparative therapy is a groundbreaking and coura¬geous navigation of the tricky shoals, perilous undertows, and precipitous twists and turns required to bypass the psychological community’s declara¬tion that homosexuality is appropriate for all homosexual men and women. rhough still controversial, his treatise is punctuated and made more believ¬able through his reliance on the client’s perceptions, feelings and family

•  _.: .;_-

In a word, Nicolosi’s thrust in promoting his point of view on behalf of this contentious hot-button issue is broad and deep, abstract and experiential, and theoretically and practically depicted.

The policies and resolutions of organizations such as the American Psy¬chological Association, and probably the American Psychiatric Association as well, would be better framed and more truthfully based were these orga¬nizations cognizant of, and open to, the sentiments promoting reparative therapy.
Nicolosi’s book deserves widespread readership, by friend and foe alike, whether or not, truth to tell, it is still a work in progress; even if in the long run, he is shown to be right, wrong, or somewhere betwixt and between. The paths to ultimate truth can only be forged when consummated fully and un¬conditionally, and certainly not with impeding and competing ideological polestars misdirecting their voyages.

The author has contributed enormously to the sexual literature by offering his not unreasonable views for consideration by gays and lesbians, by scholars in the field, by the man in the street, and by practicing psychotherapists. His challenging and forceful commentary is must-reading from top to bottom, from stem to stern.

Robert Perloff, Ph.D.
Former President, American Psychological Association
Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus, University of Pittsburgh

 

[CopticChristian]

I do not know why you are obsessed with AA, but it is false that they charge. Privately owned rehab centers that have 12-step based programmes may charge, but AA itself doesn’t.

“A.A. experience has always been made available freely to all who sought it—business people, spiritual leaders, civic groups, law enforcement officers, health and welfare personnel, educators, representatives of military establishments, institutional authorities, representatives of organized labor, and many others. but A.A. never endorses, supports, becomes affiliated with, nor expresses opinions on the programs of others in the field of
alcoholism, since such actions would be beyond the scope of the Fellowship’s primary purpose”

AND

“during the meeting there is usually a period for local A.A. announcements. In keeping with our tradition of self-support, a hat or basket is passed for A.A. members to contribute to defray costs of the meeting hall, literature, and incidental expenses. Each A.A. group is
self-supporting through A.A. member contributions.”

Both of those quotes are from the AA fact file available online.

Point being, AA doesn’t charge a fee, and doesn’t bill itself as a cure for alcoholism. Conversion therapies do charge and do bill themselves as a cure for homosexuality. Regardless of whether or not AA is a religion as you claim, and regardless of their success rate, their business practices appear to be far more ethical than reparative therapists.

St Jude,

How many know that

AA has been declared to be religious and to violate the establishment clause according to the Supreme Court

That AA=Disease model, once diseased always diseased…and what kind of disease? A spiritual disease

That AA wants you to fix your character defects and what are those? They are sins.

That Bill Wilson was saved at Calvary Chapel and that prompted him to write the Big Book

That Dr. Silkworth in counseling the Alcoholic, he wrote the Doctors Opinion, says that the only physician that can help an Alcoholic is Christ.

So if alcoholism is a disease and it can never be cured why is anyone sending someone with a disease to a buch of meetings with non-professionals knowing that the success rate is no better than 5% or spontaneous recovery or no better thatn 37/48 compared with methods that actually work and those methods do not invoke the notion of disease?

 

[CopticChristian]

The truth is that para-professionals, protestant ministers, “life coaches”, Frank down the block, and degreed individuals who are not affiliated with licensing bodies will continue to practice using these misguided methods. They are doing so simply as private individuals who have “hung a sign in front of their door”.

The problem is that when an individual sees one of these folks for “therapy” they need to understand that there is no accountability for the work being provided and the client has no legal standing regarding mal-practice, unethical behavior, or betrayals of confidentiality.

It’s pretty much like going to Lucy in the old Peanuts cartoons.

If an individual wants to put their mental health, deepest secrets, and financial means into that kind of thing- well what can I say- God Bless Them.

Ringil,

You know not what you speak of…I consulted for the Life Process Program and advised the organizing body not to call this counseling because it was on the internet…to call it coaching…coaching can be done in the internet as it is not licensed…

peele.net/treatment/index.php

These programs for problems that are not diseases are now available online without the need of a licensed therapist, since addiction is not a disease…it is habit…Ok…

I will be reviewing and commenting on the following program…go to the bottom of the page and click on the intro etc…it is a web based program combined with SMART…

behaviortherapy.com/

Intro
Motivation
Urges
Self-Management
Lifestyle

You can view the overview of the study and its purpose here…

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01389297

I will probably start the review this weekend…again…in SMART you are not diseased and not your behavior…

please get real Ringil…

 

[ringil]

Ringil,

You know not what you speak of…I consulted for the Life Process Program and advised the organizing body not to call this counseling because it was on the internet…to call it coaching…coaching can be done in the internet as it is not licensed…

peele.net/treatment/index.php

These programs for problems that are not diseases are now available online without the need of a licensed therapist, since addiction is not a disease…it is habit…Ok…

I will be reviewing and commenting on the following program…go to the bottom of the page and click on the intro etc…it is a web based program combined with SMART…

behaviortherapy.com/

Intro
Motivation
Urges
Self-Management
Lifestyle

You can view the overview of the study and its purpose here…

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01389297

I will probably start the review this weekend…again…in SMART you are not diseased and not your behavior…

please get real Ringil…

I have not even touched the subject of addictions in this thread as I have no interest in discussing it- plus I believe it is fairly unrelated to the OP.

 

[CopticChristian]

I have not even touched the subject of addictions in this thread as I have no interest in discussing it- plus I believe it is fairly unrelated to the OP.

Ringil,

Before there were cars, buggys were drawn by horses. Horses had blinders on so that their peripheral vision was obscured and they could be led where the reins of the person holding them would lead the horse. The horse, blinded and only able to look straight ahead pulled the buggy.

Whatever problem there may be and people seek help for, it may not be under the venue of the establishment. The establishment has placed blinders on the public to see only one way to ignore anything other than dictum based on false notions, faulty science, poliltics and personal gain. Some allow those blinders to be placed and others don’t.

Mental Health. Mental health problems range from simple situational depression, grieving, gender dysphoria, feeling uncomfortable with a jock strap to who knows what. In the realm of problems there are parallel modes of dealing with issues that the establishment has suggested is this way or that.

The establishment says that addiction is disease, it is not, yet people and that includes many licensed professionals tout that. Some know it is false and others just swallow the notion and people believe what they hear from these professionals based on what the establisment says. Others say the establishment is wrong and use modalities that you liken to Lucy in Peanuts. Reid Hester, Phd and Stanton Peele, PhD have bucked the establishment on this issue and are provided help for those that want help and don’t want to accept that they are diseased because the AMA says so.

The establisment says the homosexuality is normal. Accept it and counsel people to accept this and get comfortable. You, believing you are brilliant, asked for adulation when you posted, in answer to someone’s problem, “if he’s gay he’s gay”…then followed with, I bet that was the best post of the day…or something to that effect, if you want particulars I will look it up. So you swallow the establisment notion that homosexuality is as is in any given individual and in that vain you have cognitave dissonance as you speak of concern for therapy for those wanting help for unwanted SSA. How can you concern yourself with any therapy for anything if that therapy is directed at what the establishment says is normal. You need to coordinate your thinking so that you don’t say “this is normal” and then think and say “therapy is not accepted”…Therapy for normal? Does that resonate in your mind as something someone would say " Oh yeah, this guy really understands"…I am going to steer clear of these guys because this is normal and therapy for normal is not valid, Ringil say Whaaaaaa?

So, since the stablishment says homosexuality is normal and we know that the establishment does not dictate help with other mental issues, the parallel of addiction shows that St. Jude, St. Gregory, Reid Hester, Phd, Stanton Peele, PhD…promote a non-disease approach to addiction and if homosexuality is normal to the establishment and there are people that want help then what do you care, you will never get paid to see these people that want change because no one will pay for it, you don’t believe they can change, because you too may be blinded and not realize that others believe that change is possible for those that want change and if it can happen for the behavior of addiction then it can happen for the behavior of homosexuality.

Think…Addiction is behavior. Homosexuality is behavior…People that want to change their behavior seek help. Where do they go when they want help?

I am positive that you don’t want to discuss addiction as behavior and that may well be the problem as your sight is focused ahead and not peripherally to take in the whole, worth more than the sum of it’s parts.

 

[ringil]

You, believing you are brilliant, asked for adulation when you posted, in answer to someone’s problem, “if he’s gay he’s gay”…then followed with, I bet that was the best post of the day…or something to that effect, if you want particulars I will look it up.

Yes I am brilliant, However, I don’t seek adulation for my brilliance as I rest soundly in the conviction of my near-genius cognitive prowess.

I do challenge you to show where I made a comment “I bet that was the best comment of the day” or even “something to that effect” whatever that is supposed to mean.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes I am brilliant, However, I don’t seek adulation for my brilliance as I rest soundly in the conviction of my near-genius cognitive prowess.

I do challenge you to show where I made a comment “I bet that was the best comment of the day” or even “something to that effect” whatever that is supposed to mean.

Ringil,

You are a legend in your own mind. You may be the guy like Robin Williams talks about…

You know what big hands and feet mean don’t you…What?

Big gloves and big shoes!

I was blessed with excellent recall…it is a lawyers nightmare when being deposed…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=714433&page=3

Pray the Gay Away Thread…

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
If that’s true, then they are still homosexuals, not straight

You answered…

If a person is sexually attracted to members of the same sex they are gay.

Can I get an award of the most obvious post of the day here?

I took you to task in post #34 in that thread and our lives have never been the same since…

 

[StJudeprayforme]

So if alcoholism is a disease and it can never be cured why is anyone sending someone with a disease to a buch of meetings with non-professionals knowing that the success rate is no better than 5% or spontaneous recovery or no better thatn 37/48 compared with methods that actually work and those methods do not invoke the notion of disease?

Okay. Whatever. I really don’t care about AA, and it isn’t the topic of this thread. If it has such a low success rate as you claim, then yes, I would say that it doesn’t work, and that if I were an alcoholic, I would not do it.

Now that we have the silliness of talking about that out of the way: we are back to the issue of conversion therapies not achieving their advertised goals. It is unethical to take money from people based on false advertising. I would say that it constitutes fraud if done intentionally, and that is certainly a violation of Catholic teaching.

In addition to that, you have the very real possibility of the therapies harming the people who go through them. If people go in thinking that they are going to come out as a heterosexual, and nothing happens other than they decide not to have sex with other men, despite being just as strongly attracted to them, it is likely to induce some sort of self-loathing and depression.

Prudentially, the encouragement of these types of therapy is a bad thing, and Catholics should distance themselves from it. Pray to St. Joseph for the chastity of homosexuals. That will do far more than anything these therapies could accomplish.

 

[ringil]

Prudentially, the encouragement of these types of therapy is a bad thing, and Catholics should distance themselves from it. Pray to St. Joseph for the chastity of homosexuals. That will do far more than anything these therapies could accomplish.

Well luckily Catholics do stay away from these religio-pseudo-therapies. No licenced mental health professional working for Catholic Charities or for any other agency receiving funds through the Church would be conducting this type of work.

The whole Reparative/Conversion therapy nonsense is really an evangelical christian thing.

 

[CopticChristian]

Okay. Whatever. I really don’t care about AA, and it isn’t the topic of this thread. If it has such a low success rate as you claim, then yes, I would say that it doesn’t work, and that if I were an alcoholic, I would not do it.

Now that we have the silliness of talking about that out of the way: we are back to the issue of conversion therapies not achieving their advertised goals. It is unethical to take money from people based on false advertising. I would say that it constitutes fraud if done intentionally, and that is certainly a violation of Catholic teaching.

In addition to that, you have the very real possibility of the therapies harming the people who go through them. If people go in thinking that they are going to come out as a heterosexual, and nothing happens other than they decide not to have sex with other men, despite being just as strongly attracted to them, it is likely to induce some sort of self-loathing and depression.

Prudentially, the encouragement of these types of therapy is a bad thing, and Catholics should distance themselves from it. Pray to St. Joseph for the chastity of homosexuals. That will do far more than anything these therapies could accomplish.

Jude,

Have you read Nicolosi’s book Shame and Attachment loss, I have a copy and am reading it…to form a judgement…are you forming a judgement based on reading all the material or based on second hand information?

 

[CopticChristian]

Well luckily Catholics do stay away from these religio-pseudo-therapies. No licenced mental health professional working for Catholic Charities or for any other agency receiving funds through the Church would be conducting this type of work.

The whole Reparative/Conversion therapy nonsense is really an evangelical christian thing.

Ringil,

In your opinion.

Paul Brand, parents were missionaries in India, and he was a missionary working in India at a hospital under church management. He pioneered tendon transfers in leprosy and later became the chief hand surgeon in Carville Louisiana…

You denigrate the work of a Christian working on a problem for what reasons I do not know.

Gregor Mendelson a Catholic Monk is the father of Genetics.

The Big Bang theory originated with a Catholic priest…

and Ringil denigrates Christians trying to help homosexuals that are not happy with their SSA…

Do you have any knowledge of science or just your own little world of who will pay for your services and what supervisor has to approve of your work…

Please do not denigrate the work of Christians in Science minded work…

 

[StJudeprayforme]

Jude,

Have you read Nicolosi’s book Shame and Attachment loss, I have a copy and am reading it…to form a judgement…are you forming a judgement based on reading all the material or based on second hand information?

No, I have not, and I really don’t intend to, since, you know, it is not actually a scientific study and is just a man’s theories. I have, however, read studies funded by RT/conversion therapies, and they only serve to further convince me that it doesn’t work. You replied to my post breaking down the most scientific study conducted in favour of these types of therapies, so you know this, and you know that even despite the massive flaws in them, they still show that RT has a very low success rate, and because none of them have a control group, it cannot be determined whether this rate is even statistically significant.

Ringil,

In your opinion.

Paul Brand, parents were missionaries in India, and he was a missionary working in India at a hospital under church management. He pioneered tendon transfers in leprosy and later became the chief hand surgeon in Carville Louisiana…

You denigrate the work of a Christian working on a problem for what reasons I do not know.

Gregor Mendelson a Catholic Monk is the father of Genetics.

The Big Bang theory originated with a Catholic priest…

and Ringil denigrates Christians trying to help homosexuals that are not happy with their SSA…

Do you have any knowledge of science or just your own little world of who will pay for your services and what supervisor has to approve of your work…

Please do not denigrate the work of Christians in Science minded work…

None of these people did scientific work on trying to “cure” homosexuality. Ringil was not discrediting the work done by many Roman Catholics in the area of science. He was stating that most Catholics outside of a select few who do advocate reparative therapy, agree with the scientific community that homosexuality is not something that under normal circumstances can be taken away via therapy.

EDIT:
Also, as pointed out above, the “science minded work” of trying to cure homosexuality doesn’t really have any basis in science. No, I do not accept observational studies on a limited self-selecting sample published by people who have a monetary incentive as science.

 

[CopticChristian]

No, I have not, and I really don’t intend to, since, you know, it is not actually a scientific study and is just a man’s theories. I have, however, read studies funded by RT/conversion therapies, and they only serve to further convince me that it doesn’t work. You replied to my post breaking down the most scientific study conducted in favour of these types of therapies, so you know this, and you know that even despite the massive flaws in them, they still show that RT has a very low success rate, and because none of them have a control group, it cannot be determined whether this rate is even statistically significant.

None of these people did scientific work on trying to “cure” homosexuality. Ringil was not discrediting the work done by many Roman Catholics in the area of science. He was stating that most Catholics outside of a select few who do advocate reparative therapy, agree with the scientific community that homosexuality is not something that under normal circumstances can be taken away via therapy.

EDIT:
Also, as pointed out above, the “science minded work” of trying to cure homosexuality doesn’t really have any basis in science. No, I do not accept observational studies on a limited self-selecting sample published by people who have a monetary incentive as science.

Jude,

Then your opinion is unformed and the notion that science has anything to do with this is evident as you know the DSM removed homosexuality based on other than science.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Question why would CAF invite Nicolosi in regularly if it was Pseudo-Science.

Answer: it is not but a militant lobby want EVERYONE to believe the homosexual act is not a sin and thus they have to discredit this movement

 

[ringil]

Question why would CAF invite Nicolosi in regularly if it was Pseudo-Science.

Answer: it is not but a militant lobby want EVERYONE to believe the homosexual act is not a sin and thus they have to discredit this movement

CAF is not an accredited mental health entity and has no standing to either confirm or deny the work of professional mental health providers.

Who said that engaging in homosexual acts is not sinful- surely not I. I have said that an established sexual orientation with same-sex attraction emerging from childhood and/or adolescence cannot be converted into a heterosexual orientation.

Homosexuals living a moral Christian life need to carry the heavy cross of celibacy. I can say that I empathize with their struggle but really, I can’t imagine how difficult this must be. God Bless them.

Attempting to “change” their orientation will only bring further frustration, anxiety, and if they attempt to marry- a truly destructive path will follow for them, their spouse, and for any children they have.

 

[ringil]

Ringil,

Do you have any knowledge of science or just your own little world of who will pay for your services and what supervisor has to approve of your work…

You have been called out regarding a lack of charity in your posts before. Maybe take a look at that.

 

[CopticChristian]

You have been called out regarding a lack of charity in your posts before. Maybe take a look at that.

Ringil,

You routinely talk of what authorities, licensing bodies think and believe as a premise to advise publically what people should do. You have stated that you appeal to supervisors for your conclusions and I recall your explaining this in a post concerning a homosexual relationship. This is fact.

Your world appears to be garnered by constraints. Is is uncharitable to suggest that your mindset is limited as it regards a greater understanding? Is it uncharitable to state facts? Is it uncharitable to ask if your mindset of knowledge of science when compared and contrasted to other forms of behavior bear witness to progress you deny? By no means for to deny the reality that behavior of one type is coincident with behavior of another type and knowing that progress is made absent any of the authorities or restricitions you believe in suggests less than a universal approach to problem solving that is evident for those that know.

Do you believe that it is uncharitable to ask you to concede that your opinion is based on the status quo, based on authorities that are political to advance a cause and to ask you to expand your view? Should I dismiss any attempt to ask you to understand that perhaps you may want to rethink your position as it regards…

Profession of Faith…as you state you are at odds with Same Sex Relationship with the Church
I have no understanding of your sacramental life
Morality…I believe that your opinions are in conflict with striving and teaching the moral life, and in my opinion blinded by your mindset within the context of your profession…
Prayer I assume you pray…

So, do you ask me to ignore your postings and just post the following, in response to your postings I find disagreeable and not founded…? I can do that if you wish…

As a Physician, I ask the reader to view this opinion with caution. This statement is made based on personal opinion, personal experience and is not synchronous with known facts about behavior in general and should be viewed with caution.

 

[CopticChristian]

CAF is not an accredited mental health entity and has no standing to either confirm or deny the work of professional mental health providers.

Who said that engaging in homosexual acts is not sinful- surely not I. I have said that an established sexual orientation with same-sex attraction emerging from childhood and/or adolescence cannot be converted into a heterosexual orientation.

Homosexuals living a moral Christian life need to carry the heavy cross of celibacy. I can say that I empathize with their struggle but really, I can’t imagine how difficult this must be. God Bless them.

Attempting to “change” their orientation will only bring further frustration, anxiety, and if they attempt to marry- a truly destructive path will follow for them, their spouse, and for any children they have.

Ringil,

Your opinion.

 

[CopticChristian]

Question why would CAF invite Nicolosi in regularly if it was Pseudo-Science.

Answer: it is not but a militant lobby want EVERYONE to believe the homosexual act is not a sin and thus they have to discredit this movement

John,

Nicolosi is Catholic and that is why he is invited.

The issue of Pseudo-science is usually what those that want to dispel any resistance to an agenda. What is science? Much of the Psychological/Psychiatric studies of behavior are fraught with so many variables that when comparing it to Science in general, it is pseudo-science. So the pseudo-science calls anyone that disagrees by the same name.

Science has some predictability. Even in life science predictablitiy of unpredictable things is science.

The heart beats regularly. Regular irregular heart beats equates to an arrhythmia and that is the definition of a cardiac arrhythmia. It is regularly irregular, and that would be atrial fibrillation treated with digoxin. Predictable, irregular and treatable.

What someone does is complicated by Nature, Nurture, and a host of other variables and the intent to aid behavior is mixed with no one modality…so when presented with a problem…

The answer and approach will differ when viewed by

Behaviorists
Psychoanalytical
Cognitive Behavioral
Gestalt
Licensed Minister
Life Coach

so who is correct?

One thing that a scientist learns, and I number myself among them, is when there is no one single answer for a problem, then the obvious is that no one knows for sure. This is what is so difficult when one person espouses what any society thinks and believes…it negates progress. Progress is made in spite of and without societies and approval…when progress is made, the socieities adapt those modalities…they don’t dictate science, they absorb science.

Homosexual behavior is now political and the political agenda in California is clear. Silence anyone that disagrees. Wrong move. The Freedom of Speech protects NARTH and anyone else that wants to study Homosexuality and what the Homosexual movement did to try to silence will be a matter of study.

Imagine, some Jewish guy, walking around , doing his job. My shoe repair guy is a Jewish man. He is one of the nicest people I know. Imagine this Jew, says something that someone disagrees with and all of a sudden everyone got in a tizzy about what he says…he bucked the establishment…and for that they crucified Him…

So ask, when the establishment does not like the message and they try to silence the message and crucify the message…what happens to the message…? It gets bigger, more evident, people start looking, and before you know it gains popularity and people see the truth…

It ain’t over till it’s over…

We shall overcome, we shall overcome…some, some day…