What is the Coptic Church?

[Catholic_Tom]

Catholic Tom:

Thats interesting that they do in fact still retain valid sacraments, which along with valid apostolic succession in my mind gives credibility to the church.

My question now is, what was the main issue that forced seperated the Coptics into their own seperate tradition apart from Catholicism?

nevermind, I got my answer from that earlier website:

“Under the authority of the Eastern Roman Empire of Constantinople (as opposed to the western empire of Rome), the Patriarchs and Popes of Alexandria played leading roles in Christian theology. They were invited everywhere to speak about the Christian faith. Saint Cyril, Pope of Alexandria, was the head of the Ecumenical Council which was held in Ephesus in the year 430 A.D. It was said that the bishops of the Church of Alexandria did nothing but spend all their time in meetings. This leading role, however, did not fare well when politics started to intermingle with Church affairs. It all started when the Emperor Marcianus interfered with matters of faith in the Church. The response of Saint Dioscorus, the Pope of Alexandria who was later exiled, to this interference was clear: “You have nothing to do with the Church.” These political motives became even more apparent in Chalcedon in 451, when the Coptic Church was unfairly accused of following the teachings of Eutyches, who believed in monophysitism. This doctrine maintains that the Lord Jesus Christ has only one nature, the divine, not two natures, the human as well as the divine.”

 

[Catholic_Tom]

Fr. Ambrose touched on this earlier and Coptic (Elizabeth) clarified the position on abortion. This is what he was referring to from the Coptic website:

“Divorce is not allowed except in the case of adultery, annulment due to bigamy, or other extreme circumstances, which must be reviewed by a special council of Bishops. Divorce can be requested by either husband or wife. Civil divorce is not recognized by the Church. The Coptic Orthodox Church does not have and does not mind any civil law of the land as long as it does not interfere with the Church’s sacraments. The Church does not have (and actually refuses to canonize) an official position vis-a-vis some controversial issues (e.g. abortion). While the church has clear teachings about such matters (e.g. abortion interfers with God’s will), it is the position of the Church that such matters are better resolved on a case-by-case basis by the father of confession, as opposed to having a blanket canon that makes a sin of such practices.”

So in the Coptic faith, Divorce is allowed in cases of Adultery? I believe that differs with Catholic teaching, does it not? I think the Catholic position is once a marriage is considered to have been valid from the start by a marriage tribunal, then an annulment is not an option. Isn’t divorce forbidden by the scriptures?

 

[Coptic]

My question now is, what was the main issue that forced seperated the Coptics into their own seperate tradition apart from Catholicism?

Yes, you did answer your own question in the next post. The paragraph after the one you quoted further explains our position. But I won’t post it here, as its been discussed several times before.

When Pope John Paul II and Pope Shenouda III met a few years back, they released a joint statement regarding our agreement on the Nature of Christ–which is what was debated in 451AD.

So in the Coptic faith, Divorce is allowed in cases of Adultery? I believe that differs with Catholic teaching, does it not? I think the Catholic position is once a marriage is considered to have been valid from the start by a marriage tribunal, then an annulment is not an option. Isn’t divorce forbidden by the scriptures?

So I’m a little confused here by what you are asking. Are you asking about annulment or divorce? And doesn’t the scriptures say that someone can leave his/her spouse if one commits adultery?

God Bless,
Elizabeth

 

[Catholic_Tom]

Coptic:

So I’m a little confused here by what you are asking. Are you asking about annulment or divorce? And doesn’t the scriptures say that someone can leave his/her spouse if one commits adultery?

God Bless,
Elizabeth

Not quite. Scripture says that when one divorces and remarries, they commit adultery. Consider the following from scripture:

Scripture

Gen. 2:20-24 - we see that, from the beginning, husband and wife are joined together by God and become one body. A body cannot be dismembered and still live.

Mal. 2:16 - God says “I hate divorce.” These are strong words from our Lord. Divorce and remarriage violates the sacred marital covenant between a husband and a wife that has been ordained by God.

Matt. 19:6 - Jesus makes it clear that it is God who joins the husband and wife together, according to His will. What God joins together cannot be dissolved because God’s will is perfect and eternal.

Matt. 19:9; Mark 10:11-12; Luke 16:18 - Jesus says that whoever divorces and remarries another commits adultery. This is an offense against the natural law.

Rom. 7:2-3 - again, Paul reiterates Jesus’ teaching that sacramental marriage followed by a divorce and remarriage is adultery. He who commits adultery destroys himself. (Prov. 6:23). Many Protestant denominations have rejected this teaching of Jesus and His Church.

1 Cor. 7:10-11 - once again, Paul gives Christ’s teaching that married couples cannot divorce and remarry. This violates God’s divine plan for the husband and wife.

Matt. 5:31-32 - the Lord permits divorce only for “porneia.” This Greek word generally means unlawful sexual intercourse due to either blood relations (also called incest) or nonsacramental unions. The Lord does not permit divorce for “moicheia” (adultery). It is also important to note that in these cases, a marriage never existed in the first place, so the Lord is not actually permitting divorce, but a dissolution of the unlawful union.

Eph. 5:22-32 - Paul says that the sacramental union of husband and wife is the image of Christ and the Church. Just as Christ the Bridegroom and His Bride the Church are inseparable, so are a husband and wife also inseparable. A civil divorce cannot dissolve a sacramental marriage (between two baptized people).

1 Cor. 7:12-15 - these verses set forth what the Church calls the “Pauline privilege” - two unbaptized people marry, and afterwards one of the people is baptized. If the unbaptized person decides to leave the marriage, the Christian is free to remarry (because the first marriage was not sacramental, and a union between a baptized and an unbaptized person can jeopardize the baptized person’s faith).

Ezra 10:1-14 - these verses support what the Church calls the “Petrine privilege” - a baptized person marries an unbaptized person. To save the baptized person’s faith from being jeopardized, the Pope may dissolve such a marriage pursuant to his binding and loosing authority. Rev. 19:9 - the marital union of man and woman reflect Christ’s union with the Church at the heavenly marriage supper. Just as Christ and the Church have become one flesh through the Eucharist and the union brings forth spiritual life for God’s children, a man and a woman become one flesh and their union brings forth physical life for the Church. This union is indissoluble.

 

[Coptic]

Matt. 5:31-32 - the Lord permits divorce only for “porneia.” This Greek word generally means unlawful sexual intercourse due to either blood relations (also called incest) or nonsacramental unions. The Lord does not permit divorce for “moicheia” (adultery). It is also important to note that in these cases, a marriage never existed in the first place, so the Lord is not actually permitting divorce, but a dissolution of the unlawful union.

Matt 5:32
But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery;

Are you saying adultery is not a form of “sexual immorality”?

God Bless,
Elizabeth

 

[Catholic_Tom]

Coptic:

Matt 5:32
But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery;

Are you saying adultery is not a form of “sexual immorality”?

God Bless,
Elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth, I would think that you are misunderstanding this one line. If what you are saying is correct, than Masturbation falls under the category of “sexual immorality” and is grounds for a divorce.

By the way, God Bless you too…I love how you have that as your closing line, leaves you all feeling warm and fuzzy, lol.

 

[Coptic]

Hi Elizabeth, I would think that you are misunderstanding this one line. If what you are saying is correct, than Masturbation falls under the category of “sexual immorality” and is grounds for a divorce.

By the way, God Bless you too…I love how you have that as your closing line, leaves you all feeling warm and fuzzy, lol.

So, what is considered sexual immorality here?

Anothrer question, if I were Catholic, and approached my priest saying I wanted a divorce or annulment from my husband b/c he cheated on me, would it be permitted?

I’m glad you like my closer

God Bless,
Elizabeth

 

[chrisb]

Peace be with you Coptic (Liz),

Great to see you visiting Catholic Answers Forum so often! Blessings to you and your family (especially you and your brother)! Amen.

I am now a practicing Catholic (Baptized, Chrism’ed (Confirmed), and had First, Second and Third Communion)! Praise God, Amen!

I hope to dialog with you more on Catholic Answers since our welcome has appeared to have dried up on the Baptist Forum.

Peace, Love and Blessings.

 

[cestusdei]

I suggest the fine book Journey Back To Eden by Fr. Mark Gruber OSB. He is a Catholic monk who stayed in Coptic monasteries for a year. A wonderful book.

 

[Catholic_Tom]

lets see if this makes sense…I think it means that if I divorced my wife because I was sexually immoral in anyway, then she is comitting adultery because the divorce was never valid to begin with.

I tried, I’m not sure how to rectify that particular quote, but the sheer number of passages condeming Divorce is enough to convince me and I’m not going to lose my head trying to figure this one out, especially because I know the bible doesn’t contradict itself.

 

[Coptic]

Peace be with you Coptic (Liz),

Great to see you visiting Catholic Answers Forum so often! Blessings to you and your family (especially you and your brother)! Amen.

I am now a practicing Catholic (Baptized, Chrism’ed (Confirmed), and had First, Second and Third Communion)! Praise God, Amen!

I hope to dialog with you more on Catholic Answers since our welcome has appeared to have dried up on the Baptist Forum.

Peace, Love and Blessings.

It’s always good to see you around Chris!

Yes, the Baptist Forum has become very hostile. My posts there are few and far between as of lately.

Chris, keep up the good work!

Catholic Tom,

I tried, I’m not sure how to rectify that particular quote, but the sheer number of passages condeming Divorce is enough to convince me and I’m not going to lose my head trying to figure this one out, especially because I know the bible doesn’t contradict itself.

You’re right, the Bible does condemn divorce and the Bible does not contradict itself. I think it is a matter of understanding, which explains why there are about a zillion “Christian” Denominations. Now, I’m not saying that your understanding is wrong by any means.

You never answered my question from my post prior to this one.

God Bless,
Elizabeth

 

[Catholic_Tom]

Coptic:

You never answered my question from my post prior to this one.

God Bless,
Elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth, sorry, I forgot to. In the case of if you requested a divorce, for any reason, you would not get one as there is no such thing as a divorce in Catholicism.

Now, if you have a case where your marriage was never valid to begin with (this could be for a variety of reasons), then your case is hear before the churchs marriage tribunal and they determine if you have a case for an annullment. If so, then you would be free to marry again as you would have been considered never married in the first place.

The vows taken at the wedding are such for a reason, good or bad, sickness or in health, to death do us part. Only in the case that you are widowed are you allowed to remarry with the blessing of the church. Civil divorce is not recognized.

 

[Catholic_Tom]

Matt. 5:31-32 - the Lord permits divorce only for “porneia.” This Greek word generally means unlawful sexual intercourse due to either blood relations (also called incest) or nonsacramental unions. The Lord does not permit divorce for “moicheia” (adultery). It is also important to note that in these cases, a marriage never existed in the first place, so the Lord is not actually permitting divorce, but a dissolution of the unlawful union.

Hey Coptic, I found this!!! Now it makes more sense.

 

[thequeen]

There is a church known as the coptic orthodox church not in union with rome but there is also inthe easternrite of catholocism a church of the coptic rite that is in union with rome the holy see

 

[Tony9712262]

There is a massive one near my house, and it looks so majestic. What is this “Coptic Church”?

The Coptic Orthodox Church schismed from the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Since I am already on the topic of Coptic Orthodox, there are pics of apparitions of the Blesssed Mother on top of the Coptic Orthodox Church in 1969, in Zeitun, Egypt.

Muslims even came to pray, and some converted to Christ. The Muslim government thought that it was the Coptics who were trying to deceive, they tried to find a one of those thingys that would give off images, but they were unsuccessful. The first person to witness it was a Muslim, who thought that a person was trying to commit suicide.

try these websites to look at the pics

zeitun-eg.org/stmaridx.htm

people.nnov.ru/sva/IMAGES/zeitoun6.jpg

google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.people.nnov.ru/sva/IMAGES/zeitoun6.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.people.nnov.ru/sva/EL_Zeitoun.html&h=368&w=385&sz=12&tbnid=UbOU9PW6PlAPrM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpictures%2Bof%2Bmarian%2Bapparitions%2Bin%2Bzeitun,%2Begypt&hl=en&usg=__5SBiej4fQShFf8RFNzgYcVjdx54=&ei=p9F7Soa3GcKRtgfvi-3wAQ&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=2&ct=image