What Is the Correct Posture During the Our Father?

[rondirect]

Thanks, was just going to write that!

 

[hope]

You have nailed the problem right in the head. The reason that the Orans position should not be used for the laity is that it blurs the line of the laity to the ordained. Exactly the reason that is given why the laity should not use the Orans position during mass.

 

[otjm]

There has been discussion of moving the kiss of peace to the early part of the Mass; and I believe Pope Benedict spoke on the issue. It appears the issue has dropped out of sight.

And given comments I have heard over the years, it would seem that people see it as a greeting, when the intent is more along the lines of “if you have a disagreement with your brother, first go…”

If it is to remain where it now is, it might be helpful if each parish revisited what it is allegedly about - allegedly, since most seem to have a different idea that it is a greeting.

 

[PetraG]

I think Archbishop Sample from Portland, OR does a pretty good job of addressing this question on Catholic Answers Live

https://www.catholic.com/audio/cal/6134

The question and His Excellency’s answer starts at the following time: 42:20

God bless

Say the black, do the red, it shouldn’t be that hard. People like to do what they like to do.

The one that makes me cringe is when the priest is blessing someone and the whole congregation decides to join in. You look across the church, everyone has one arm outstretched, palm down. I know no one means it that way, but if you took a picture, it would look like a Nazi rally. It gives me the willies.

 

[Pup7]

I just want all of you to know I thought about y’all at Mass today.

I was sitting close to the back with a good view of most of the congregation.

I think I was the only person in the chapel that had their hands folded during the Our Father…which I always do because the orans seems off to me…

…and I almost pulled a “when in Rome” …and then I remembered I was basically the one in the right. So I kept my hands folded.

I got a few looks.

 

[CatholicTurk]

I just want all of you to know I thought about y’all at Mass today.

I was sitting close to the back with a good view of most of the congregation.

I think I was the only person in the chapel that had their hands folded during the Our Father…which I always do because the orans seems off to me…

…and I almost pulled a “when in Rome” …and then I remembered I was basically the one in the right. So I kept my hands folded.

I got a few looks.

I get a few looks every now and then with my hands-in-prayer, and so i throw a look back over my shoulder like “Whazzup homie?? ” Nah, i’m just kidding obviously… couldn’t be farther from the truth, but i certainly feel as if some think i am clueless lol.

 

[TheOldColonel]

Hopefully, no one is mistaken for a priest because of raising their arms too high. If that ever happens, your point will be proven.

 

[JanetF]

I believe it became popular in the 90’s

 

[FrDavid96]

Extending hands in the orans position is a wonderful expression of the Baptismal Priesthood for both men and women.

That’s you personal opinion.

It’s fine for you to have that.

But the Church’s liturgy, most especially the Mass, is not anyone’s personal property but is instead the corporate expression of the universal Church (locally gathered).

The problem we have had in recent decades is people trying to make the Mass into their own personal expressions of piety by altering the forms used in the Mass–whether that’s something very significant (like composing personal Eucharistic prayers) or lesser significance (like these little gestures).

In the Latin Rite the orans position has its own particular significance. It is reserved to both certain times/actions and certain persons. It has always, from the very earliest times of Christianity, been a presidential gesture, and never been seen as one employed by the congregation.

 

[Latetotheparty]

It was nice when the congregation did same gestures in unity. Now, I see roughly 50% of people doing this posture during every prayer in mass. There’s something humbling about folding your hands in prayer.

Don’t get me started on holding hands… my hands only hold each other

On another note - What happened to showing our Priests and Deacons a bit of respect? We might be online but c’mon chaps…

 

[FrDavid96]

Hopefully, no one is mistaken for a priest because of raising their arms too high. If that ever happens, your point will be proven.

This is not just about being mistaken for a priest.

In the Mass, every person present has a proper and appropriate way of participating. Certain words, actions, and gestures are proper to each one. The orans position is one of those gestures—one reserved to the presider.

 

[TheOldColonel]

Please show us to liturgical norms to which you refer here.

 

[TheOldColonel]

Where might one find that in writing?

 

[FrDavid96]

Where might one find that in writing?

GIRM

42 The gestures and bodily posture of both the Priest, the Deacon, and the ministers, and also of the people, must be conducive to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, to making clear the true and full meaning of its different parts, and to fostering the participation of all.[52] Attention must therefore be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and by the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

Liturgical norms are not written to say “this is what is not done” (unless in response to an abuse).

Instead, liturgical norms say “this is what IS done.”

It’s clear that the priest-celebrant is to have his hands extended (ie orans) during the Our Father. The rubric says that the priest does this. Nowhere does it say, nor is it even implied that anyone else do it. Therefore, the burden of proof rests with anyone who claims that someone other than a priest should (or even may) do it.

We don’t see, every time there is a rubric describing what the priest does do, an accompanying rubric that says “no one else does this.” That’s implied.

It would be absurd to think that every rubric describing what the priest does needs to have a qualification that only the priest does it. That’s just non-sensical.

 

[FrDavid96]

Where might one find that in writing?

Roman Missal #124 (Communion Rite) has the following rubric:
He extends his hands and, together with the people, continues:
[the Our Father is then printed]

That gesture is described for the priest. No one else.

 

[BartholomewB]

That gesture is described for the priest. No one else.

Father, for the people in the pews, the difficulty arises when the pastor or celebrant has told his parishioners that he wants them to pray the Our Father adopting the orans position, or – as happened in my present parish – holding hands the whole length of every row. Some of the people present will be aware that the pastor’s instructions are not in accordance with the GIRM rules, but for obvious reasons, they’re not going to create a disturbance that would disrupt the celebration of Holy Mass. We prefer to go on doing it the way the pastor wants us to. He is our shepherd and we are his flock.

 

[pianistclare]

I stood up in the choir loft beside my instrument yesterday and saw 85% of the congregation waving their hands around, while saying “we lift them up to the Lord” and in general aping every single thing the priest does.

Really tough to unring that bell when previous pastors permit it.
In our RCIA classes, I tell them what is permitted and legit, and that which people do on their own volition.
But even the catechists cry “But I liiiiiiiiike it”.

When did the trend of just allowing everything that people “like” or want" to supersede that which the Church herself has given to us?
Keeping your hands on the pew or folded in prayer takes nothing from the prayer.
Priests (some) are afraid that parishioners will cry foul and be offended. I have found, that when a good explanation of why we don’t mimic everything the priest does, and show the passages that pertain to this, people are very happy to learn. But someone has to tell them.
It’s not about yelling or judging people.
It’s about learning what is proper.
The same people who think it’s no big deal are the same ones who complain bitterly about music selections.
We are a stiff necked people, unwilling to learn sometimes.
My 2 cents.

 

[pianistclare]

This is also a thing,…my previous parish was a “hand holding parish” and VERY proud of it. I got called on the carpet loads of times for praying by myself.
Part of the reason why I left and took a job at a different parish.

 

[Escabrosa]

I know exactly what you mean.

 

[Escabrosa]

Sometimes it feels like a Pentecostal tent revival.