What Is the Correct Posture During the Our Father?

[BartholomewB]

my previous parish was a “hand holding parish” and VERY proud of it. I got called on the carpet loads of times for praying by myself.

In our case, it wouldn’t be correct to say we were proud of it. As far as I’m aware, the main reason for doing it was that the pastor had told us to. As I mentioned in another comment higher up on this thread, our parish changed pastors earlier this year. The previous one encouraged everyone to hold hands during the Our Father, all along every row; the new pastor doesn’t approve of that. I was okay with the old system and I’m okay with the new one too. I think that’s true of most people in the congregation.

 

[TheOldColonel]

That comes just short of being pertinent. Indeed.

 

[TheOldColonel]

He extends his hands with the people. Indeed.

 

[Reuben_J]

Just for the sake of saying - I was an oran person for a while, probably about five years in the late nineties. I stopped because I realized it was more of a personal thing rather than the mass. My friends persisted but they seemed to stop too later.

When GIRM was officially introduced to our parish, we were told the oran position is for the presider/celebrant only, not the congregation. The liturgist was one of the represenatives of the Bishop Confetence who was given the task to officially promote the GIRM.

I remembered that there was some argument. It is difficult to stop something that people like and used to do.

Eventually our parish stopped doing the oran because those visible in the church like church leaders, EHMC, choirs, lectors, stopped doing it. Perhaps words did get around.

If one does get to study the GIRM, there are a number of odd things that parishioners do during the mass that are not prescribed in the GIRM. I would notice we tend to follow each other without really knowing why we do them.

 

[Pup7]

Sometimes it feels like a Pentecostal tent revival.

You have no idea how glad I am to see I’m not the only one who thinks this.

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid96:

That gesture is described for the priest. No one else.

Father, for the people in the pews, the difficulty arises when the pastor or celebrant has told his parishioners that he wants them to pray the Our Father adopting the orans position, or – as happened in my present parish – holding hands the whole length of every row. Some of the people present will be aware that the pastor’s instructions are not in accordance with the GIRM rules, but for obvious reasons, they’re not going to create a disturbance that would disrupt the celebration of Holy Mass. We prefer to go on doing it the way the pastor wants us to. He is our shepherd and we are his flock.

All I can do is to do my best to make sure my own parish is taught properly.

I can participate here. I can be a voice advocating sound liturgy. At least by participating here, I can do something rather than nothing.

 

[FrDavid96]

That comes just short of being pertinent. Indeed.

Is is very pertinent. The GIRM describes what is done at Mass, not personal preferences or personal opinions.

 

[FrDavid96]

He extends his hands with the people. Indeed.

No.

You are clearly manipulating the text, as anyone can see.

Anyone can read the words and understand their plain meaning.

The congregation do not extend their hands.

 

[brian_custer]

this is a CAF Hall of Fame post,

 

[bethcoe]

Thank you Father David for your responses. My parish priest, who is also a canon lawyer, has asked the congregation to refrain from using the orans position during the Our Father. Throughout the mass my hands are in the prayer position as this helps to keep me focused on the mass and why I am there.

 

[TheOldColonel]

I see no prohibition against the laity assuming the orans posture. So, indeed, that fact is pertinent.

 

[TheOldColonel]

Surely, then you will find other documents to clarify the issue if it is so clear. Yet, the GIRM, does not prohibit the laity from raising their arms.

 

[FrDavid96]

Surely, then you will find other documents to clarify the issue if it is so clear. Yet, the GIRM, does not prohibit the laity from raising their arms.

That doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

There’s no prohibition against having a dancing monkey playing a squeeze-box during the psalm. That doesn’t mean it’s right to do it.

Liturgical norms do not say what-not-to-do. They say what is done. That’s how those documents operate.

If something is not described, then it is, by that very fact, not to be done.

I can go on forever listing things that the GIRM doesn’t prohibit. That does not mean they’re acceptable liturgical practice. It defies sense, and more to the point, it defies liturgical practice, to claim that just because there’s no specific prohibition against doing some specific thing, then it is thereby permitted. It’s utter nonsense to think that’s how liturgy works.

There is a very clear prohibition, going back to the documents of Vatican II (SC #22) which prohibits adding, removing, or changing anything. That’s plain enough; at least it should be plain enough.

I’ve already explained that the orans posture is a presidential gesture in the Latin rite. It is a gesture which is reserved to the priest because the priest presides at the Mass. The Church only needs to say it one time, that the laity do not assume the gestures of the priest at Mass. There’s no sensible reason why saying it once in the GIRM should be insufficient, or that it needs to be repeated for every single rubric in the Mass.

 

[FrDavid96]

Surely you’re not comparing the laity to monkeys with squeez-boxes just because they follow the longstanding practice of raising their arms during prayer. Indeed.

Please.

If you want to have a reasonable, adult discussion about this, by all means let’s have it.

But if you’re just going to continue posting nonsense like that, don’t waste my time.

Indeed.

 

[hope]

I appreciate your participation. Thank You.

 

[hope]

I don’t know where you are but where I am it has only been practiced in the past five years not long standing at all.

 

[TheOldColonel]

Until you’re able to support your point via church teaching, there’s really nothing to discuss. Expecting one to support his claims is not unreasonable.

 

[FrDavid96]

I don’t know where you are but where I am it has only been practiced in the past five years not long standing at all.

Precisely. There’s nothing “longstanding” about it. It’s entirely a recent innovation.

Not only is there no basis for it in Latin Rite liturgy, the simple fact is that for the entire liturgical history of the Church, the orans position has always been a presidential gesture, and has never been a posture assumed by the congregation (or for that matter, anyone other-than the presider).

 

[hope]

Fr. had given ample support which you obviously ignore. Lets put the shoe on the other foot. Where is the Church teachings that supports your view? Where is the supportive teaching that contradict or mitigates what Father has provided.

You asked Where might one find that in writing?
Father answered you and yet you ignored his answer.
You make absurd unsubstantiated statements. Yet you require others to substantiate and when they do you ignore and still demand support.
Father has treated you kindly. I wish I could say the same thing about your responses.

 

[graciew]

Long before that. I saw it about 10 years ago in US.
Very few and it stood out and it called my attention in a positive way,in the sense that I thought the persons had to be converts,from a more demonstrative perhaps Protestant branch.
Which I thought was neat,given how they concentrated and looked serious about it.
And converts from.other religions isn t sth I am or was familiar with.
I know,mine may have been ignorant conjectures…but I sort of appreciated it