What is the "Crisis"?

[Brother_John]

In many threads, reference is made to the “Crisis” in the Catholic Church today.

EXCLUDING sexual abuse/pedophilia, Please elaborate as to what you see as the “Crisis” or “Crises” (plural) in the Catholic Church today.

 

[SenorSalsa]

decreasing vocations

a lack of knowledge by laypeople

 

[holdencaulfield]

decreasing vocations

a lack of knowledge by laypeople

Big deal, it happened during the Reformation, and nothing happened. It’s happened a million times, nothing will happen. By the way the Eastern Orthodox Church has a Vocations crisis as well. It’s nothing new. I think a lot of it is that the United States was predominantly founded and populated by Protestants, and that’s what people continue to want. Whatever, history will change it’s course and the crisis will be over. If you have ever studied history they you will know that history always reverses itself. Perhaps a modern day St. Ignatius of Loyola will appear.

 

[Walking_Home]

Erroneous/heretical views being spread. The following is an example.

The secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith told biblical scholars that false ideas of Christ are rampant, and that the Church needs to rediscover the image of the true Jesus.

zenit.org/article-21732?l=english

BARCELONA, Spain, FEB. 10, 2008 (Zenit.org).-

Some 200 scholars, priests and bishops gathered Jan. 28 and Feb. 7 to discuss this year’s theme: “Jesus of Nazareth: Who Do The People Say I Am?” The conference addressed Christological reflections in light of Benedict XVI’s book “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Archbishop Amato rated the situation of the Church as “critical” and in need of “a rapid healing therapy” due to erroneous positions about Jesus that are currently being spread.

Some, he said, are reductive by not welcoming the revealed mystery in its integrity. Others, the prelate added, are rationalistic by only taking into account its historical aspect and setting aside what is specifically Christian, such as “the definitive and universal value of the revelation of Christ, his condition as Son of the living God, his real presence in the Church, or the universality of his redeeming sacrifice.”

 

[holdencaulfield]

Erroneous/heretical views being spread. The following is an example.

The secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith told biblical scholars that false ideas of Christ are rampant, and that the Church needs to rediscover the image of the true Jesus.

zenit.org/article-21732?l=english

BARCELONA, Spain, FEB. 10, 2008 (Zenit.org).-

Some 200 scholars, priests and bishops gathered Jan. 28 and Feb. 7 to discuss this year’s theme: “Jesus of Nazareth: Who Do The People Say I Am?” The conference addressed Christological reflections in light of Benedict XVI’s book “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Archbishop Amato rated the situation of the Church as “critical” and in need of “a rapid healing therapy” due to erroneous positions about Jesus that are currently being spread.

Some, he said, are reductive by not welcoming the revealed mystery in its integrity. Others, the prelate added, are rationalistic by only taking into account its historical aspect and setting aside what is specifically Christian, such as “the definitive and universal value of the revelation of Christ, his condition as Son of the living God, his real presence in the Church, or the universality of his redeeming sacrifice.”

I keep saying and will say again, it’s not a problem it will fix itself.

 

[Walking_Home]

I keep saying and will say again, it’s not a problem it will fix itself.

---

In the mean time — many, many are led into error. That should be a matter of concern for each and every one of us. Just think of the Arian heresy. The majority of the Church was heretic — until a Council was held.

 

[holdencaulfield]

---

In the mean time — many, many are led into error. That should be a matter of concern for each and every one of us. Just think of the Arian heresy. The majority of the Church was heretic — until a Council was held.

still, I think it will be fine.

 

[Walking_Home]

still, I think it will be fine.

---

Until the Church addresses the problems —it will not be.

 

[laudamus_te]

In many threads, reference is made to the “Crisis” in the Catholic Church today.

EXCLUDING sexual abuse/pedophilia, Please elaborate as to what you see as the “Crisis” or “Crises” (plural) in the Catholic Church today.

The crisis? It’s the hemorrhage of Catholic faithful from the Church. The dramatic decline in Mass attendance, the dramatic decline in vocations. The loss of belief in the Real Presence, not only among the laity, but tragically among some of the clergy as well. The clergy who are leading innocent souls astray. The poorly catechised children who grow up to be indifferent adults with no clue that it is wrong to contracept or support abortion. People who apparently don’t believe in sin, hence no need for confession. The divisiveness between traditional and NO Catholics. Yes, there’s a crisis, and yet some will deny it or say that it will “take care of itself”. No, it won’t. We need to strenghen the armies of the Church Militant, and it’s not going to happen on it’s own.

 

[markadm]

Huge lack of understanding in what is happening with all the sacraments, resulting in lack of reverence, particularly during the Mass. People are losing touch with what Catholicism is actually all about; their beliefs are becoming indistinguishable from Anglicans.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

We are quite probably experiencing the worst crisis in the history of the Church. And what’s worse is that much of it is internal and self-inflicted. And since we are talking about the salvation of souls for eternity this is obviously not something we can take lightly or rest assured that it will take care of itself.

 

[I_Believe]

I agree with everyone above who ackowledges there is a crisis and points to the various problems.

Modernism and collegiality fuel the crisis.

 

[DustinsDad]

In many threads, reference is made to the “Crisis” in the Catholic Church today.

EXCLUDING sexual abuse/pedophilia, Please elaborate as to what you see as the “Crisis” or “Crises” (plural) in the Catholic Church today.

Quoting from [this 2002 article (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29948) reviewing the book Index of Leading Catholic Indicators by Kenneth Jones:

• Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.
• Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.
• Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.
• Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.
• Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.
• Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million from 4.5 million.
  Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones’ statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.
• Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.
• Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.
• Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.
  DustinsDad

 

[Like]

In many threads, reference is made to the “Crisis” in the Catholic Church today.

EXCLUDING sexual abuse/pedophilia, Please elaborate as to what you see as the “Crisis” or “Crises” (plural) in the Catholic Church today.

Big deal, it happened during the Reformation, and nothing happened. It’s happened a million times, nothing will happen. By the way the Eastern Orthodox Church has a Vocations crisis as well. It’s nothing new. I think a lot of it is that the United States was predominantly founded and populated by Protestants, and that’s what people continue to want. Whatever, history will change it’s course and the crisis will be over. If you have ever studied history they you will know that history always reverses itself. Perhaps a modern day St. Ignatius of Loyola will appear.

I keep saying and will say again, it’s not a problem it will fix itself.

I can’t believe you two don’t believe there is NO Crises in the Church today!
You need to crawl out of the shells you’ve been living in. Do you read any Catholic publications? Do you not believe in our Lady’s apparitions…warnings of GREAT CHASTISEMENTS? All you need to do is just look around you, WORLD WIDE!

 

[Brother_John]

I can’t believe you two don’t believe there is NO Crises in the Church today!
You need to crawl out of the shells you’ve been living in. Do you read any Catholic publications? Do you not believe in our Lady’s apparitions…warnings of GREAT CHASTISEMENTS? All you need to do is just look around you, WORLD WIDE!

Why do you assume that I don’t think there is a crisis? I initiated a thread to determine what OTHERS see as the forms of crisis.

While many on this forum see Vatican II as the root cause, others I speak to feel that Vatican II SAVED the Church (especially in the US) from crumbling before our eyes.

I simply asked for your opinions, I didn’t start the thread with a statement of my own opinion. Thanks.

 

[Brother_John]

Ok, now I’ll throw my “opinion” out there.

Personally, and I doubt that I’m alone, I believe that Vatican II SAVED the Church (particularly in the West) from total collapse.

Why? Because the age of technology and information was coming upon us. Television, in particular gained a strong foothold in our society during the 50’s.

People started asking questions, and wanting answers. It is even more prevalent today with computers and internet.

Perhaps Church leaders could see, that teaching the faithful to do this and do that, simply because “Sister Dorothella said so” wasn’t going to hold much longer. Something had to change. Church leaders could see thousands gravitating to Protestant denominations. Today, so-called non-denominationals are popping up like pimples on a teenager.

Yes, Mass in Latin, and so many other Church traditions are/were beautiful. But then again, so was the Titanic. And we all know what happened there. Consider for a moment, that the Second Vatican Council “saw the iceberg” BEFORE it was too late.

to be continued…

 

[Brother_John]

…continued…

reference the post by “DustinsDad”.

One could read these statistics, and deduct that Vatican II resulted in reduced vocations.

On the other hand, someone else could read these same statistics and deduct that without Vatican II, we would only have 25,000 priests instead of the 45,000 we have now.

We could have 470 Seminarians, instead of 4,700, and so on.

The truth is, that none of us know for sure, we can only deduct based on our personal beliefs.

Yes, there is a crisis in our Church, especially where vocations are concerned. But determining the real problem is the challenge.

People I know leave or avoid the Church, and head for other churches because they are made to feel worthy and/or welcome…because they get their questions answered. (at least in a manner that they feel they understand)

Where do I get my info? Talking to friends and neighbors, and even family members who have left the Church. These are the things they point out to me.

NOBODY has ever told me that they avoid or left the Church because we lack reverence or don’t say Mass in Latin anymore.

ok, pile on !!

 

[ElizaCatherine]

I am a convert. I came to the Church because they could actually answer my questions. Every other church that I investigated didn’t really have an answer. They had opinions, but not hard and fast answers, and their opinions differed withing the same church. I couldn’t get the answers I wanted until I finally gave in to God’s call to the Catholic Church. I find it hard to believe that people are really getting answers in the protestant churches. I think they are being told that they are good people and that they are welcome, but surely they are missing the Truth. I am so blessed to be Catholic. I love the Church and her teachings.

That being said, I do think there are many things that look innocent enough when they are looked at individually. When you add them all together they create crisis. Choose your favorite. It may look like “nothing” when you examine it on it’s own, but put it with all of the other “nothings” and it becomes a big problem.

 

[Sure]

Quoting from [this 2002 article (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29948) reviewing the book Index of Leading Catholic Indicators by Kenneth Jones:

• Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.
• Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.
• Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.
• Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.
• Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.
• Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million from 4.5 million.
  Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones’ statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.
• Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.
• Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.
• Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.
  DustinsDad

A few notes…

Ken Jones likes to play fast and loose with statistics to bolster his own agenda.

Take for example his Mass Attendance Stats. He says:

“A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.”

Why didn’t he use the Gallup Poll stats for a recent number? Because they show Mass attendance at 46% not 25% which is still a decline but not as big a decline as he would like. Mixing and matching like this is amateur.

Let’s look at Seminarian Stats. He says:

“Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent.”

Ooooh. What shocking numbers! Only, they are totally false. The decrease is from the closing of high school seminaries that were Catholic high schools. Thousands of boys attending these schools never went on to the major seminary.

So, let’s look at major seminary stats:

1965 - 8,325
2004 - 3,308

Hmmm…that’s not a decline of 90%. Oh, and he neglects to mention that from 1995 to 2004 the number of seminarians has INCREASED 4.3%

Also, since the US is only 5.8% of the world’s catholic population perhaps it would be good to look at the worldwide stats.

Total number of priests:

1970 - 419,728
1975 - 404,783
1990 - 403,173
2004 - 405,450

Yes, it’s a decline. Is the sky falling? No…and oh wait, the number of priests has gone UP since 1990.

And as for worldwide diocesan ordinations…

1970 - 4,622
1980 - 3,860
2000 - 6,814

Yes, that means priestly diocesan ordinations have increased 77% since 1980!

But does Ken Jones use any of this data? No, because it doesn’t fit his agenda.

Certainly, the Church has problems. Certainly, vocations are an issue. Crisis??? Yeah, there was one…25 years ago. We have many good strong young bishops and seminaries in those dioceses are growing. Things are much improved and getting better day by day.

 

[latinmasslover]

Loss of Catholic Christian pride.
Wanting to blend for the sake of peace (false ecumenism).
Lack of Faith in the True Church (making no religious distinctions).
The faithful and (unfortunately) some of the clergy accepting all practices but the Catholic ones (abandoning the sacredness of Catholicism for the charismatic movement).
Loss of reverence for the Lord (Communion in the hand and standing, offering the Chalice to the laity, Eucharistic ministers…essentially, most of the Novus Ordo Missae - compare the missals before you rant please).
Personal comfort over God (no altar rails, reception of Communion “norm,” liberalism/modernism).