What is the difference between abortion and harvesting fetal body parts?

[AlanFromWichita]

Katie1723:

A family who suffers an ectopic pregnancy has enough sorrow.It is not something they “elect” to have happen to them.

Yes, they are in sorrow and grief and may not be thinking clearly when well-intentioned Catholics talk them into performing mutilation surgery on the mother.

Elective mutilation surgery is an evil means to a good end. The good end is saving the mother’s life.

Directly targeting the baby vs. removing its tube is just a fancy way of putting a blindfold on them before we execute them. That way we don’t have to see them because they’re wrapped up in a little package. If you cannot see that, having been fully warned, then go ahead. The baby will die, but to make ourselves feel better let’s go ahead and take away its younger siblings too.

Oh, yeah. That’s based on my ignorance again. Is it possible to save the mother’s fertility on the affected side if the tube is removed? If not, then it is simply elective invasiver surgery rather than surgery that will damage the mother’s reproductive system any further than it already is. That weakens my point, but does not remove it – so I dare speak anyway regardless of that medical fact gap.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

puzzleannie:

I am at loss to understand how one would harvest fetal body parts without abortion. Indeed the problem from a medical standpoint would be how to abort without destroying the body part in question. Harvesting increases and intensifies the horror of abortion and raises it from a level of personal convenience of the mother to the attempt, demonstrated so ably by the Nazis, to justify a national or social good in the procedure.

Sometimes when I hear “harvesting” like this, I think not of pregnant women, but of tables full of petri dishes. This, to me, is extremely scary, as I have no doubt there are regimes which would literally grow fields of babies for their parts, and in fact for their bodies. It’s almost a bit like the Matrix or something, where humans are “cultured” in the sense they are grown in a lab rather than enjoy a rich culture.

Maybe that’s not what the thread title was about, but that is probably what got my attention – the horrible image of hundreds of thousands of babies in culture dishes, with a minimum-wage attendant coming through every now and then and checking on the crop. Maybe I’m getting the issue mixed up with cloning, but IMO they all go the same way – it’s all about playing God. Papa Adam tried to play God once, and look where it got us!

Alan

 

[TOME]

Alan, I would like to add a few things to help clarify perhaps a misconception some have. An what I am about to write is based on both studies in morality and biology and my teaching experience on a secondary level at Catholic High Schools and also adult religious education programs on a parish level.

About Ectopic Pregency. Many people believe that fertilization takes place in the uterus but this is a misconception. Fertilization normally occurs in the Fallopian tube after the unfertilized egg had been released from the ovary and is being guided along through the Fallopian tube to the uterus. In the normal process when the fertilized egg reaches the uterus, the uterus is ready to receive the egg (physical changes have already occured in the uterus such as an increase in tissue and blood flow) where the egg (zygot) embeds itself and completes the gestation process.

In the case of an Ectopic Pregnancy, instead of the fertilized egg continuing its journey through the Fallopian Tube to the Uterus, the egg embeds itself in the tube and continues gestation. (Please Note: I am conscieously limiting my discussion to tubal pregnancy when I use the term Ectopic). In simple terms, the fertilized egg is stuck in the tube an cannot remove itself from where it is stuck but continues to develop. Also it should be noted that the Fallopian Tube is not like a straw that is smooth and hallow. It is tissue lined and there are countless folds on the tissues at that.

So in the Ectopic Pregnancy, the fertilized egg is stuck but continues to develop yet lack the necessary environment to sucessfully develop. The only environment inwhich the fertilized egg can develop is the uterus however the uterus after a couple of days begins to reject the extra tissue and blood (better known as a women’s period) due to the absence of a fertilized egg.

Therefore, there is a fertilized egg that continues to develop in an enviroment in which it cannot survive, but its continued development could lead to serious complications for the mother and possible death. The only real option is to remove the Fallopian tube with the intention of saving the mother’s life. This surgury is not an elective surgury but a very serious operation.

Perhaps you are confusion this surgury with an Hysterectomy ( the removal of part or the whole uterus)? Because it should be pointed out that these are two seperate proceedures with their own points of discussion.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

TOME:

Therefore, there is a fertilized egg that continues to develop in an enviroment in which it cannot survive, but its continued development could lead to serious complications for the mother and possible death. The only real option is to remove the Fallopian tube with the intention of saving the mother’s life. This surgury is not an elective surgury but a very serious operation.

Perhaps you are confusion this surgury with an Hysterectomy ( the removal of part or the whole uterus)? Because it should be pointed out that these are two seperate proceedures with their own points of discussion.

Thank you for the information, and Katie has sent me additional information in a very nice PM she sent.

Given all that, I’m beginning to think that the premise that removing the baby chemically is not an available option after all, therefore medically the surgery is necessary with no other choice.

If that is the case, I withdraw this example as apropos to my point. If it is the case, I’m glad somebody broke the ice here because frankly, I thought I was quite clear in stating my assumptions under whichI was making my observations about morality.

If in fact the chemical option is not available, then of course I have no objection whatsoever to the removal of the tube. If the chemical option is available, and the only objection to not using it is the perceived immorality of doing so, then I have a serious problem with it and I simply cannot believe the Chuch would teach that.

If the premise of medical facts are wrong, then that does not say anything one way or the other about my assertion that greater harm must not be done for intangible reasons – such a way of thinking is a renegade from pro-choice handbook, warmed over and given a little different flavor.

Maybe in the future we will have technology to grow the baby outside the mother in such a case, but such technology will bring more moral problems than solutions, I fear.

Thank you for hearing my cries to separate the moral issue here from the medical ones – I never intended to opine on the medical ones but to use them only as basis for this discussion. Thank you also, along with Katie and others, for keeping this up until here there is a resolution of sorts – rather than just writing me off as so many do and end up accomplishing nothing but widening divisions. I’m beginning to realize divisions are really in my mind, and unity is there for those with eyes to see it. Seems like some really cool dude tried to tell us that some time back – might have been Elijah, “open his eyes.”

Lord, please open my eyes; I want to see you. I’m ready to do it on your schedule.

Alan

 

[TEME525]

Alan, you are welcome. I agree with you that if the procedure was a chemically induced abortion then there would be serious moral problems.

More, I think our discussion show the benefit of this forum, and others like this, when people sincerely want to discuss and learn and not just approach a Thread with a closed mind, positively put with a mind opened to the truth - that these are often a learning experience rather than a platform to express one’s opinion. I know on more than one occasion I had to change the directions of my thought but like but like you did so with the enthusiam that comes with learning something new.

I am looking foreward to many more of these discussions with you and all who join in.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

TEME525:

I am looking foreward to many more of these discussions with you and all who join in.

I think it’s contageous. It certainly cannot be “original.”

You guys helped make me this way so whatever you think about me it’s all your fault. Blah. Blah.

Alan