What is the difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy?

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Good question. This excerpt explains the reaction of the early Church.

***WHAT LAWFULLY JUSTIFIES THE EASTERN ORTHODOX REJECTION OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC INNOVATION?

The insertion of the “filioque” in the sacred Symbol of Faith (Creed) is arbitrary and coup-like. The Oroi (conditions) of the Ecumenical Synods are authentic, infallible and irremovable monuments. No individual and no local synods have the right to change them or amend them, not even in the least. Only another Ecumenical Synod can attempt something like that. This view has been officially consolidated by the 3rd Ecumenical Synod, when it opined with the following statement: “One cannot pronounce any other faith - that is, to author or to compose any – except the one stipulated by the Holy Fathers who convened in Nice, in the Holy Spirit.” (Μηδενί εξείναι ετέραν πίστιν προφέρειν, ήγουν συγγράφειν ή συντιθέναι παρά την ορισθείσαν παρά των Αγίων Πατέρων των εν Νικαία συνελθόντων εν Αγίω Πνεύματι). This is also how Cyril, who had presided over the Synod, saw the matter and had stated in an epistle to John of Antioch, that it was not permitted “to change a single word of those found in there, or to even omit any syllable.” (λέξιν αμείψαι των εγκειμένων εκείσε ή μίαν γούν παραβήναι συλλαβήν) [1].

The abuse of the Oros of the 3rd Ecumenical Synod by the Papists, which was both outrageous and impermissible, caused immense turmoil in the ecumenical (worldwide) Church and eventually succeeded in tearing it apart.***

Source: OODE full article linked in previous post.
I find it hard to sympathise with this argument as the Eastern Church lived quite happily in communion with the Western Church for what? 400? 500 years? Before all of the sudden they decide this is a big issue? What happend 400 years after the insertion of the filioque to all of the sudden make it unacceptable?

With regard to the filioque, the Eastern position feels weak.
 
Good question. This excerpt explains the reaction of the early Church.

***WHAT LAWFULLY JUSTIFIES THE EASTERN ORTHODOX REJECTION OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC INNOVATION?

The insertion of the “filioque” in the sacred Symbol of Faith (Creed) is arbitrary and coup-like. The Oroi (conditions) of the Ecumenical Synods are authentic, infallible and irremovable monuments. No individual and no local synods have the right to change them or amend them, not even in the least. Only another Ecumenical Synod can attempt something like that. This view has been officially consolidated by the 3rd Ecumenical Synod, when it opined with the following statement: “One cannot pronounce any other faith - that is, to author or to compose any – except the one stipulated by the Holy Fathers who convened in Nice, in the Holy Spirit.” (Μηδενί εξείναι ετέραν πίστιν προφέρειν, ήγουν συγγράφειν ή συντιθέναι παρά την ορισθείσαν παρά των Αγίων Πατέρων των εν Νικαία συνελθόντων εν Αγίω Πνεύματι). This is also how Cyril, who had presided over the Synod, saw the matter and had stated in an epistle to John of Antioch, that it was not permitted “to change a single word of those found in there, or to even omit any syllable.” (λέξιν αμείψαι των εγκειμένων εκείσε ή μίαν γούν παραβήναι συλλαβήν) [1].

The abuse of the Oros of the 3rd Ecumenical Synod by the Papists, which was both outrageous and impermissible, caused immense turmoil in the ecumenical (worldwide) Church and eventually succeeded in tearing it apart.***

Source: OODE full article linked in previous post.
Well, the Catholic Church is 1.2 billion strong and growing. I think it is quite ecumenical.

Can’t you answer my question in your own words?

What difference does it make to you if you believe that Jesus is God?
 
Well yeah but then the purists can’t kick out those dissenters who have the lifetime membership papers if you wanna keep those numbers. 🙂
Well no good Catholic would want anyone kicked out… Rather we would pray for even the worst Catholic (if you can think of any… in public… political life), that they may be truely converted back into the mainline faith and place God at the centers of their lives…

Just sayn’… 😉
 
**Well, it is historically clear that at the 8th Ecumenical Council in 879-880 AD, Rome kept faith with the original Creed - in full accord with Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria. This guaranteed the unity of the worldwide Church - even though some in the west were actively using the Filioque without the approval of Rome.

It was not until the Filioque innovation was adopted unilaterally by Rome in 1014 that serious unrest within the Unified Church erupted. Eventually, this led to Schism 40 years later - not 400 years later as you state. It is speculated that Rome accepted the Filioque in 1014 - because of military and political pressure upon the Bishop of Rome - when he crowned the Holy Roman Emperor (Henry II) in that year.

So if as you say, the objections of the rest of the Church appear “weak” in your view, then why did Rome actively resist innovating the Creed with the Filioque for at least 500 years?

The answer is that there were serious theological and spiritual issues at stake, which Rome well understood.

This extract explains what they understood the implications to be:**

***HOW DOES THE RC FILIOQUE INNOVATION CHANGE THE NATURE OF THE HOLY TRINITY?

Because it destroys the monarchy (=single principality) within the Divinity and it creates confusion with regard to the hypostatic characteristics of the Personae of the Holy Trinity. Monarchy within the divine constitutes an apical point of the Triadic dogma of the Faith, for which some very fierce battles were fought by the ancient Church. As we can see from the precedent lines, the Father is acknowledged as the divine Source; it is from within Him that the other two Personae of the Holy Trinity originate; i.e., the Son (by birth) and the Spirit (by procession). It is this precise order within the Trinity that ensures both the unity of nature and the parity of the Personae of the Trinity. This has been the way that Orthodox theology has always perceived the issue.

The “filioque” however has upset this very order. Not only has it destroyed the unity of their nature, but it also destroys the order of the triadic relations between the Personae. It abolishes the monarchy within Divinity by introducing diarchy (=dual principality) in the relations of the Trinitarian divinity. Instead of the one principality from whom the Holy Trinity unfolds, we have two principalities. The Father has ceased to be the only source of divinity, as they have now rendered the Son a parallel Source. But this insertion of a second principality also upsets and confuses the hypostatic characteristics of the Personae; The hypostatic characteristic of the Son is no longer Birth (the only-born Son), but is now procession as well, and the procession of the Holy Spirit is no longer only from the Father, but also from the Son.

Given this confusion of the hypostatic characteristics of each of the Personae, one can only ask oneself: Why shouldn’t this confusion be extended even further? In other words, why can’t the Father be born of the Son, or, why can’t the Son proceed from the Holy Spirit, etc.? Where do we draw the line, and where do we stop destroying the dogma of the Holy Trinity?

ARE THERE ANY PRACTICAL DIFFERENCES IN THIS RC INNOVATION FOR IMPORTANT THINGS LIKE OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD OR SALVATION?

There are, for the Orthodox Church. At a theological level, apart from ruining “monarchy’s much-lauded and godly status”[2] by creating confusion around the hypostatic characteristics of the Personae, the “filioque” is also clearly underrating the godly rank of the Holy Spirit. For indeed, if the Holy Spirit was not directly dependent on the Father (just like the Son is, but in a different manner), but was concurrently dependent on a second factor (the Son), then the Holy Spirit would be rendered inferior to the Son and would therefore not possess an independent and homologous status towards the Son (which is the case, when the Spirit originates directly from the Father).

For the Orthodox Church, the demoting of the Holy Spirit at a theological level also has repercussions on the matter of salvation. If the Spirit is not equally honored and of the same prestige as the Son (and of course the Father) – in other words, if the Spirit is “second-placed” within the Holy Trinity – then the work of the Spirit in the sphere of salvation (as the finalizing principality of the work of Christ, of the Church, and the sanctification of mankind) is jeopardized.

For the Orthodox Church, which lives and moves within the grace of the Holy Spirit, this has tremendous repercussions on Her hypostasis. Her struggles against the insertion of the words “and from the Son” were not (and are not) about “hunting shadows”, as some people may think. They are struggles for existential matters, which relate to the preservation of Her hypostasis and Her essence, as well as the success of Her soteriological aims and Her redemptive drive. Orthodoxy cannot shun the sanctifying opus of the Holy Spirit, in which it lives, holds on to and hopes. And it is not without reason that the churchgoers in Orthodox temples cross themselves during the reciting of the Symbol of Faith (Creed), and specifically when the words “…the Holy Spirit, Who proceeds from the Father…” are mentioned: this matter is deeply engraved in the faith and the conscience of the Orthodox!***

Source: OODE - full article linked in previous post.
 
Andrew, you’re trying to dance around the fact that the filioque is actually quite old and was in fact tolorated by the church (as a whole) for quite a long time before schism. I’m sorry but how many times has heresy in any form (either in belief, which the filioque isn’t or in procedure) take so long to identify?
 
The Filioque is 100% theological difference as is each of the issues I’ve mentioned. If you choose to ignore the theological differences behind each of these differences then there’s no point to this thread.

You are not alone. I do see this attitude from Catholics a lot that try to sweep under the rug the very heart of the theological differences.

I thought by your post that you wanted to understand them. My apologies for misunderstanding your intentions.
Wow!!! That was pretty harsh!. I guess it’s my turn now. 🙂
 
**Just because a heresy (which the filioque is) exists in partial unapproved usage, in one out of five Bishoprics - is no valid reason for the entire Church to split.

For 500 years, the filioque existed only in parts of the Roman Bishopric, and persisted without the approval of Rome or the entire Church Ecumenically.

It was only when the Roman Bishop broke with the faith of his other brother Bishops - and unilaterally contravened Romes previous adherence to the original “unalterable” Creed - that Schism happened.

You may think the Filioque does not have any spiritual repruccussions - but we EO sincerely do think so. Our objection to the Roman innovation is both based in lawful ecumenism and the nature of the Trinity and salvation as explained in the excerpt above.

We EO are not dancing around anything… we remain steadfastly true to original unified Church teaching from the days of the Apostles - Rome has tap danced it’s way out of that teaching - and fundamentally altered the Christian Faith as a result.**
 
**Just because a heresy (which the filioque is) exists in partial unapproved usage, in one out of five Bishoprics - is no valid reason for the entire Church to split.

For 500 years, the filioque existed only in parts of the Roman Bishopric, and persisted without the approval of Rome or the entire Church Ecumenically.

It was only when the Roman Bishop broke with the faith of his other brother Bishops - and unilaterally contravened Romes previous adherence to the original “unalterable” Creed - that Schism happened.

You may think the Filioque does not have any spiritual repruccussions - but we EO sincerely do think so. Our objection to the Roman innovation is both based in lawful ecumenism and the nature of the Trinity and salvation as explained in the excerpt above.

We EO are not dancing around anything… we remain steadfastly true to original unified Church teaching from the days of the Apostles - Rome has tap danced it’s way out of that teaching - and fundamentally altered the Christian Faith as a result.**
Except it wasn’t a Roman “innovation” it came out of Spain, and it came up in order to sort of fill in for a small short coming in the Creed which allowed for Arianism to continue to spiral out of control for decades after the Coucil that technically crushed it.

Since your claim is that this is heresy, I guess I can only challenge you to prove that it is. How does the spirit not proceed from the father and the son?
 
AMEN!
**Just because a heresy (which the filioque is) exists in partial unapproved usage, in one out of five Bishoprics - is no valid reason for the entire Church to split.

For 500 years, the filioque existed only in parts of the Roman Bishopric, and persisted without the approval of Rome or the entire Church Ecumenically.

It was only when the Roman Bishop broke with the faith of his other brother Bishops - and unilaterally contravened Romes previous adherence to the original “unalterable” Creed - that Schism happened.

You may think the Filioque does not have any spiritual repruccussions - but we EO sincerely do think so. Our objection to the Roman innovation is both based in lawful ecumenism and the nature of the Trinity and salvation as explained in the excerpt above.

We EO are not dancing around anything… we remain steadfastly true to original unified Church teaching from the days of the Apostles - Rome has tap danced it’s way out of that teaching - and fundamentally altered the Christian Faith as a result.**
 
=scapularkid8;6180985]Browsing around Orthodox websites and reading their FAQ sections as a Catholic is in fact rather boring for me.
The reason being is that I just do not see any difference between our two traditions other than church structure and theological approaches to the same ideas.
Is there anyone out there who can further contrast our traditions please? I see what is similar but I’m just not finding where we differ.
***There are at least two signifiant issues that I am aware of; but in my heart I am in 100% agreement with you:thumbsup:

Point 1. The Origin of God / “the Holy Spirit”. The Nicene Creed 425 AD, uses the term “proceeds from the Father and the Son” meaning Co-Equal and Co-Eternal as are the Father and Son, an only indicating that from the Love of Father and Son for eachother [and self] is manifested In, with and Through them.

Point 2. And based on differing views [PRIDE being at fault] we have today’s unacceptance of Peter as the Soverign and ONLy head of the Catholic Church, which denies and GREAT Bible verses [all written long before the Schism] that support One Church /One Church Leader.:o***

Love and prayers,

Pat
 
Except it wasn’t a Roman “innovation” it came out of Spain, and it came up in order to sort of fill in for a small short coming in the Creed which allowed for Arianism to continue to spiral out of control for decades after the Coucil that technically crushed it.

Since your claim is that this is heresy, I guess I can only challenge you to prove that it is. How does the spirit not proceed from the father and the son?
**That is exactly our point - it was not a Roman innovation until adopted unilaterally by the Bishop of Rome in 1014! Spain was, and is within the Roman Bishopric jurisdictionally. There was NO shortcoming in the Creed, it reflected the Divine Truth and Nature of the Trinity, before the addition of the filioque. Surely you are not arguing that we have licence to alter fundamental tenets of the Faith - in order to resolve isolated political problems?

The literal meaning of the word “heresy” is “Error” - and this was a whopper!

Prove it???

The Holy Scriptures are clear that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father - and I have already quoted the “proof” above from the words of the Apostle John. I can provide another incontrovertible translation from the Greek if you wish to see more scriptural proof.

Way before Christ ever talked about sending the Holy Spirit to men on earth as the comforter etc… fully acknowledging that it proceeds from the Father - the Father sent the Holy Spirit to Christ when he was Baptised in the Jordan River, by St John The Baptist.

The Holy Spirit appeared as a Dove above Jesus in the river, and the voice of the Father audibly proclaimed - “This is My Son… In whom I am well pleased!”

Does the Catholic Church ask us to believe that Christ sent this message and the Holy Spirit to Himself? Absurd.

Perhaps you can “prove” to we EO - that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son?**
 
CMatt25;6188888:
Perhaps but the Papacy is a huge difference. I don’t understand why it wouldn’t have already been clear to all in early times whether Peter led the councils or whether he didn’t.
Well I can only exort you to read the fathers, upon my own personal reading of them I feel like it is pretty clear that Peter and his Seat always had the kind of Primacy it has now.
Well, I can tell you that I have read many of the early Church Fathers and can assure you there are quotes supporting both Catholic and Orthodox positions. As a well-informed, devout, and practicing Catholic, one thing that puzzles me about the dogma of Papal Infallibility is, why did the Church had to wait until 1870 to define this dogma? If it was obvious that the Bishop of Rome enjoyed infallibility as successor of St. Peter since the early centuries of the Church, then why define it in the XIX century? And if it was obvious that the Pope enjoyed infallibility, why was this not expressed clearly on any of the first Seven Ecumenical Councils? It seems to me that if all of the Church knew this from the beginning of Christianity, then the Great Schism never would’ve happened. To think that there’s no evidence to support either position (Catholic or Orthodox) is to say that one of the Churches is being ignorant or dishonest and I don’t believe that to be the case. Could it be that the differences between Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, while evident, cannot be easily clarified by looking at isolated verses in Scripture or quotes of the Church Fathers?
 
**That is exactly our point - it was not a Roman innovation until adopted unilaterally by the Bishop of Rome in 1014! Spain was, and is within the Roman Bishopric jurisdictionally. There was NO shortcoming in the Creed, it reflected the Divine Truth and Nature of the Trinity, before the addition of the filioque. Surely you are not arguing that we have licence to alter fundamental tenets of the Faith - in order to resolve isolated political problems?

The literal meaning of the word “heresy” is “Error” - and this was a whopper!

Prove it???

The Holy Scriptures are clear that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father - and I have already quoted the “proof” above from the words of the Apostle John. I can provide another incontrovertible translation from the Greek if you wish to see more scriptural proof.

Way before Christ ever talked about sending the Holy Spirit to men on earth as the comforter etc… fully acknowledging that it proceeds from the Father - the Father sent the Holy Spirit to Christ when he was Baptised in the Jordan River, by St John The Baptist.

The Holy Spirit appeared as a Dove above Jesus in the river, and the voice of the Father audibly proclaimed - “This is My Son… In whom I am well pleased!”

Does the Catholic Church ask us to believe that Christ sent this message and the Holy Spirit to Himself? Absurd.

Perhaps you can “prove” to we EO - that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son?**
This also begs the question why Pope Leo III of Rome had the Credo inscribed into two silver shields without the filioque saying above it, “HAEC LEO POSVI CAVTELA ET AMORE ORTHODOXAE FIDEI” meaning “I, Leo, placed this for the care and love of the Orthodox Faith.” Curiously enough, he did the before the schism. He obviously believed that the clause did not belong in the creed. Some how, many Catholics are either unaware of this or flat out ignore it. 😦

In Christ,
Andrew
 
I don’t ignore it. It was facts like that, acknowledged by Catholic leadership (at least in my home parish), that led me to look more into Orthodoxy, and not be settled with assurances that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are basically the same, only with different understandings of the Pope or what have you. That’s not true.
 
This extract is also helpful as a proof of the non scriptural nature of the Filioque:

**The original phrase of the Symbol of Faith: "We believe … in the Holy Spirit … who proceeds from the Father" is directly from John 15:26: **

ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ὁ παράκλητος ὃν ἐγὼ πέμψω
when and comes the Comforter whom I will send

ὑμῖν παρὰ τοῦ πατρός τὸ Πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείς
to you from the Father the Spirit of truth

ὃ παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκπορεύεται
who from the Father proceeds

ἐκεῖνος μαρτυρήσει περὶ ἐμοῦ
**that One will witness concerning me
**

Examining the key words, we find:

ἔλθῃ

comes active voice of

ἔρχομαι

meaning "to come from one place to another (used of persons arriving), to appear, make one’s appearance, come before the public


**παράκλητος **

Comforter in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant. More specifically, one who pleads another’s cause before a judge, a pleader, defence counsellor, legal assistant, an advocate

πέμψω

send “to dispatch”, “to send”, "to thrust in"


**ἐκπορεύεται **

proceeds derived from **ἐκ + πορεύμαι

ἐκ **preposition denoting origin as in “from”, or “out of”, the point from whence the motion or action proceeds

**πορεύμαι **

"to traverse", "to travel"

Thus, the most important word of the passage,
**ἐκπορεύεται ****(“proceeds”) refers to the Holy Spirit’s origin. Since that origin is “from all eternity” (i.e. outside of time), it refers to the Holy Spirit’s eternal origin and not to the Holy Spirit’s being sent in time (temporal origin).

Roman Catholicism admits **ἐκπορεύεται refers only to the eternal origin of the Holy Spirit. It has acknowledged this in publications:
Code:
        ***... the term εκορευσις as distinct from the term "proceed" (προιναι) can only characterize a relationship of origin to the principle without principle of the Trinity: the Father.***

        Source: L'Osservatore Romano, 20 September 1995,
        "The Greek and Latin Traditions Regarding the Procession of the Holy Spirit"
Because of this recogition, Greek-speaking Roman Catholics do not use the Filioque when reciting the Creed.

The difference between the “eternal origin” and the “sending in time (temporal) origin” is important. They are not the same.

Roman Catholicism has altered the ancient Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Faith and now teaches that the Holy Spirit’s eternal procession is from both the Father and the Son.

Here’s how two popular Roman Catholic translations handle the passage (John 15:26).

**New Jerusalem Bible **

When the Paraclete comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who issues from the Father, he will be my witness.*

*** The sending of the Spirit into the world rather than the “eternal” proceeding from the Father within the Trinity. **

New American Bible

When the Paraclete comes, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father – and whom I myself will send from the Father – he will bear witness on my behalf.

Notes - Comes from the Father: refers to the mission of the Spirit to men, not to the eternal procession of the Spirit. Compare 14:26, where the Father, not Jesus, is said to send the Spirit.

There is nothing wrong with the New Jerusalem Bible’s translation. The use of “issues from” instead of “proceeds” is a fine translation of
ἐκπορεύεται**, but by footnoting “issues from” and stating this does not refer to the Holy Spirit’s eternal procession (His ultimate origin from all eternity) but only to the sending of the Holy Spirit into the world (in time), it simply denies the truth.

The New American Bible distorts the passage using the verb “comes” in place of the far more accurate (and traditional) “proceeds”. This mistranslation obscures the clear meaning of the Greek text. Its comment is essentially the same as the New Jerusalem translation: a denial of the clear meaning in favour of the Roman Catholic error. The reference to John 14:26 is a red herring. No one denies the Holy Spirit is sent by both the Father and the Son into the world. These Roman Catholic translations would have one believe there is nothing in Scripture that explicitly reveals the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps future editions will follow the more recent Vatican statements and correct these errors.

Thus, the addition of the Filioque is neither from nor consistent with Sacred Scripture. Whereas the Symbol of Faith as maintained by Orthodox Christians retains the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, Roman Catholicism (and its Protestant offspring) add to the Scripture.**

Source: OODE - full article linked in previous post.
 
Except it wasn’t a Roman “innovation” it came out of Spain, and it came up in order to sort of fill in for a small short coming in the Creed which allowed for Arianism to continue to spiral out of control for decades after the Coucil that technically crushed it.

Since your claim is that this is heresy, I guess I can only challenge you to prove that it is. How does the spirit not proceed from the father and the son?
Something to keep in mind is that while there is one Nicene-Constantinople Creed, it is in Greek (original) but also in Latin.

To add “and the Son” to the Greek version would render a heretical statement. To my understanding, however, the same is not necessarily the case when “and the Son” is added in Latin to the Latin Creed, since the verb used for “proceeds” has different significations. The Greek version of John uses the same verb as found in the Greek version of the Creed, so it would seem that the Latin version of the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, even without the filioque, means something different by “proceeds” than what the Greeks meant in the Greek version and found in the original Greek Scripture. Unless, of course, the Latins took a Latin word and gave it specific meaning to accord with the meaning of the Greek Creed and the koine Greek Scripture.

.
 
Tisk, tisk, tisk, I can see now why some Protestants have a flavor for “Orthodoxy” who continue to rebel against God given authority over his Catholic Church in Peter and his successors in the Popes. Pride the first sin continues in men. Pride will always be the factor of schism.

Interesting history but they can better serve this topic, without the personal opinions and to try and distort History to only one personal view.

In summary “Pride of men” remains the schism and difference between Peter’s Chair resided in the Pope and Orthodoxy not in communion with Peter’s Chair. There is never Two Catholic Church’s, for there remains only One body, One Lord, One faith, One baptism in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Peace be with you all
 
Tisk, tisk, tisk, I can see now why some Protestants have a flavor for “Orthodoxy” who continue to rebel against God given authority over his Catholic Church in Peter and his successors in the Popes. Pride the first sin continues in men. Pride will always be the factor of schism.

Interesting history but they can better serve this topic, without the personal opinions and to try and distort History to only one personal view.

In summary “Pride of men” remains the schism and difference between Peter’s Chair resided in the Pope and Orthodoxy not in communion with Peter’s Chair. There is never Two Catholic Church’s, for there remains only One body, One Lord, One faith, One baptism in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Peace be with you all
The Pope of Rome is not immune to pride either. He is a man, too.
 
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