What is the difference? ELCA vs. LCMS

[jinc1019]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod?

I know LCMS is more conservative and the ELCA is more liberal, but according to their websites, they both accept the Book of Concord and the unaltered Ausburg Confessions…So I don’t see how they could possibly be THAT different. Can anyone explain the difference to me, and I don’t just mean on specific issues like homosexuality, but from a doctrinal standpoint. I want to know WHY they have different views on homosexuality, for instance. Thanks!

Justin

 

[BobCatholic]

They both claim to accept the Bible but interpret it differently.

Same thing about the Book of Concord and the unaltered Ausburg Confessions - they interpret it differently.

 

[jinc1019]

They both claim to accept the Bible but interpret it differently.

Same thing about the Book of Concord and the unaltered Ausburg Confessions - they interpret it differently.

Ok…With the Bible I can understand that, but how can anyone interpret the Lutheran confessions differently? They seem very clear.

 

[JonNC]

Ok…With the Bible I can understand that, but how can anyone interpret the Lutheran confessions differently? They seem very clear.

They do indeed.

The ELCA takes a look at scripture and the confessions with a more critical interpretive approach. IOW, and without sounding harsh since I was raised by an LCA/ELCA pastor, they are willing to evaluate things with a modern look. For example, women in the clergy, open communion by allowing for a more diverse understanding of the presence, etc.
Simply put, the LCMS is far less willing to do so. In the two examples I cited, the LCMS holds to the historic practice (even before the Reformation) of close communion and an all-male clergy.

Jon

 

[jinc1019]

They do indeed.

The ELCA takes a look at scripture and the confessions with a more critical interpretive approach. IOW, and without sounding harsh since I was raised by an LCA/ELCA pastor, they are willing to evaluate things with a modern look. For example, women in the clergy, open communion by allowing for a more diverse understanding of the presence, etc.
Simply put, the LCMS is far less willing to do so. In the two examples I cited, the LCMS holds to the historic practice (even before the Reformation) of close communion and an all-male clergy.

Jon

Hi Jon,
Thanks for the response. On the “historic practice” note, I am a little confused. LCMS teaches the Bible is the source of authority, but where in the Bible does it say women cannot be priests? I guess what I am saying is…I thought tradition doesn’t matter to Lutherans as a source of authority? You will have to bear with me, I did not grow up in the Lutheran Church. Other than reading much in the Book of Concord, Ausburg Congfession, etc., I don’t know much about Lutheran teachings.

 

[BobCatholic]

Ok…With the Bible I can understand that, but how can anyone interpret the Lutheran confessions differently? They seem very clear.

When dealing with relativism, which is the religion of this age, remember this saying:

“It depends upon what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.” - (Bill Clinton)

If people can interpret the word “is” to mean something different, why not entire sentences, or confessions or books? Anything can be interpreted differently.

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon,
Thanks for the response. On the “historic practice” note, I am a little confused. LCMS teaches the Bible is the source of authority, but where in the Bible does it say women cannot be priests? I guess what I am saying is…**I thought tradition doesn’t matter to Lutherans as a source of authority? **You will have to bear with me, I did not grow up in the Lutheran Church. Other than reading much in the Book of Concord, Ausburg Congfession, etc., I don’t know much about Lutheran teachings.

Well, of course Tradition is important! since you’ve read the confessions, you’ve noted the first section is the ancient creeds, and there are numbers of references to the ECF’s, etc.

As for scripture, the Cliff Notes, as it were, would be:

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. (1 Tim. 2:12, ESV)

As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak,
but should be in submission, as the Law also says. (1 Cor. 14:33b-34, ESV)

…appoint elders in every town as I directed you – if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife… (Titus 1:5c-6a, ESV)

Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife… (1 Tim. 3:2, ESV)

Jon

 

[batman1973]

What I want to know, it’s what’s the deal with WELS Lutherans? I hear they broke away from the LCMS?

 

[jrtrent]

What I want to know, it’s what’s the deal with WELS Lutherans? I hear they broke away from the LCMS?

I haven’t looked at the history of WELS, yet, but this quote from their website was interesting in light of JohnNC’s comment above about the critical interpretive approach used by ELCA.

“Factors in the loss of confessional integrity in the LCMS would include (1) the inroads of the historical-critical approach to interpreting the Bible, especially among their theological professors and pastors”
wels.net/what-we-believe/questions-answers/lcms/wels-and-lcms

Edit: The break-up of various Lutheran groups is briefly treated at this site:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Evangelical_Lutheran_Synod#Breakup_of_the_Synodical_Conference

 

[MaryT777]

What is CLOSE Communion?
Will an LCMS Pastor Commune an ELCA member?
What about a Wels Member?
What is “close” enough?

Mary.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod?

I know LCMS is more conservative and the ELCA is more liberal, but according to their websites, they both accept the Book of Concord and the unaltered Ausburg Confessions…So I don’t see how they could possibly be THAT different. Can anyone explain the difference to me, and I don’t just mean on specific issues like homosexuality, but from a doctrinal standpoint. I want to know WHY they have different views on homosexuality, for instance. Thanks!

Justin

The ELCA accepts the Book of Concord in that it thinks it is a good read and can deepen one’s understanding about Lutheranism. However, it isn’t strictly necessary to agree with it. The LCMS accepts it in that it officially adheres to it. That basically leads to all other differences. The ELCA hierarchy is very liberal, and that’s why officially they seem to be liberal. But I believe much of the laity and some/many priests are in fact relatively conservative Christians (e.g think same-sex “marriage” is wrong, against abortions, etc.). From my understanding, neither community is very hierarchical, and much of it is based on the local congregation.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

What is CLOSE Communion?
Will an LCMS Pastor Commune an ELCA member?
What about a Wels Member?
What is “close” enough?

Mary.

Not letting those who aren’t in communion with the community receive Communion.

No.

No.

Being in the LCMS or WELS.

 

[Stilldreamn]

What is CLOSE Communion?
Will an LCMS Pastor Commune an ELCA member?
What about a Wels Member?
What is “close” enough?

Mary.

A LCMS pastor has some leeway in who receives communion, and a WELS Lutheran who asked would probably be able to receive. But a WELS pastor is very unlikely to commune a LCMS Lutheran because closed communion means agreement in all points of doctrine - and one of the differences between the two synods involves the fact that the LCMS allows women to vote in congregational matters and also can fill MAN-made offices (but not ordained ones). A WELS Lutheran woman does none of those things.

As a youth growing up in a WELS church, my brother could be an acolyte, but I certainly could not. I played piano in Sunday school and eventually the organ. I was fine with that, rules were rules after all.

 

[jinc1019]

Well, of course Tradition is important! since you’ve read the confessions, you’ve noted the first section is the ancient creeds, and there are numbers of references to the ECF’s, etc.

As for scripture, the Cliff Notes, as it were, would be:

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. (1 Tim. 2:12, ESV)

As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak,
but should be in submission, as the Law also says. (1 Cor. 14:33b-34, ESV)

…appoint elders in every town as I directed you – if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife… (Titus 1:5c-6a, ESV)

Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife… (1 Tim. 3:2, ESV)

Jon

Thanks for the quotes, from the LCMS, an excellent point.

 

[jinc1019]

The ELCA accepts the Book of Concord in that it thinks it is a good read and can deepen one’s understanding about Lutheranism. However, it isn’t strictly necessary to agree with it. The LCMS accepts it in that it officially adheres to it. That basically leads to all other differences. The ELCA hierarchy is very liberal, and that’s why officially they seem to be liberal. But I believe much of the laity and some/many priests are in fact relatively conservative Christians (e.g think same-sex “marriage” is wrong, against abortions, etc.). From my understanding, neither community is very hierarchical, and much of it is based on the local congregation.

Thanks for the response. I really appreciate the information. Does anyone have an official response or teaching from the ELCA stating this point, that it doesn’t necessarily agree with all of the confessional requirements? The reason I ask is because the only official things I have ever seen say they do accept them.

 

[jinc1019]

Well, of course Tradition is important! since you’ve read the confessions, you’ve noted the first section is the ancient creeds, and there are numbers of references to the ECF’s, etc.

As for scripture, the Cliff Notes, as it were, would be:

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. (1 Tim. 2:12, ESV)

As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak,
but should be in submission, as the Law also says. (1 Cor. 14:33b-34, ESV)

…appoint elders in every town as I directed you – if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife… (Titus 1:5c-6a, ESV)

Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife… (1 Tim. 3:2, ESV)

Jon

Jon, one other question. You have obviously pointed out that “tradition is important,” but where do Lutherans draw the line on this then? I mean they clearly reject many Catholic teachings and rituals which Catholics argue come from tradition. But Lutheran churches seem to have many rituals and teachings which aren’t necessarily in the Bible as well…Such as the trinity. How do Lutherans decide what traditions should be adhered to and which ones shouldn’t? And do any of these traditions have anything to do with salvation? From what I read from Luther; it seemed that he didn’t think so.

 

[skigirl1689]

What I want to know, it’s what’s the deal with WELS Lutherans? I hear they broke away from the LCMS?

According to the articles I’ve read, albeit from WELS sources, the two synods were never one, just were once in communion with one another. The split had to do with fellowship issues. I am no expert but I’ll link to the two articles I found. I just think most members were born into a specific synod and are comfortable staying there. I will say the WELS is more conservative (stricter) than the LCMS.

“The Split: Remembering the Past” wels.net/news-events/forward-in-christ/august-2011/split-remember-past
“The Split: A Personal Perspective” wels.net/news-events/forward-in-christ/september-2011/split-personal-perspective

 

[BDEklof]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod?

I know LCMS is more conservative and the ELCA is more liberal, but according to their websites, they both accept the Book of Concord and the unaltered Ausburg Confessions…So I don’t see how they could possibly be THAT different. Can anyone explain the difference to me, and I don’t just mean on specific issues like homosexuality, but from a doctrinal standpoint. I want to know WHY they have different views on homosexuality, for instance. Thanks!

Justin

I don’t remember much about the different confessions, but the LCMS is
more of an evangelical free type church.

Growing up in the LCA/ELCA I can say that they believe the Nicene Creed,
and their “service” follows the Catholic Mass. Their Communion is taught as Consubstantiation, which is a bit more complicated than Transubstantiation
Whenever our Roman Catholic Mass changes, so does the ELCA liturgy!
Some have “Communion” weekly, some only monthly. In general the ELCA
is more formal, and further away from Luther than the LCMS. When the Communion liturgy is prayed, the ELCA confesses the Nicene Creed, just as we do in RCC. They believe themselves to be part of the “small-letter”
catholic churches, & are involved in ecumanism more than the other Lutheran churches. In fact, if they could accept the pope, they would be Roman Catholic, that is how much in concert they believe. I believe they would even accept transubstantiation.

In actual fact, the Wisconsin Synod and the Missouri Synod are more like a
Fundamentalist Church, compared to the ELCA, but they do vary from pastor to pastor & congregation to congregation. One Lutheran break-a-way
here in Wisconsin, the Lutheran Bretheran Church, is very fundamental. I
believe they accept “born-againism” almost rather than “salvation by Grace”, which is the belief of the Lutheran church in general.

The ELCA would be more like a “High Church” synod, if one could be called that. Women take part in the service in every way. They do have female pastors, though I’ve never been to an ELCA church which has one. It’s also true that their Bishops may now be homosexual, which shocked my Mom & me, (just our reaction,) as the LCA we grew up in originally believed that homosexuality was considered a disordered life-style.
I’m not sure why they made that decision, but we don’t like it, and some ELCA members have changed to the Missouri Synod Church because of that action. There is one more type of Lutheran church the ALC, or American Lutheran Church, which is mostly found in Minnesota. It confesses more like the ELCA, than the others. Originally there were the Swedish Lthrn Ch, the Norwegian Lthrn Ch, the German, and the Slovak Lutheran Churches. They eventually melded together in the 1970’s.

I can add that for me, the ELCA was a first stepping stone to the Roman Catholic Church. We were married in one, as I was a member. When
the pastor that presided over our marriage ceremony lifted the consecrated elements and said “the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ”, I sure
believed it. That pastor converted to the Roman Catholic Church about two years after my husband and I did.

 

[MaryT777]

A LCMS pastor has some leeway in who receives communion, and a WELS Lutheran who asked would probably be able to receive. But a WELS pastor is very unlikely to commune a LCMS Lutheran because closed communion means agreement in all points of doctrine - and one of the differences between the two synods involves the fact that the LCMS allows women to vote in congregational matters and also can fill MAN-made offices (but not ordained ones). A WELS Lutheran woman does none of those things.

As a youth growing up in a WELS church, my brother could be an acolyte, but I certainly could not. I played piano in Sunday school and eventually the organ. I was fine with that, rules were rules after all.

Thank you for the information.
May the peace of Christ that transcends all understanding…
be with you this Christmas Season.
Mary.

 

[batman1973]

And, if all 3the churches could be one, it could be called the WELCMS.