What is the difference? ELCA vs. LCMS

  • Thread starter Thread starter jinc1019
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
BDEklof said:
I don’t remember much about the different confessions, but the LCMS is
more of an evangelical free type church.

Growing up in the LCA/ELCA I can say that they believe the Nicene Creed,
and their “service” follows the Catholic Mass. Their Communion is taught as Consubstantiation, which is a bit more complicated than Transubstantiation
Whenever our Roman Catholic Mass changes, so does the ELCA liturgy!
Some have “Communion” weekly, some only monthly. In general the ELCA
is more formal, and further away from Luther than the LCMS. When the Communion liturgy is prayed, the ELCA confesses the Nicene Creed, just as we do in RCC. They believe themselves to be part of the “small-letter”
catholic churches, & are involved in ecumanism more than the other Lutheran churches. In fact, if they could accept the pope, they would be Roman Catholic, that is how much in concert they believe. I believe they would even accept transubstantiation.

In actual fact, the Wisconsin Synod and the Missouri Synod are more like a
Fundamentalist Church, compared to the ELCA, but they do vary from pastor to pastor & congregation to congregation. One Lutheran break-a-way
here in Wisconsin, the Lutheran Bretheran Church, is very fundamental. I
believe they accept “born-againism” almost rather than “salvation by Grace”, which is the belief of the Lutheran church in general.

The ELCA would be more like a “High Church” synod, if one could be called that. Women take part in the service in every way. They do have female pastors, though I’ve never been to an ELCA church which has one. It’s also true that their Bishops may now be homosexual, which shocked my Mom & me, (just our reaction,) as the LCA we grew up in originally believed that homosexuality was considered a disordered life-style.
I’m not sure why they made that decision, but we don’t like it, and some ELCA members have changed to the Missouri Synod Church because of that action. There is one more type of Lutheran church the ALC, or American Lutheran Church, which is mostly found in Minnesota. It confesses more like the ELCA, than the others. Originally there were the Swedish Lthrn Ch, the Norwegian Lthrn Ch, the German, and the Slovak Lutheran Churches. They eventually melded together in the 1970’s.

I can add that for me, the ELCA was a first stepping stone to the Roman Catholic Church. We were married in one, as I was a member. When
the pastor that presided over our marriage ceremony lifted the consecrated elements and said “the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ”, I sure
believed it. That pastor converted to the Roman Catholic Church about two years after my husband and I did. 🙂
Click to expand...
Very, very interesting and not at all what I pictured the ELCA to be. I imagined a much more “liberal” church.
 
One difference that I didn’t see drawn out was how the two our governed and structured. I believe the LCMS has a congregational form of governance whereas the ELCA has an episcopacy like the Catholic Church or the Episcopal Church. I believe LCMS churches are rather independent with the local congregation having a fair amount of power. I believe the ELCA has more of a hierarchy, although I think the local congregations have more power than in other churches with an episcopal form of government.
jinc1019 said:
Very, very interesting and not at all what I pictured the ELCA to be. I imagined a much more “liberal” church.
Click to expand...
I think the ELCA is in general a very liberal church in doctrine and practice. There are conservative churches and members within it but the national body is very liberal. At the same time I think it may be more high church. It seems to me not uncommon in Protestant churches for high church practices to be associated with a liberal theology.
 
I’m ELCA (and TEC, my parish has both affiliations). :nun1:

I’m relatively new to it, so I may not able to answer all questions. I’m mostly theologically conservative in a C.S. Lewis/N.T. Wright kind os way, with a little Brian McLaren mixed in. I’m “high church” in that I’m fond of liturgy and in that my parish calls itself Anglo-Catholic.

I could not be LCMS as women’s ordination and open communion are non-negotiables for me, and so is YEC not being required (I like the Catholic positions on science and creation). WELS is right out, way too fundy and sexist for me.
 
The LCMS has a faction that styles itself as O.W.N. (Ordain Women Now). So far although they are pretty vocal their position hasn’t gained much traction although I am sure they will be more active leading up the the Synod Convention in 2013.

Honestly, women’s ordination is a deal-breaker for me - it would be difficult to stay within the LCMS if that doctrine was passed.
 
Izdaari said:
I’m ELCA (and TEC, my parish has both affiliations). :nun1:

I’m relatively new to it, so I may not able to answer all questions. I’m mostly theologically conservative in a C.S. Lewis/N.T. Wright kind os way, with a little Brian McLaren mixed in. I’m “high church” in that I’m fond of liturgy and in that my parish calls itself Anglo-Catholic.

I could not be LCMS as women’s ordination and open communion are non-negotiables for me, and so is YEC not being required (I like the Catholic positions on science and creation). WELS is right out, way too fundy and sexist for me.
Click to expand...
I agree with much of what you said here. I don’t know anything about WELS so I can’t accuse them of anything, however. I tend to, in many ways, lean in that direction. I love N.T. Wright’s writings (although I don’t agree with all of them) and Mere Christianity is still my favorite Christian apologetic.

I do have a question for you though, aren’t you bothered at all by the more radical elements of the Episcopal Church and ELCA? I mean some of their bishops don’t even believe Jesus is God.
 
Stilldreamn said:
The LCMS has a faction that styles itself as O.W.N. (Ordain Women Now). So far although they are pretty vocal their position hasn’t gained much traction although I am sure they will be more active leading up the the Synod Convention in 2013.

Honestly, women’s ordination is a deal-breaker for me - it would be difficult to stay within the LCMS if that doctrine was passed.
Click to expand...
Very interesting. Because of the quotes mentioned above about women?
 
Stilldreamn said:
Honestly, women’s ordination is a deal-breaker for me - it would be difficult to stay within the LCMS if that doctrine was passed.
Click to expand...
I’m pretty “liberal” when it comes to seeing a large number of Christian churches as legitimate expressions of the faith; that is, I can see how people can have valid scriptural disagreements over issues like infant baptism, predestination vs. free-will, eternal security, the “real presence,” various end-times beliefs, and more. But some things, such as women’s ordination and the sanctioning of homosexuality, seem so against the clear teaching of the Bible that it boggles my mind that any Christian church would even debate the issue, let alone bring it up for a vote. To have such measures actually pass is just unbelievable to me.
 
jrtrent said:
I’m pretty “liberal” when it comes to seeing a large number of Christian churches as legitimate expressions of the faith; that is, I can see how people can have valid scriptural disagreements over issues like infant baptism, predestination vs. free-will, eternal security, the “real presence,” various end-times beliefs, and more. But some things, such as women’s ordination and the sanctioning of homosexuality, seem so against the clear teaching of the Bible that it boggles my mind that any Christian church would even debate the issue, let alone bring it up for a vote. To have such measures actually pass is just unbelievable to me.
Click to expand...
Sanctioning of homosexuality and abortion are on that list, too. Although the LCMS has a very soft policy on contraception, I wish they would take a firm stance against it.

I can’t think of any church that accepts homosexual conduct that did not precede that with women’s ordination.
 
Stilldreamn said:
Sanctioning of homosexuality and abortion are on that list, too. Although the LCMS has a very soft policy on contraception, I wish they would take a firm stance against it.

I can’t think of any church that accepts homosexual conduct that did not precede that with women’s ordination.
Click to expand...
Now that you mention it, I have but to agree.
 
In a nutshell:

The LCMS views Jesus as Savior.
Some ELCA churches view Jesus as Saviour, while some view Jesus as a Social Justice leader.

Basically, you can find very conservative ELCA churches, and some that are just plain crazy. Please don’t Google “ELCA Her Church” if you value your sanity and your blood pressure.

…

On a tangent:

Oddly enough, my old ELCA female pastor that married me and my wife was so otherwise conservative that she helped lead her church out of the ELCA when the ELCA leadership finally showed their non-biblical stripes these past few years even though it meant that she would have to step down after the transition.

For me, the existence of female pastors doesn’t bother me on an individual level- what really bothers me is that their existence indicates that the Church is voting on doctrine. Regardless of the outcome of a particular issue, laity indirectly voting on doctrine is root problem of many a church’s downfall.
 
The LCMS is frankly one of the most conservative protestant groups out there. I was LCMS .

Some questions in various posts :

On the intercommunion with others question. Formally communion is only to be shared with other LCMS and with other groups in “Pulpit and altar” relationship. However there is a pastoral exception and a lot happens under that. There are churches near here in LCMS that let anyone come up, even non lutherans, the notion was condemned but its still practiced anyway. There is presently at least one clergyman publicly communing at an ELCA parish. There actually is more.

On the question of womens ordination: Formally they are opposed, however a move is underway to open a large list of questions previously condemned up for discussion at all levels from national to parish and to always allow both sides to present. So far womens ordination is not in the list. Recently the president of the synod and other ranking members attended the ceremonies leading up to the installation of a LCMS pastor in a church that has an ordained female pastor, they are sharing the same altar and pulpit but thru a nuance its said its not pulpit and altar communion. Meanwhile a district of the LCMS in New England drew up documents creating its own local deaconess program, separate from the national program, and expressly allowing deaconesses to hold communion and preach so on and so forth. The synod leadership recently published on its own blog an article that included the argument that one can be a confessional lutheran, and remain conservative on the social issues, and still ordain women. So, despite the insistence and hopes of many, the issue is preparing to emerge again from the woodwork.

How to decide which traditions to use ? In observing during my time as an LCMS person the answer is simply when its helpful to whatever one is arguing in favor of. If its a hindrance then one decries tradition favoring scripture. I’m sure the folks holding the various positions would insist thats not a fair assessment… but it sure seemed that way to me.
 
bitznbitez said:
The LCMS is frankly one of the most conservative protestant groups out there. I was LCMS .

Some questions in various posts :

On the intercommunion with others question. Formally communion is only to be shared with other LCMS and with other groups in “Pulpit and altar” relationship. However there is a pastoral exception and a lot happens under that. There are churches near here in LCMS that let anyone come up, even non lutherans, the notion was condemned but its still practiced anyway. There is presently at least one clergyman publicly communing at an ELCA parish. There actually is more.

On the question of womens ordination: Formally they are opposed, however a move is underway to open a large list of questions previously condemned up for discussion at all levels from national to parish and to always allow both sides to present. So far womens ordination is not in the list. Recently the president of the synod and other ranking members attended the ceremonies leading up to the installation of a LCMS pastor in a church that has an ordained female pastor, they are sharing the same altar and pulpit but thru a nuance its said its not pulpit and altar communion. Meanwhile a district of the LCMS in New England drew up documents creating its own local deaconess program, separate from the national program, and expressly allowing deaconesses to hold communion and preach so on and so forth. The synod leadership recently published on its own blog an article that included the argument that one can be a confessional lutheran, and remain conservative on the social issues, and still ordain women. So, despite the insistence and hopes of many, the issue is preparing to emerge again from the woodwork.

How to decide which traditions to use ? In observing during my time as an LCMS person the answer is simply when its helpful to whatever one is arguing in favor of. If its a hindrance then one decries tradition favoring scripture. I’m sure the folks holding the various positions would insist thats not a fair assessment… but it sure seemed that way to me.
Click to expand...
I am familiar with the situations you mentioned, and it’s a very disheartening list of dirty laundry. As others have mentioned, with our polity even though you don’t vote on doctrine directly, you do vote on the synod officials who influence doctrine. And the LCMS has some history with an liberal outbreak (Seminex) although reform has kept it in check. So far.

Was there a particular point that made you decide to leave the LCMS for the RCC? Or just a gradual process of discernment?
 
Stilldreamn said:
Sanctioning of homosexuality and abortion are on that list, too. Although the LCMS has a very soft policy on contraception, I wish they would take a firm stance against it.

I can’t think of any church that accepts homosexual conduct that did not precede that with women’s ordination.
Click to expand...
It was my understanding the LCMS was very pro life. Maybe they are just against Abortion though? I always noticed in my area there were always signs put up by “Lutherans for Life” along with Catholic anti abortion signs, and these were usually done by LCMS churches. Maybe its just a Nebraska thing since almost everybody, no matter what church is fairly conservative.
 
Stilldreamn said:
Was there a particular point that made you decide to leave the LCMS for the RCC? Or just a gradual process of discernment?
Click to expand...
For me it was gradual. I didn’t start out as LCMS. I started out SDA → NonDenom/Baptistland → LCMS → Roman Catholic. So its pretty much a long slide. For me it really started with Wisdom of Solomon 2, and also Romans use of Wisdom. It took a while to put it all together. I was ready to swim the tiber before my wife was but this year we both come together. For her a big part was the IL adoption issue, combined with a study led by our pastor on the topic of homosexuality which completely unsettled us.

One of the things I observed about the LCMS -vs- ELCA, whether correct or not I don’t know for sure, is that when you look at where their populations are larger the LCMS is more heavily weighted in the red states, vs ELCA more heavily in the blue, the reasons are historic. On a variety of recent issues they seemed ultimately to move in tandem with the overall culture but with the ELCA usually leading.

We both hold the LCMS in a positive light. We both want them to hold the line on the social issues of our day. But we weren’t left with a confidence, a hope but not a surety.
 
benjammin said:
It was my understanding the LCMS was very pro life. Maybe they are just against Abortion though? I always noticed in my area there were always signs put up by “Lutherans for Life” along with Catholic anti abortion signs, and these were usually done by LCMS churches. Maybe its just a Nebraska thing since almost everybody, no matter what church is fairly conservative.
Click to expand...
They can and do support the antiabortion, and adoption efforts. The Synod leadership has stood with the Catholic bishops in opposing HHS Mandate etc. As recently as 4 years ago the LCMS website laid out the Synods position ( CTCR opinion I think ) against contraception. Yet at the same time either this last convention or the one before an overture to the national convention to stress the opposition to contraception was refused consideration by a sub committee on the stated grounds the LCMS “has never had an official position on contraception”. A rather novel view hinging on what defines “official”.
 
Stilldreamn said:
I can’t think of any church that accepts homosexual conduct that did not precede that with women’s ordination.
Click to expand...
There isn’t one, and the reason is not coincidental. To fully understand it one must actually read “femminist/womanist/etc. theology”. The entry point is achieved by fanning the flame of gender inequality, but those supporting the move are not simply women doing theology. The core of the womanist theology that I have read is the belief/insistence that the entire church and judaism before it was patriarchal, patriarchal is bad, thus all that these have done is tainted. This extends to descriptions of deity, to the very definition of the canon, and ultimately extends to opening up the ancient faiths. It builds on a coalition of all that has ever been opposed by the church as having been “oppressed” and therefore in need of welcoming and encouragement. The goal is the complete dismantlement of the traditional faith and replacing it with something new and improved.
 
I was a member of the ELCA for a large part of my life in Eastern Pennsylvania where there are ELCA churches on evey street corner, very few LC-MS churches. My experience in the ELCA is that they are very liturgical but with lousy theology starting in the 1970’s. The churches that I attended were fortunate enough to have male pastors, but smaller churches had female pastors forced on them, my wife’s former church had this happen by the local the local synod. It is true that there is a wide view in the LC-MS congregrations that differs over the official policies on liturgy usage and closed communion due to the church growth movement. Some think that the only way to grow a church is to have a stage, praise bands, open communion, and act like Pentecostal wannabes. My church and pastor takes a different approach in that if the Holy Spirit wants our church to grow, it will grow, we don’t have to help the Holy Spirit. We are a liturgical and a confessional congregration which practices closed communion. In the ELCA, I could be a member of the Masonic Lodge, which I was, but when I joined the LC-MS, I gave up that membership because the LC-MS forbids such membership.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top