What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation? Part 2

[powerofk]

Okay, I’m not getting what your trying to say. I think the major part of our differences hinge on how we interpret James since Catholics invariably go to this portion of scripture to explain the plan of salvation.

So I would like to pick this apart one step at a time if you will.

I see that so far we agree that works don’t save us. (Pelagianism)

But there is some way in which our actions (works) enter in.

So the first question is: Do our actions add to our salvation in a positive way?
Or: Do they add to what Christ has done?
Do they add further justification?
Or something else?

My understanding has generally been that true faith compels works, and works increase faith. In other words, if one has true faith, one’s faith will drive him/her to do the works (in love) that come from that faith. At the same time, the works that one does help build the Church in several ways, and build the faith of the one doing the works, the faith of the Church community at large, and draw more people who are outside the Church to the Church and therefore to Christ. Our mission is to bring the Gospel to as many people in our individual lives as possible. For it is only in accepting the Gospel (which includes being baptized) that one accepts the grace that God has freely given. Yet our works must match our preaching (and generally precede them) to convince others of the Truth. And, the works must be done with the supernatural charity (love) that comes only through God’s grace. Works done without this charity are not only ineffectual, they are destestable to God.

 

[zz912]

Okay, I’m not getting what your trying to say. I think the major part of our differences hinge on how we interpret James since Catholics invariably go to this portion of scripture to explain the plan of salvation.

So I would like to pick this apart one step at a time if you will.

I see that so far we agree that works don’t save us. (Pelagianism)

Correct.

But there is some way in which our actions (works) enter in.

Correct

So the first question is: Do our actions add to our salvation in a positive way?

Yes. We must actually live out the commands of Christ to attain salvation. And the more we do this, the more Christ has promised to reward us in Heaven for doing so. As we see in the parable of the talents, to those who produced much, even more was given them.

Or: Do they add to what Christ has done?
Do they add further justification?
Or something else?

Here’s the tricky part. We must take Christ’s perfect and complete sacrifice, and apply it to ourselves. That is why we must “work out our salvation in fear and trembling”, and why Paul said he was completing what was lacking in Christ’s sacrifice.

We aren’t making the sacrifice needed, but applying it to ourselves. The New Covenant has responsibilities and requirements that we must carry out. Otherwise we will not receive salvation.

 

[eazyduzit]

Correct.

Correct

Yes. We must actually live out the commands of Christ to attain salvation. And the more we do this, the more Christ has promised to reward us in Heaven for doing so. As we see in the parable of the talents, to those who produced much, even more was given them.

Here’s the tricky part. We must take Christ’s perfect and complete sacrifice, and apply it to ourselves. That is why we must “work out our salvation in fear and trembling”, and why Paul said he was completing what was lacking in Christ’s sacrifice.

We aren’t making the sacrifice needed, but applying it to ourselves. The New Covenant has responsibilities and requirements that we must carry out. Otherwise we will not receive salvation.

You responded that “works” do add to salvation. That would be a problem for me. How can I confidently relate to the Holy One, not knowing where I stand? How can the HS dwell in an unsaved or unrighteous man? How can I know when I have done enough? How can I bring my prayer to the throne?

Paul indeed says to “work out your own salvation” He does not say “work for your salvation”.
We work from salvation, not for it.
Paul tells us to put on the “helmet of salvation”. This would not be effective armour if it had holes in it. I must be assured that my salvation is complete or it is no defense from the enemy at all.

Your definition of salvation is too open ended for me.I have done what Jesus said in Jn5:24, “Truly, truly I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life [is now saved] and shall not come unto condemnation, but is passed from death unto life”. (what Salvation means)

Are you saying this is not salvation? Are we deceived? Is Jesus mistaken?
Is Christ my righteousness or my work is my righteousness?
You used the word “reward”. Is it a reward or a gift?

I’m still not getting it.

 

[zz912]

You responded that “works” do add to salvation. That would be a problem for me. How can I confidently relate to the Holy One, not knowing where I stand? How can the HS dwell in an unsaved or unrighteous man? How can I know when I have done enough? How can I bring my prayer to the throne?

Did Jesus teach about the parable of the talents or not? Did His “good and faithful” servants bring different amounts of “talents” (i.e. good works) to present Him? Did all three of the good servants enjoy the Master’s love? Did they all get rewarded the same? (hint: no). They all got salvation, but were rewarded differently.

You can confidently go to Confession when you have sinned a mortal sin, and then confidently walk up to receive the King of Heaven in His full Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist. We bring our prayers to His throne at every Mass, where the liturgy we see in Revelation we are united to in the Mass.

The HS doesn’t dwell in an unsaved or unrighteous man. Where did you get the idea I said He does? When we sin mortally, we kill the life of grace in ourselves. We must go to Confession to restore this life.

How can you if you have done enough? You simply do the works the Father presents for you to do. You pray about it and ask for wisdom to see what He wants and wills. And then you go do it. Until you die there are more works to do.

Paul indeed says to “work out your own salvation” He does not say “work for your salvation”.
We work from salvation, not for it.

You are changing Scripture. Paul doesn’t say we work “from” salvation. He says to work out salvation. Why are you changing Scripture?

Paul tells us to put on the “helmet of salvation”. This would not be effective armour if it had holes in it. I must be assured that my salvation is complete or it is no defense from the enemy at all.

There are no holes. You can be assured that salvation is effective as long as you abide by the commandments of God and abide by His New Covenant. Jesus didn’t set up a one-and-done salvation. We must pick up our crosses daily. You don’t get to decide how the New Covenant is structured.

Your definition of salvation is too open ended for me.I have done what Jesus said in Jn5:24, “Truly, truly I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life [is now saved] and shall not come unto condemnation, but is passed from death unto life”. (what Salvation means)

It’s not my definition, but the Church’s. And the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, not you or I. And you can’t take one single verse and reduce the New Covenant down to what you want. Just a little bit later, in John 6, Jesus lays out requirements He has for salvation. Do you ignore those commands?

Are you saying this is not salvation? Are we deceived? Is Jesus mistaken?

Yes, you are deceived. You have taken one verse out of context, crafted a theology, and ignore the rest of Scripture. Jesus lays out lots of commands. Which of them can you ignore or refuse to do and be saved? I’m interested in your answer.

Is Christ my righteousness or my work is my righteousness?

Christ. Why do you separate His works that Christians must complete from Him? Are the works of God optional?

You used the word “reward”. Is it a reward or a gift?

Salvation is a gift freely given. But we must cooperate with that gift. It’s not YOUR covenant, it is His.

I’m still not getting it.

I hope I’ve cleared it up some. It really boils down to the question of are God’s commands optional?

 

[Michael68]

Imo, from what I’ve seen, protestants believe after saying a prayer, shaking a preachers hand means they are saved and they don’t need to do anything afterwards. I don’t get it.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Imo, from what I’ve seen, protestants believe after saying a prayer, shaking a preachers hand means they are saved and they don’t need to do anything afterwards. I don’t get it.

Not even close

 

[JustaServant]

Imo, from what I’ve seen, protestants believe after saying a prayer, shaking a preachers hand means they are saved and they don’t need to do anything afterwards. I don’t get it.

Wrong.

 

[eazyduzit]

Did Jesus teach about the parable of the talents or not? Did His “good and faithful” servants bring different amounts of “talents” (i.e. good works) to present Him? Did all three of the good servants enjoy the Master’s love? Did they all get rewarded the same? (hint: no). They all got salvation, but were rewarded differently.

You can confidently go to Confession when you have sinned a mortal sin, and then confidently walk up to receive the King of Heaven in His full Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist. We bring our prayers to His throne at every Mass, where the liturgy we see in Revelation we are united to in the Mass.

The HS doesn’t dwell in an unsaved or unrighteous man. Where did you get the idea I said He does? When we sin mortally, we kill the life of grace in ourselves. We must go to Confession to restore this life.

How can you if you have done enough? You simply do the works the Father presents for you to do. You pray about it and ask for wisdom to see what He wants and wills. And then you go do it. Until you die there are more works to do.

You are changing Scripture. Paul doesn’t say we work “from” salvation. He says to work out salvation. Why are you changing Scripture?

There are no holes. You can be assured that salvation is effective as long as you abide by the commandments of God and abide by His New Covenant. Jesus didn’t set up a one-and-done salvation. We must pick up our crosses daily. You don’t get to decide how the New Covenant is structured.

It’s not my definition, but the Church’s. And the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, not you or I. And you can’t take one single verse and reduce the New Covenant down to what you want. Just a little bit later, in John 6, Jesus lays out requirements He has for salvation. Do you ignore those commands?

Yes, you are deceived. You have taken one verse out of context, crafted a theology, and ignore the rest of Scripture. Jesus lays out lots of commands. Which of them can you ignore or refuse to do and be saved? I’m interested in your answer.

Christ. Why do you separate His works that Christians must complete from Him? Are the works of God optional?

Salvation is a gift freely given. But we must cooperate with that gift. It’s not YOUR covenant, it is His.

I hope I’ve cleared it up some. It really boils down to the question of are God’s commands optional?

So what you are saying is that the Catholic must be responsible to fulfill all the commandments and duties to be counted righteous?
I’m afraid i can’t even perfectly fulfill even the first commandment. I would fail miserably if i tried to relate to God as a Catholic.

 

[eazyduzit]

Imo, from what I’ve seen, protestants believe after saying a prayer, shaking a preachers hand means they are saved and they don’t need to do anything afterwards. I don’t get it.

No one says that’s all you need to do. Praying a prayer does not save. It is repentance and trusting in Christ that saves. It is what you believe in the heart and then confess with the mouth. Rm10:10

 

[Seekerjn316]

Imo, from what I’ve seen, protestants believe after saying a prayer, shaking a preachers hand means they are saved and they don’t need to do anything afterwards. I don’t get it.

You must have difficulty seeing…your statement concerning prayer is completely false…same with "they don’t need to do anything afterwards " false statement…are statements like these "Catholic apologetics "?

 

[zz912]

So what you are saying is that the Catholic must be responsible to fulfill all the commandments and duties to be counted righteous?
I’m afraid i can’t even perfectly fulfill even the first commandment. I would fail miserably if i tried to relate to God as a Catholic.

Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Does your denomination ignore this verse?

 

[zz912]

You must have difficulty seeing…your statement concerning prayer is completely false…same with "they don’t need to do anything afterwards " false statement…are statements like these "Catholic apologetics "?

While it doesn’t apply to all Protestants, there is a sizable group that DO believe exactly as he has said. The entire OSAS belief basically boils down to that.

 

[zz912]

No one says that’s all you need to do. Praying a prayer does not save. It is repentance and trusting in Christ that saves. It is what you believe in the heart and then confess with the mouth. Rm10:10

Is that the only requirement?

What about the other commands that God gives? Are they optional? Can a Christian refuse to obey them and be saved?

 

[Seekerjn316]

While it doesn’t apply to all Protestants, there is a sizable group that DO believe exactly as he has said. The entire OSAS belief basically boils down to that.

I seriously doubt if they would echo your U derstandi of.eternal.security/perseverance/election of the saints…I would daresay they would listen to your “take” on it as “how the heck did you come to that conclusion!!!”
As stated in the post I. No way reflects their beliefs co ernu g some unique Calvinistic doctrine.

 

[coachkfan1]

I would say the main difference is that there IS NO salvation outside the Catholic Church. This is still part of the Catechism despite attempts in the 60’s to water it down.

 

[michaelhutto]

It saddens me to read all the strife in this thread. All the talk of baptism to be saved. I ask you what of the two men who were crusfied with Christ.One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Now we all know he did not climb down from his cross get it done and get back up there. I have read about baptism by blood and spirit. I would say these answers are weak at best. were you not told byJohn the Baptist"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. I would ask you which is more holy the Sabbath day or baptism? We need to remember the words of Christ Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The act of baptism is a sign you have accepted God’s grace. I do not feel that baptism is a requirement of that Grace. Always your brother in Christ, Michael.

 

[michaelhutto]

If the question is about salvation I would ask you to remember the book of Acts chapter 16:26Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everyone’s chains came loose.The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped.But Paul shouted, “Don’t harm yourself! We are all here!” The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household."Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized.The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God–he and his whole household. Faith is first, Baptism is a physical act of our repentance, and faith in Christ to save us from our sins, and good only comes from our Father who is in Heaven. Only good works done in faith to God lay up treasures in heaven. Faith is required by God, but if you truly have faith-you will also have God’s love and that Love will bring about good and righteous works. As was said in James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. In short faith brings about good works. Just as death is the natural outcome when the spirit leaves the body, so to faith brings about good & pleasing works to the Lord. Your Brother by our Lord’s Blood, Michael.

 

[zz912]

It saddens me to read all the strife in this thread.

Iron sharpens iron. These issues are important and need to be hashed out.

All the talk of baptism to be saved.

Scripture is quite clear about it. Jesus and Peter are blatantly clear about it.

I ask you what of the two men who were crusfied with Christ. One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Now we all know he did not climb down from his cross get it done and get back up there. I have read about baptism by blood and spirit. I would say these answers are weak at best.

Your own requirements that you have created for salvation falter. If it takes belief in Jesus (a mental assent, no works) then how were Moses and Elijah saved? We see them at the Transfiguration, so they contradict your requirements for salvation that you have set up.

Baptism of desire and blood merely follows the logic that God has saved people outside of the sacraments, but it assumes they would get baptized IF they were able to do so. If you get hit by a bus on the way to being baptized, God won’t withhold salvation from you. This doesn’t mean that baptism isn’t necessary for salvation.

were you not told byJohn the Baptist"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Sounds like John is pretty adamant that baptism is necessary. Or do you think you get to Heaven without the Holy Spirit?

I would ask you which is more holy the Sabbath day or baptism?

Baptism.

We need to remember the words of Christ Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

And you were required to obey the Sabbath if you could. Just as you are required to be baptized if it is available to you. So pulling a goat out of a ditch on the Sabbath doesn’t violate the Sabbath, nor does healing someone on the Sabbath. But otherwise, you WERE required to obey the Sabbath.

The act of baptism is a sign you have accepted God’s grace.

Scripture says that baptism saves you. That’s more than a sign.

I do not feel that baptism is a requirement of that Grace.

Truth is not dependent on your feelings, and I’m not trusting my eternal soul based on your feelings. I’ll trust the pillar and foundation of truth.

Always your brother in Christ, Michael.

Likewise!

 

[zz912]

If the question is about salvation I would ask you to remember the book of Acts chapter 16:26Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everyone’s chains came loose.The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped.But Paul shouted, “Don’t harm yourself! We are all here!” The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household."Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized.The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God–he and his whole household. Faith is first, Baptism is a physical act of our repentance, and faith in Christ to save us from our sins, and good only comes from our Father who is in Heaven. Only good works done in faith to God lay up treasures in heaven. Faith is required by God, but if you truly have faith-you will also have God’s love and that Love will bring about good and righteous works. As was said in James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. In short faith brings about good works. Just as death is the natural outcome when the spirit leaves the body, so to faith brings about good & pleasing works to the Lord. Your Brother by our Lord’s Blood, Michael.

Works are required for salvation. You need both faith AND works to cooperate with God’s grace. The demons believe, and are not saved.

Notice in your example, IMMEDIATELY they are baptized. Seems pretty important. What would have happened if they refused to be baptized? Why were they baptized IMMEDIATELY?

Your position is dangerously close to claiming that if you refuse to do good works, you will still be saved. It also seems like you are claiming that Christians have no choice but to do good works, that they lose their free will. This is contrary to the teaching of God. Jesus was clear to warn us, REMAIN in Him. If He has to warn us to REMAIN in Him, then we must have the option of leaving Him.

 

[michaelhutto]

I apologize if I was not clear dear brother, yes once you have become a member of the Church you should be baptized this was said by the Lord, and I agree with you that if you are hit by a bus on your way you will be saved by faith alone. Just as I believe someone who has never heard The Good News till their death bed, but accepted God’s grace and the sacrifice of our Lord Christ would also be saved. As for free will yes it is up to you to do good works, but anyone with Christ in their hearts will want to serve our Father & please Him. So then good works are the natural outcome of our faith. Otherwise we only pay lip service to God -His son Jesus the Christ and never had Him within. So in short I agree with you baptism should happen as quickly as can be done. Now as for Moses I do not really know. I would think & this is only opinion thay had faith in the conning Messiah of God. They may not have knew his name but they believed in Him.I believe the core is faith. Baptisem and all the good works in the world do not please our Father without faith in His son, and Love in our hearts. Your brother in our Lord’s blood Michael.