What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[In_His_Grace]

Grace -

Based on your understanding of history, when did the Catholic Church depart from what it claims to be?

PnP

The important question for me is when did the Catholic Church 2015 begin in history, certainly nothing even remotely resembling the Catholic Church 2015 is to be found in scripture. I originally brought up papal infallibility. I would say the power of the papacy really began to take root in the early middle ages after the complete collapse of the Western Roman Empire.

 

[JMM1957]

The important question for me is when did the Catholic Church 2015 begin in history, certainly nothing even remotely resembling the Catholic Church 2015 is to be found in scripture. I originally brought up papal infallibility. I would say the power of the papacy really began to take root in the early middle ages after the complete collapse of the Western Roman Empire.

What is the Catholic Church 2015 that you are referring to? Do you mean specifically the papacy or Catholic teachings in general? I need to know the answer to this before I can attempt to respond further.

 

[zz912]

What gave me the idea is your accusation that i am embracing a “Do nothing” soteriology. It is the scripture that implies that it must either of works or of faith (Rm.11:6),not a mixture. Jn.6:29 tells me that faith itself in the work lc God.

James had many who held to this false belief, and he directly condemned faith alone. He was quite clear you need both.

1.From much study of this forum it seems like Catholics believe that their merit and the merit of the saints play a part or count towards one’s righteousness, depending on who you ask. No, I don’t think Catholics believe they’re saving themselves, but many seem to think it’s a cooperative effort.
Faith alone means I am trusting in the finished work of Christ alone as my righteousness. There maybe a certain amount of risk taking to this, bjt it expresses confidence in Christ and His promises. I have confidence that He alone is the solid rock. I do not see, but i walk by faith.

Are the promises of Christ unconditional? Or does he set some requirements for them?

2.The requirement for salvation is purposely simple,so that everyone is able and no one could make the complaint that it was too difficult for them. True repentance and trust in Christ is all that God requires. However,ones heart must be right. If you were to hold an unforgiveness against someone, you will not be forgiven by God.

Is this all that is required? No actions are required? Could you list out some of the requirements that Jesus gives?

3.God’s judgement is based on His righteousness. He will even judge every idle word that men speak. However, the sins of believers have already been judged at the cross. God cannot judge them again. However, our works will be judged amd i believe many will be disappointed because their work although good,was not authored by God. There needs to be no “particular judgment” at death since it has already been established whose you are even in life. In life, a person is owned either by God or by Satan. At death, either the angels or the devils will come to claim their own. You have no choice in the matter then

.

How would we be judged on our works? That’s contrary to the doctrine of faith alone.

 

[zz912]

The important question for me is when did the Catholic Church 2015 begin in history, certainly nothing even remotely resembling the Catholic Church 2015 is to be found in scripture. I originally brought up papal infallibility. I would say the power of the papacy really began to take root in the early middle ages after the complete collapse of the Western Roman Empire.

Funny, but it was study of Scripture that brought me to the Church. Because the Church is thoroughly supported by Scripture, and vice versa.

And I gave you quotes from two early Church Fathers that showed papal infallibility. You conveniently discounted them as not being early enough. But they were clearly before the middle ages, so your theory here is clearly wrong.

 

[JMM1957]

God’s judgement is based on His righteousness. He will even judge every idle word that men speak. However, the sins of believers have already been judged at the cross. God cannot judge them again. However, our works will be judged amd i believe many will be disappointed because their work although good,was not authored by God. There needs to be no “particular judgment” at death since it has already been established whose you are even in life. In life, a person is owned either by God or by Satan. At death, either the angels or the devils will come to claim their own. You have no choice in the matter then.

The sins of not only believers but non-believers was taken upon Jesus at the cross (John 2:2). This was an action by God through Jesus to forgive all of our sins, once and for all, providing we come to a knowledge of Him, and continue to remain in Him, which means we do have some responsibility for maintaining a relationship with Him till death, which includes faith and works.

 

[PJM]

=In His Grace;13230334]Hi Porknpie,

I tried to convince myself from scripture and history that the Catholic Church is what she claims to be for 2 years, really wanted to believe this to be true but remain unconvinced based mainly on Holy Writ.

Blessings

Help me out here:

And HOLY Writ is what exactly IF NOT the inspired [unerring] WORDS of our God.

If you don’t accept the bible [a Catholic book by the way] how can you calim to be a Chcristian:shrug:

God Bless you my friend,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=In His Grace;13227606]Yes, one church Patrick. All Christians are part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

God bless you and give you His peace.

OK?

So where even one time does GOD ever accepted more than one set of Faiths beliefs?

And Did God wait for 1,500 YEARS and MArtin to make HIS set of Faith beliefs known?

May OUR God continue to guide you to HIS Truth my friend,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=In His Grace;13230334]Hi Porknpie,

I tried to convince myself from scripture and history that the Catholic Church is what she claims to be for 2 years, really wanted to believe this to be true but remain unconvinced based mainly on Holy Writ.

That’s the PROBLEM YOU tried to convince yourself [not allowing God to do HIS JOB]

Let’s start with how you view the authority of the Bible [a Catholic Book] and then lets discuss this from a NON-Christian source & a historical perspective. IF not for Catholicism there would be NO Christians

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Catholic_Church

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[In_His_Grace]

Funny, but it was study of Scripture that brought me to the Church. Because the Church is thoroughly supported by Scripture, and vice versa.

And I gave you quotes from two early Church Fathers that showed papal infallibility. You conveniently discounted them as not being early enough. But they were clearly before the middle ages, so your theory here is clearly wrong.

Cyprian of Carthage

“Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?” (Letters 59 [55], 14).

Augustine

“Rome has spoken; the case is concluded” (Sermons 131, 10).

“Number the bishops from **the See of Peter **itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is the rock against which the gates of Hell do not prevail.” (Psalm Against the Party of Donatus 18)

I’ve read Augustine’s Sermon 131 as well as other writings of Augustine. “Rome has spoken; the case is concluded” is a very misleading paraphrase of what he actually said and must be understood in context with the entire sermon. The concept of the primacy of the bishop of Rome let alone papal infallibility would have been completely foreign concepts to Augustine. I’m not very familiar with the writings of Cyprian of Carthage but I’ll do a little digging.

Thanks

 

[In_His_Grace]

=In His Grace;13230334]Hi Porknpie,

 

[JMM1957]

OK?

So where even one time does GOD ever accepted more than one set of Faiths beliefs?

And Did God wait for 1,500 YEARS and MArtin to make HIS set of Faith beliefs known?

May OUR God continue to guide you to HIS Truth my friend,

Patrick

“Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the result of their conduct, imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” Heb. 13:7-8. Did God tolerate more than one faith in the OT? Were not all Jews bound by the same God given law? Jesus was sent by his Father to accomplish a mission, part of which was to establish a Church that would preach salvation in His name to the ends of the earth. This Church founded by Jesus, which was known as the Catholic Church very early in the second century, was given a mission to do also, it being equipped with the teachings of the Lord, and the promise of the Holy Spirit to guide it. To think that the true Church spread nothing but innacurate teachings for 1500 years is nonsense. The fact is, many Protestant’s, Baptist’s, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and others use this belief to justify why their religions appeared so late in Christian history. They all believe that the one true Church was teaching error for 1500 years, and a new correct path needed to be taken. If all revealed Truth comes ONLY from the Bible, as many would agree, then please show me where it teaches that the Church established by Jesus Christ would go into error for 1500 years, or longer, and then be revived in later times by a new church or churches that would teach all truth, the way it was intended to be?

 

[In_His_Grace]

What is the Catholic Church 2015 that you are referring to? Do you mean specifically the papacy or Catholic teachings in general? I need to know the answer to this before I can attempt to respond further.

Any doctrine, dogma, etc. that doesn’t conform to scripture I am obliged to reject. I’ve been a sola scriptura guy all my life and I’m 60 years old.

Blessings

 

[JMM1957]

Any doctrine, dogma, etc. that doesn’t conform to scripture I am obliged to reject. I’ve been a sola scriptura guy all my life and I’m 60 years old.

Blessings

Are you saying you’re too old now to see it any differently?

 

[eazyduzit]

The sins of not only believers but non-believers was taken upon Jesus at the cross (John 2:2). This was an action by God through Jesus to forgive all of our sins, once and for all, providing we come to a knowledge of Him, and continue to remain in Him, which means we do have some responsibility for maintaining a relationship with Him till death, which includes faith and works.

Totally true that Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world.
But our relationship is never performance based.
It is always faith based.
In Gal.3:5 Paul asks(after having already separated faith from works in salvation, v.2) about the one who ministers- "He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you,doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
V.3- “Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect in the flesh?”
I do not wish to be counted foolish.

 

[eazyduzit]

James had many who held to this false belief, and he directly condemned faith alone. He was quite clear you need both.

Are the promises of Christ unconditional? Or does he set some requirements for them?

Is this all that is required? No actions are required? Could you list out some of the requirements that Jesus gives?

.

How would we be judged on our works? That’s contrary to the doctrine of faith alone.

James did not condemn “faith alone” . He also preached it . Jms.1:21b "…receive with meekness(without merits) the engrafted word,which is able (by itself) to save your souls.
This is plainly salvation by faith alone.

Then in v.12 James says" Blessed is the man that endures trials, for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life…"

In the Bible, “crowns” are rewards that are an addition to salvation which is the gift of God.

James understands the difference.

James says that for salvation, all one needs to do is receive the “word” by which he means the Gospel. Repentance would be assumed. Receive means to believe or trust.

For an illustration of what Jesus required, read the parable of the “lost son” Lk.15.

Faith “alone” is not contradictory to Judgement of works in 1Cor.3 Here we see that" Works" are burned , not souls. All who make it here are saved, but some lose their works and receive no treasure in heaven. They are as St. Peter said, “scarcely saved.”

Have a great day

 

[JMM1957]

Totally true that Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world.
But our relationship is never performance based.
It is always faith based.
In Gal.3:5 Paul asks(after having already separated faith from works in salvation, v.2) about the one who ministers- "He therefore that ministers to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you,doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
V.3- “Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect in the flesh?”
I do not wish to be counted foolish.

I agree, our relationship is not performance based, that would indicate that works were all that were required. We do not initially respond to God’s grace by doing works, we first have faith. However, “faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” James 2:17.

As for Abraham, “faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.” James 2:22.

“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

“For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” James 2:26.

It has been argued by some that there is a contradiction between Paul and James on faith and works, however, we know that the Bible does not contradict itself and both Paul and James were inspired by the same Holy Spirit. So we must acknowledge that they both were just giving different viewpoints, not opposing viewpoints, and their points of emphasis were not exactly the same, which may have been due to individual congregational concerns.

 

[PRmerger]

If Catholics are Christians what are the steps they take to receive salvation?
Protestants believe Romans 10:9 & 10. Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and you shall be saved.

Catholics believe in taking the Word of God in its entirety, not just 1 verse, taken out of context and extrapolated to be the entirety of the kerygma.

Here’s how Catholics believe we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (Matt: 25:42)

 

[PRmerger]

Any doctrine, dogma, etc. that doesn’t conform to scripture I am obliged to reject.

This is very Catholic!

I’ve been a sola scriptura guy all my life and I’m 60 years old.

Blessings

What’s ironic is that Sola Scriptura is not found in Scripture.

You heard a man preach it, who heard another man preach it, who heard another man preach it…but no one ever read “I will profess and believe things about God that are ONLY found in the Bible” in a single page of the Bible.

 

[JMM1957]

James did not condemn “faith alone” . He also preached it . Jms.1:21b "…receive with meekness(without merits) the engrafted word,which is able (by itself) to save your souls.
This is plainly salvation by faith alone.

Sorry easy, but I don’t agree with you here. James 2:24 clearly states,“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James did not preach “faith alone”. Your quote of James 1:21 is not saying “faith alone”, you yourself added the words in parenthesis (by itself), it actually says, “welcome the word that has been planted in you and is able to save your souls.” Why are you adding to Scripture to make your point?

If you read further, James 1:22-25, this also speaks of “being doers of the Word and not just hearers.” Being a “hearer only” can be compared to one who has faith, but no works. Faith comes first, and faith inspires us to do works, we are then complete when we have both working together.

Rom. 2:6:8 “who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.” Note that a person’s works will be judged, and can lead to eternal life OR wrath and fury. So we see that works are an integral part of our response to God’s grace along with faith, and we will be judged accordingly.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Are you saying you’re too old now to see it any differently?

My body isn’t what it used to be but my mind is as fit as it ever was. I’m always open to God’s truth no matter where it leads me.