What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[PRmerger]

I try to listen , and answer according to the truth , sorry if I missed something .

I wasn’t talking about you either, Star.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes. I have reported several posters who were not here to dialogue–they were “hit and run” posters. They would post their objection to Catholicism, and then run away, ne’er to return to address the refutations we offered.

Clearly, their intention is only to thwart the faith, not to have an enlightening discourse.

Folks! If you’re not a hit and run poster, then I wasn’t talking about you.

If you pose a question/response, and respond to the refutation, even if it takes several days, you’re not guilty of being a hit and run poster.

If you’re here to dialogue, then you’re not a hit and run poster.

If you post something, then leave, go to another thread, post something, leave, go to another thread, leave, come back in 2 months to post another comment, and in your heart you have no intention of discourse and simply want to attack another’s comments…THEN you are a hit and run poster.

 

[eazyduzit]

Correct, you submit to a magisterium for knowing the Christian faith. It may be your particular denomination, or it may be yourself. But you do submit to a magisterium. My question is where did they get their authority?

Every question here always seems to eventually get down to what authority do you go to and my authority is older than your authority etc. But if the truth we are taking about actually makes a difference in peoples lives, then we should be able to observe the effects of it.
Always taking everything to an authority claim seems artificial. Jesus said “you will know them by there fruits,…a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.” Thus, it should be possible to affirm what is right by observing the results. The Gospel should be evident by what it does if it is true. It should result in righteous living and a true love of God and others and a dislike for sin,
rather than a law-keeping mentality. All the fruits of the spirit should be evident. And then the gifts of the Spirit should be something we we should eventually see and observe. People are lead to maturity and not stagnation. Jesus set an example of what true ministry should look like. People were healed, delivered, set free and saved. Peace and unity was the result. But controversy and criticism and accusations came also. If your ministry doesn’t have critics then it’s probably not true. As an example, some of the extreme forms of prosperity teaching have not been good because they tend to produce greed and strife, not peace and contentment. But in examining the ministry of Billy Graham, I see true gospel results. It is hard to argue with that although because of his Baptist roots his ministry was lacking in the miraculous as compared to Jesus, although changed lives do count as miracles too.

All I am way saying is that there are other ways to confirm the Word of God other than authority claims.

 

[PRmerger]

Every question here always seems to eventually get down to what authority do you go to and my authority is older than your authority etc. But if the truth we are taking about actually makes a difference in peoples lives, then we should be able to observe the effects of it.
Always taking everything to an authority claim seems artificial. Jesus said “you will know them by there fruits,…a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.”

Yes, He did say this.

Thus, it should be possible to affirm what is right by observing the results.

But your conclusion does not follow.

3 words: Latter Day Saints.

The Mormons are the most Christian group I’ve ever encountered. They are nice. They are kind. They do not gossip. They help others.

But that does not, in any way, shape or form, affirm that their theology is right.

NB: Please do not offer “Well, here’s an example of a Mormon who wasn’t helpful!” Point remains: Mormons, as a whole, are the kindest, nicest, most helpful Believers. They are an example of “good fruit”…

but I wouldn’t choose my theology based on that fruit.

 

[PRmerger]

All I am way saying is that there are other ways to confirm the Word of God other than authority claims.

Can you offer what way you confirm the Word of God–the Epistle to the Hebrews?

 

[JMM1957]

Yes, He did say this.

But your conclusion does not follow.

3 words: Latter Day Saints.

The Mormons are the most Christian group I’ve ever encountered. They are nice. They are kind. They do not gossip. They help others.

But that does not, in any way, shape or form, affirm that their theology is right.

NB: Please do not offer “Well, here’s an example of a Mormon who wasn’t helpful!” Point remains: Mormons, as a whole, are the kindest, nicest, most helpful Believers. They are an example of “good fruit”…

but I wouldn’t choose my theology based on that fruit.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not considered Christian, but I have to say, that the ones that I have encountered in the workplace and those that come to the door seem to be very good, devoted people also, but then, there is the theology issue with them too.

 

[PRmerger]

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not considered Christian, but I have to say, that the ones that I have encountered in the workplace and those that come to the door seem to be very good, devoted people also, but then, there is the theology issue with them too.

Yes. If we use the canon “If they are really good people their theology is correct” to discern truth, then we should be Mormons or JWs.

And if we use the canon “If they are sinful people their theology is wrong”, then that means that we shouldn’t be Christians at all because the Apostles had some rotten fruit there.

 

[rcwitness]

Yes. If we use the canon “If they are really good people their theology is correct” to discern truth, then we should be Mormons or JWs.

And if we use the canon “If they are sinful people their theology is wrong”, then that means that we shouldn’t be Christians at all because the Apostles had some rotten fruit there.

Right, not to mention “there is only one who is good”.

It is God who knows how much someone is truly obeying Him.

Some people are tested much different than others. Some people have much less awareness than others.

I believe the Church has the ability to Confirm matters of faith and morals. Yet, there is the reality of our personal faith being between us and God. They have harmony.

 

[JMM1957]

Every question here always seems to eventually get down to what authority do you go to and my authority is older than your authority etc. But if the truth we are taking about actually makes a difference in peoples lives, then we should be able to observe the effects of it.
Always taking everything to an authority claim seems artificial. Jesus said “you will know them by there fruits,…a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.” Thus, it should be possible to affirm what is right by observing the results. The Gospel should be evident by what it does if it is true. It should result in righteous living and a true love of God and others and a dislike for sin,
rather than a law-keeping mentality. All the fruits of the spirit should be evident. And then the gifts of the Spirit should be something we we should eventually see and observe. People are lead to maturity and not stagnation. Jesus set an example of what true ministry should look like. People were healed, delivered, set free and saved. Peace and unity was the result. But controversy and criticism and accusations came also. If your ministry doesn’t have critics then it’s probably not true. As an example, some of the extreme forms of prosperity teaching have not been good because they tend to produce greed and strife, not peace and contentment. But in examining the ministry of Billy Graham, I see true gospel results. It is hard to argue with that although because of his Baptist roots his ministry was lacking in the miraculous as compared to Jesus, although changed lives do count as miracles too.

All I am way saying is that there are other ways to confirm the Word of God other than authority claims.

My opinion about authority is this, our sin nature is what gives the person an aversion to authority, whether it be human institutions, or God’s spoken authority in the Bible. We just don’t like being told what to do by someone else, we like to exercise our own freedom of choice, when and where we want. I don’t look at the Magisterium as being a controlling force in the Church, as certainly some do, I look at it as giving me more freedom. Freedom to not have to constantly be justifying the Church’s teachings in my own mind, and concerning myself with whether or not the Church will do a 180 on a faith or moral issue, as many denominations have had to deal with in recent times. Resting in the arms of the Church’s teachings gives me peace, and allows me to just concentrate on improving my relationship with Our Lord and with others, and doing the Lord’s work of spreading the Truth of the Gospel message.

 

[benhur]

Correct, you submit to a magisterium for knowing the Christian faith. It may be your particular denomination, or it may be yourself. But you do submit to a magisterium. My question is where did they get their authority?

They get their authority from where all authority comes from, God. Now any falsehoods projected have no authority (authorship) from God.

 

[PRmerger]

They get their authority from where all authority comes from, God.

Very Catholic, this!

The magisterium’s authority is not independent, but rather God-given.

 

[rcwitness]

They get their authority from where all authority comes from, God. Now any falsehoods projected have no authority (authorship) from God.

I understand you don’t believe in Church infallibility. We’ve hashed through this some. But what you say doesn’t seem very logical to me. How do we determine a falsehood?

Now I don’t believe the Church expects us to rely on her for every personal matter of faith, but that what she has professed, cannot be rejected or contradicted.

The canon of Scripture is a great example.

 

[benhur]

I understand you don’t believe in Church infallibility. We’ve hashed through this some. But what you say doesn’t seem very logical to me. How do we determine a falsehood?

Now I don’t believe the Church expects us to rely on her for every personal matter of faith, but that what she has professed, cannot be rejected or contradicted.

The canon of Scripture is a great example.

OK rc fair . I find it logical based on other covenants. All show God to be infallible and perfect on His end. Our end has been with the good, bad, and ugly, all of them. All covenants do what they were supposed to do.The OT and her promises thru the one true Israel fulfilled.

Blessings

 

[eazyduzit]

Yes, He did say this.

But your conclusion does not follow.

3 words: Latter Day Saints.

The Mormons are the most Christian group I’ve ever encountered. They are nice. They are kind. They do not gossip. They help others.

But that does not, in any way, shape or form, affirm that their theology is right.

NB: Please do not offer “Well, here’s an example of a Mormon who wasn’t helpful!” Point remains: Mormons, as a whole, are the kindest, nicest, most helpful Believers. They are an example of “good fruit”…

but I wouldn’t choose my theology based on that fruit.

I will offer you a real answer from the Bible (not my answer). 2Tm. 3:5 “They will hold to an outward form of godliness but deny its power. Stay away from such people.” (ISV)

You will not find the power of the HS in a Mormon meeting. No one will be healed or delivered. No one will prophesy. You will not hear a message in tongues with interpretation.
No power, no HS.
Secondly, they are basically law-keepers. This is not a demonstration of faith either.
Even most atheists are good people.

When Jesus began His ministry, how could people tell if He was from God or not? Some said He was of the devil. What was His proof?

 

[eazyduzit]

My opinion about authority is this, our sin nature is what gives the person an aversion to authority, whether it be human institutions, or God’s spoken authority in the Bible. We just don’t like being told what to do by someone else, we like to exercise our own freedom of choice, when and where we want. I don’t look at the Magisterium as being a controlling force in the Church, as certainly some do, I look at it as giving me more freedom. Freedom to not have to constantly be justifying the Church’s teachings in my own mind, and concerning myself with whether or not the Church will do a 180 on a faith or moral issue, as many denominations have had to deal with in recent times. Resting in the arms of the Church’s teachings gives me peace, and allows me to just concentrate on improving my relationship with Our Lord and with others, and doing the Lord’s work of spreading the Truth of the Gospel message.

The real freedom is that which comes to man from God’s eternal word i.e. the Bible.
Armed with this true and unshakeable knowledge one will not then be held in bondage by any errors propagated by man such as same sex marriage or abortion or unproductive social ideas such as communism. Or such bondage as worshipping false gods.

Jesus said you will know the truth and the truth will make you free. In 8:32. But you ask, How will I know it? Jesus answer in v. 31 is “if you continue in My word”. One must continually apply himself to God’s word. There is no “easy” way.

I don’t have a personal aversion to authority as you suggest. What I do have is a healthy distrust of men. For example, in America we put more trust in our constitution and bill of rights than in our government.

May I suggest that there are at least some things you can and should be assured of for yourself and that is your own salvation.

 

[PRmerger]

I will offer you a real answer from the Bible (not my answer). 2Tm. 3:5 “They will hold to an outward form of godliness but deny its power. Stay away from such people.” (ISV)

Interesting.

So you can’t judge someone by their fruits, eh?

You will not find the power of the HS in a Mormon meeting. No one will be healed or delivered. No one will prophesy. You will not hear a message in tongues with interpretation.

At every single one of your church services someone is healed and delivered and someone prophesies and speaks in tongues?

Really?

That sounds incredulous, even before you answer, but I do await your response.

Secondly, they are basically law-keepers. This is not a demonstration of faith either.

I see a lot of condemnation in this statement.

Even most atheists are good people.

Egg-zactly.

So this contradicts your original point.

You seem to be refuting your own position here.

When Jesus began His ministry, how could people tell if He was from God or not? Some said He was of the devil. What was His proof?

His resurrection of course.

 

[PRmerger]

The real freedom is that which comes to man from God’s eternal word i.e. the Bible.

This sounds a bit like Bibliolatry.

No real freedom comes from a book, no matter how holy.

Freedom comes from the Eternal Word–the Word Incarnate–Jesus Christ.

NOT from a book.

 

[PRmerger]

May I suggest that there are at least some things you can and should be assured of for yourself and that is your own salvation.

No one is assured of his own salvation until he is dead, eazy. Period.

Now, I am not aware of anything on my conscience, but I am not fully acquitted. It is God who judges. Not me.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

This sounds a bit like Bibliolatry.

No real freedom comes from a book, no matter how holy.

Freedom comes from the Eternal Word–the Word Incarnate–Jesus Christ.

NOT from a book.

Not idolatry , he’s referring to the Gospel of Jesus Christ that the scriptures teaches , no freedom comes from just reading a book.

 

[PRmerger]

Not idolatry , he’s referring to the Gospel of Jesus Christ that the scriptures teaches , no freedom comes from just reading a book.

Well, he actually clarified what he meant by “God’s eternal word”–he specifically said it was “the Bible”.

The Bible is a book, a holy book to be sure, and the Word of God.

But what was said about real freedom coming from a book is NOT part of the kerygma.

No book, no matter how holy,

Real freedom comes from the Word of God–Jesus Christ.

And Jesus gave us 2 channels to know Him: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.