What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[benhur]

You do realize you’re equating Protestants with the tares, right? You remember what happens to the tares, don’t you?

Maybe your example proves more than you realize.

Hiizz

No you are equating P’s as tares.

You try to reform tares.

The Lord will do the ultimate equating.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Simply getting them to the front door isn’t enough if you take them to the wrong* building.*

Hi zz,

Wow, there you go again referencing the ultimate emphasis, the right building. I referenced* emphasis* on meeting the living Christ

And preaching for people to come to His Church in no way takes away from preaching Jesus.

Of course they have commonality, just disagree with the CC being emphatical about the former.

There’s one faith. I don’t believe there’s a single doctrine that all P’s can even agree on.

Again, is that the only way to define or judge a church by ? It certainly seems cold and legalistic to describe meeting and knowing the living Christ* only* in doctrinal terms.

Yes P’s go to far in allowing diversity but C’s go to far in defining too much. Both extremes loose universality. But same thing happened in OT. It is ok. It is part of our proper legacy, the* belief in absolute truth* on everything , and every jot and tittle. it takes God’s wisdom to balance it all. I mean shall we quibble on how to genuflect and make the sign of the cross, or to have pictures on the wall, or the Lord on the cross statue, or the date of Easter celebration, or is justification and sanctification the same thing, etc., etc., etc. ?

There is a quite a bit of disagreement among AoG and Lutherans among their various churches. Depending on which particular location you go to or what preacher you listen to, you will hear a different gospel.

Are you sure about that on AoG ? I mean one in California was identical to one in NY in my experience. How many Lutheran branches are their, two three , do not know ?The point is that with in each one they are unified.

That’s the issue. There are no denominations in a Body. A body by definition is a single unit, with a wholeness and lack of separation. Denomination, which means to separate, is contrary to the very idea of a Body.

Agree, that is why I feel it is wrong to put too much weight in judging what is a church of Christ by that standard, for we are all still one Body somehow and it certainly isn’t defined by totally denominations. I guarantee you will see no persons in heaven parading around as P’s, or O’s, or Baptists, or Lutherans but as souls who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb.I will leave that up to you to say whether C’s will be parading around as C’s.

Thank you for the good discussion.

Blessings

 

[rnmvrck]

Nomy friend;

Christ work is not finished NOR s OURS.

From the Cross He proclaimed: “I THIRST”; meaning even in Dying Christ desired to do more
.
This is further verified in the four time the Gospels tell us that we MUST “take up our crosses” in order to follow Christ

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23
And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luke 14:27
And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Salvation dear friend is ALWAYS a process. Indeed it is by God’s Grace that we are Saved; but it is the OBEDIENCE to His Teaching; especially on the Seven Sacraments He, Jesus Instituted to be a SOURCE of Grace towards our meriting our salvation:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

Jesus work was finished on the cross. After His resurrection, it was up to each person eo accept His free gift of salvation.

John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
John 17:4 “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

 

[rnmvrck]

Could you provide a citation of the book, chapter and verse in the Bible where it claims to be the sole rule of faith?

Here is the one I use all the time (and there are others too):
Acts 17:11
Paul states in Acts 17-11 (among others)

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

In other words, receive the word with all readiness of mind, but do not believe what ( … fill in any name / denomination) and search the scriptures daily whether the things you are told are true”. For any religious doctrine or tradition that is taught there must be a biblical basis for that doctrine or belief as the Bible is the inerrant word of God perfect in its original text. God is the highest authority. For those who teach false doctrines, God will hold you in higher accountability than others.

 

[PJM]

=benhur;13214251]Hi PJM

You have articulated your point very well. Then again, that is my point, that Catholics are very good at proclaiming their church and that it is “the” church". We all do that a bit but not to your (C’s) extent. I feel it is at the expense of proclaiming Christ, and having that down as pat. Plus that is more universal to all Christian churches (meeting a saving Jesus). It is tough to preach Christ and “come to my church” at the same time. The more you single out your church as the unique way to go the more the saving gospel is encumbered. I am speaking of presenting the gospel to a lost world. There is a time to quibble after that, but not at the front door.

Thank you for your verses on oneness. Denominations is not the only way to define “church” and ''oneness". For sure it is a fault of P’s (so much division), but disagree then to say they are not “His church”. There are other traits the church is also to have besides “oneness”, and we are all in glass houses, all, C’s, P’s, O’s, etc…

Remember also JW’s also claim "oneness’’ and have same exact liturgy round the world on any given Sunday. Assemblies of God are quite "one’’ all around the world, as are Lutherans, etc, .etc…

Is it not humble for some to admit that they at least belong one of the denominations within the Body ? And the opposite would be to say they are not a denomination at all, as a few do ?

Blessings

My dear friend in Christ,

May I humbly ask: Have you given any prayerful thought as to why the Holy Spirit [GOD]; has led you to CAF? It was and it is to expose you to His TRUTH; which both logically and morally must be singular per defined issue.

Pope Benedict XVI: “There CANNOT be your truth and my truth or their would be no truth” AMEN:thumbsup:

In the netire bible; not a single time does God, ever teach; accept, tollerate, or condone faith beliefs other than His OWN. That same God choose only One Chosen people in the OT and Jesus likewise choose ONLY One Church in the NT. Both are historically and biblically provable.

The Bible is a Catholic Book. And history proves that the Catholic Church dates back directly to the Apostles.

No where my friend does the bible indicate that God ever desired or was tolerate of competing faith beliefs; which all non-Catholic-Christian faiths inexplicably are:shrug:

I point that out in Christian charity as God’s truth; not simply MY personal belief.

God Bless you; please pray about it.

Patrick

 

[KathleenGee]

When I was 21, my dad told me…and I always believed in Christ, and the Eucharist…and I finished high school in 1967…as a shield I say that…He told me I never had faith in the Church and it really ‘burned’ my conscience.

I remember that day very well.

So I prayed and then affirmed the Church as Christ’s Church…and then had peace.

It is an act of faith to die to self and believe in Christ.

And it is another act of faith to overlook the Church and all its doctrines and ‘strictness’…that is how i saw it then…and look beyond the people in it…

One has to make a second act of faith to accept all the people in it…bad popes, crabby lay people…and believe that irregardless the Church is of Christ.

 

[eazyduzit]

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32** Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him **and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

You’re assuming too much. Notice that Paul spoke the word of the Lord to them. He instructed them on the teaching of Jesus, and the requirements of the New Covenant. The phrase “believe on” in Scripture does NOT mean a simple mental assent to something. It means an active faith. It means to acknowledge who He is, AND to obey Him and His teachings. You can’t claim to “believe” in Him and NOT obey His commands.

That is NOT what I’m suggesting. The question is about salvation, not everything after that. What needs to be done to be saved is spelled out for you in Rm.10:10. "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness ; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. "
That is perfectly plain and clear to me .

 

[In_His_Grace]

The Church offers adult classes all the time! I think the question should be, “what am I doing to strengthen my faith with all the tools available?” Don’t blame the Church if someone does not take advantage of the many learning opportunities offered. Most of these classes are free. The blame belongs somewhere else!

Maybe your question should be, " how am I prohibiting my wife from learning her faith?"

Maybe your question should be, " how am I prohibiting my wife from learning her faith?"

That’s an easy question. I teach her what I believe as a Lutheran.

 

[Michael68]

That’s an easy question. I teach her what I believe as a Lutheran.

So you are prohibiting her faith and blaming the Church? I don’t get it

 

[benhur]

When I was 21, my dad told me…and I always believed in Christ, and the Eucharist…and I finished high school in 1967…as a shield I say that…He told me I never had faith in the Church and it really ‘burned’ my conscience.

I remember that day very well.

So I prayed and then affirmed the Church as Christ’s Church…and then had peace.

It is an act of faith to die to self and believe in Christ.

And it is another act of faith to overlook the Church and all its doctrines and ‘strictness’…that is how i saw it then…and look beyond the people in it…

One has to make a second act of faith to accept all the people in it…bad popes, crabby lay people…and believe that irregardless the Church is of Christ.

Hi Kathleen class of 67(now we know),

Thank you for sharing. Sounds like a fatherly chastizement on a teenager of the 60’s and Catholic at that.

What I see is the emphasis on church again. What many of the x catholics in my church seem to say or what brought them "over’ was the emphasis on Jesus. Like the Father told them, they never really knew Jesus. Oh they knew the details, the biography of Jesus, and even prayed and did religious things. So to hear such a thing struck them deeply also. What their final realization was is that they had to really make their* first* act of faith. Indeed it was a dying to self but really coming alive in Christ like never before, with true desire to love and serve Him.

Many of these folks would say they were born again, and had a personal encounter with Christ, both in His personal love and forgiveness, and came away with the gift of faith, in Him and His Church, the Body of Christ. It was no longer about “knowing about Him” , but knowing Him personally. It was no longer about having to be "religious’ but wanting to.

Thanks again for sharing and letting me also.

Blessings

 

[In_His_Grace]

So you are prohibiting her faith and blaming the Church? I don’t get it

I used my wife as an example to point out the truth that there are many poorly catechized Catholics in the Catholic Church. When I asked honest questions in regards to this issue two of the Catholics here affirmed my observation as being true. How do you equate my teaching her my beliefs as a Lutheran as “prohibiting her faith”?

… and blaming the Church?

Not at all, I’m actually grateful as my wife is open to the Gospel as a result.

 

[JMM1957]

Hi Kathleen class of 67(now we know),

Thank you for sharing. Sounds like a fatherly chastizement on a teenager of the 60’s and Catholic at that.

What I see is the emphasis on church again. What many of the x catholics in my church seem to say or what brought them "over’ was the emphasis on Jesus. Like the Father told them, they never really knew Jesus. Oh they knew the details, the biography of Jesus, and even prayed and did religious things. So to hear such a thing struck them deeply also. What their final realization was is that they had to really make their* first* act of faith. Indeed it was a dying to self but really coming alive in Christ like never before, with true desire to love and serve Him.

Many of these folks would say they were born again, and had a personal encounter with Christ, both in His personal love and forgiveness, and came away with the gift of faith, in Him and His Church, the Body of Christ. It was no longer about “knowing about Him” , but knowing Him personally. It was no longer about having to be "religious’ but wanting to.

Thanks again for sharing and letting me also.

Blessings

That’s not surprising, many Protestant’s come over to the Catholic Church for the very same reasons, and more.

 

[KathleenGee]

My archdiocesan instructor told us he sees most believers more as us congregating at a coliseum…where 90% are bystanders looking down below and 10% really living out our faith.

I went to the missions through a very active, outward reaching and personal parish…very upbeat…and my pastor was so wonderful affirming all the good. But it surprised me when he told me there was this woman who wanted someone to care for her house while they went to Europe and I was doing fifth year work then…

What surprised me was when pastor said, ‘She is a REAL Christian woman…’

Most of us in parishes are being nurtured to become more Christian…and usually those that do…by the most part, tend to work in the background and not need so much nurturing except the Mass, sacraments and prayer. This woman was very quiet and did not get involved with church groups.

I know a family with 7 children, did not get involved with alot of church groups, but lived out their Christian life with their kids, going to feed the poor together down town…and the father very much the head of the family…very balanced, reasonable…lovely family…and they are the only ones who had all their kids stay Catholic.

there was so much watering down of faith with my kids…my one son said it was like being Christian was just being nice.

About born again…alot of people, baptized, go to Church as Catholics, don’t have this intense emotional experience, but have realizations happening to them from time to time…think of the Carmelites at present…

I do tend to see born again more as emotional than anything…unless the person was pretty bad and then had this miraculous conversion…they are really wonderful to listen to …

Thanks, Ben Hur…now you can may be understand why I am slowing down,…still working…hurt my back first time all these years…grandson contributed…but still working…know how to get around things.

Those Catholics who left…could have been reacting to the impersonal bureaucratic ways that have been incorporated in Western Catholic churches that we all complain about but nothing happens to correct it.

I think we should start home churches…do our adult ed there within an ongoing fraternity…where people really become closer…satellites of our parish…and then become evangelical…in works of mercy…home churches would make the personal come back.

Pope Benedict was saying that the words we have used before have no meaning now…we have to find a new vocabulary as well…

But yes…to be Catholic…and by pass all its scandal…one needs grace to make a separate act of faith to believe.

 

[IGotQuestions]

Here is the one I use all the time (and there are others too):
Acts 17:11
Paul states in Acts 17-11 (among others)

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

In other words, receive the word with all readiness of mind, but do not believe what ( … fill in any name / denomination) and search the scriptures daily whether the things you are told are true”. For any religious doctrine or tradition that is taught there must be a biblical basis for that doctrine or belief as the Bible is the inerrant word of God perfect in its original text. God is the highest authority. For those who teach false doctrines, God will hold you in higher accountability than others.

Who decides what false Doctrine is? How do we know HE is interpreting the Bible correctly?

 

[IGotQuestions]

catholic’s don’t seem to realize that non catholics are born again and led by the Holy Spirit

Help me understand this. I used to hear this as a fundamental Baptist.
How can you be sure you are led by the Holy Spirit? And what makes you think the Catholics are not led by that self-same Spirit?

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

By eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood, right?

So by taking Communion, one is saved? One doesn’t need to do anything else?

 

[Michael68]

catholic’s don’t seem to realize that non catholics are born again and led by the Holy Spirit

and there are many examples –

Jesse Duplantis’ Testimony

and just quoting scripture done NOT demenstrate you are saved – or born agaoin

signs and wonders fromn the Holy Spirit

is a clue

Philippians - False Teachers (Lesson 5 - Post 1)

Lesson 5 is Philippians 3: 1 - 11.

After reading the passage, go back and focus your attention on verses 1 - 3.

We cannot read these verses without realizing the seriousness of the false teaching about which Paul was so concerned.

The continual problem that faced the New Testament churches was the false teachers who were insisting that the only way to be a Christian was to be a Jew first. One had to be circumcised. Those teachers seemed to have followed Paul. We read much regarding that false teaching in Galatians.

The way Paul describes these pseudo-prophets is harsh and vivid.

Three descriptors …dogs - not the lovable family pets that we think of when we hear the word.

These were the street dogs that often ran in packs causing havoc and trouble. It was the name that Jews called Gentiles - the undesirable ones.

Even as late as the writing of Revelation, in Revelation 22:15 as Jesus describes those who will be outside of the New Jerusalem of God, he said “Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.” Paul called these false teachers “dogs”.
men who do evil - the Jews saw themselves as the ones who worked righteousness. But Paul identifies these teaches as working evil, not righteousness.
the mutilators - rather than the circumcised ones (which was a spiritually significant sign) Paul calls them the mutilators (a practice strictly forbidden for the people of God - Leviticus 21:5). The word had to do with cutting oneself, even castration.
Paul continually preaches and teaches that the only way to righteousness is through faith in Jesus Christ. These false teachers were perverting that truth. Therefore, Paul is tough in his language about them. Remember in chapter 1:18 where Paul took such an “what does it matter” attitude toward those who were teaching Christ with poor motives? He could almost shrug because Christ was being preached. The problem with these teachers in chapter 3 is they were preaching a “Christ is not quite enough” message. And Paul had no patience or tolerance for that distorted teaching.

It matters … who you listen to. Jesus, Himself, warned about false teachers. In Matthew 7:15 he said, “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.”

How do we do that? The warnings are real and incredibly serious. So, how can we know? A few thoughts for your consideration …

Jesus said in Matthew 7 that you can know by the fruit that is formed. Does a teacher produce good fruit - greater faith, more love for God, obedience to the will of God? Or does the teaching produce dissension and quarrelling and self-righteousness?
Does the teacher glorify Christ? Does he/she point to Christ or point more often to him/herself?
Keep yourself immersed in the Word of God so that you know what Jesus said to see if the teaching is true and consistent with the teachings of Jesus.
Pray that the Spirit of God will give you a spirit of discernment and wisdom. James tells us in James 1:5 “If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.”
The only righteousness that can stand before God is Christ-righteousness. And the only way we have access to His righteousness is through faith. Period!

 

[Michael68]

Catholics are born again, have the Holy Spirit and have faith. Period! And yes it matters who you listen to. I see you listen to Jesse Duplantis. Explains a lot to me! You would rather listen to charlatans than Jesus.

 

[JustaServant]

catholic’s don’t seem to realize that non catholics are born again and led by the Holy Spirit

and there are many examples –

Jesse Duplantis’ Testimony

and just quoting scripture done NOT demenstrate you are saved – or born agaoin

signs and wonders fromn the Holy Spirit

is a clue

Philippians - False Teachers (Lesson 5 - Post 1)

Lesson 5 is Philippians 3: 1 - 11.

After reading the passage, go back and focus your attention on verses 1 - 3.

We cannot read these verses without realizing the seriousness of the false teaching about which Paul was so concerned.

The continual problem that faced the New Testament churches was the false teachers who were insisting that the only way to be a Christian was to be a Jew first. One had to be circumcised. Those teachers seemed to have followed Paul. We read much regarding that false teaching in Galatians.

The way Paul describes these pseudo-prophets is harsh and vivid.

Three descriptors …dogs - not the lovable family pets that we think of when we hear the word.

These were the street dogs that often ran in packs causing havoc and trouble. It was the name that Jews called Gentiles - the undesirable ones.

Even as late as the writing of Revelation, in Revelation 22:15 as Jesus describes those who will be outside of the New Jerusalem of God, he said “Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.” Paul called these false teachers “dogs”.
men who do evil - the Jews saw themselves as the ones who worked righteousness. But Paul identifies these teaches as working evil, not righteousness.
the mutilators - rather than the circumcised ones (which was a spiritually significant sign) Paul calls them the mutilators (a practice strictly forbidden for the people of God - Leviticus 21:5). The word had to do with cutting oneself, even castration.
Paul continually preaches and teaches that the only way to righteousness is through faith in Jesus Christ. These false teachers were perverting that truth. Therefore, Paul is tough in his language about them. Remember in chapter 1:18 where Paul took such an “what does it matter” attitude toward those who were teaching Christ with poor motives? He could almost shrug because Christ was being preached. The problem with these teachers in chapter 3 is they were preaching a “Christ is not quite enough” message. And Paul had no patience or tolerance for that distorted teaching.

It matters … who you listen to. Jesus, Himself, warned about false teachers. In Matthew 7:15 he said, “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.”

How do we do that? The warnings are real and incredibly serious. So, how can we know? A few thoughts for your consideration …

Jesus said in Matthew 7 that you can know by the fruit that is formed. Does a teacher produce good fruit - greater faith, more love for God, obedience to the will of God? Or does the teaching produce dissension and quarrelling and self-righteousness?
Does the teacher glorify Christ? Does he/she point to Christ or point more often to him/herself?
Keep yourself immersed in the Word of God so that you know what Jesus said to see if the teaching is true and consistent with the teachings of Jesus.
Pray that the Spirit of God will give you a spirit of discernment and wisdom. James tells us in James 1:5 “If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.”
The only righteousness that can stand before God is Christ-righteousness. And the only way we have access to His righteousness is through faith. Period!

Weeeeeeeeeell I’m convinced. You gotta a way with words there Alvin 'ole buddy.
Tell me little buddy, does the Holy Spirit direct you to lie repeatedly to get on a forum…what is it now? 30 different times? Does the Holy Spirit use deception?
Please come back and tell us, because…well you know us silly Catholics, not having the spirit and all…we need your way with words to enlighten us.

 

[Michael68]

Didn’t realize the poor man is a troll. I suggest we pray for him to see the error of his ways!