What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[benhur]

Okay - this has been on other threads, and is getting off-topic on this thread. It’s hard to tell whether the Orthodox split from the Catholic Church or the Catholic Church split off from the Orthodox. The Orthodox will always say that we split from them and we will always say that they split from us. What happened, really, was more like a very messy divorce in which both sides blamed each other, and both sides were at fault for allowing it to happen. And for centuries afterward, both sides continued to fester, each one demanding that the other side admit that they were wrong. Today, though, the Catholic Church considers the Orthodox to be “sister churches”, whom, though we are not in full communion, share the fullness of the faith passed down through the apostles. And though we still work toward reunification (which, theologically, should be much easier with the Orthodox than the Protestants), we understand that there has been that deep rift and centuries of pain, suffering, and trust that must be healed first. I do believe, however, that full reunification will come before Jesus’ second coming - as I believe that the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation are the Church of the West and the Church of the East.

The Protestant Reformation, though, was more like rebellious children deciding that they would no longer listen to their parents and thus do whatever they wanted to do.

Hi pf’

Thanks for being fair to the O/C split.

Yes, I have read some folk think the two witnesses are as you say, though it is not official teaching.I think Jerome thought them to be Elijah and Enoch, and many think them to be of Jewish extraction.

Found your estimation of P split to be a little harsh /slanted. Fact is most of the original mainline P churches (Anglican, Presbytery, Episcopal, Lutheran) are very still very Catholic, in my estimation, and hence have not done “whatever they wanted to do”.

Blessings

 

[zz912]

Having been through the." James2 debate many times, i know that this is a stcking point that always brings disagreement so i would like to explore this one thing in more detail. I would be interested to learn how you get to the conclusion that in ch. 2 we are dealing with a salvation issue. What i see is that. James is admonishing some who brag of their faith yet act like the world in respect of persons (with money) So he is showing them that their actions don’t justify their faith.

So I would like to hear why this is wrong and James is speaking of basic salvation?

Thanks for your help.

Pretty clearly talking about salvation.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?** Can such faith save them?** 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[zz912]

Removed the Chick tract

Posting Chick tracks is not going to go over well here. They’re ignorant and vile cartoons that maliciously and falsely attack the Christian faith. I’d suggest refraining from doing so.

And posting a cartoon is not a sufficient response to an actual article that lays out the facts of the word priest in the Bible.

 

[Techno2000]

Posting Chick tracks is not going to go over well here. They’re ignorant and vile cartoons that maliciously and falsely attack the Christian faith. I’d suggest refraining from doing so.

And posting a cartoon is not a sufficient response to an actual article that lays out the facts of the word priest in the Bible.

Sorry, I’m just trying to show how Anti-Catholic propaganda is spread around the world.

 

[benhur]

I can’t respond to the ect, ect ,ect. BUT to the points you mentioned; the answer over-all is a RESOUNDING YES!

I just posted a reply to PRmerger on the Papacy that he seems to IN MY OPINION feel is insignificant. Check it out. POST #240

**Acts 20:28-30 **[Douay premodified by Luther]

28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [29] I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

Acts 1: 26 “And they gave them lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.”[the Episcopacy]
The Papacy: See post 240

**Ecuharist **
Acts 2: 42 “And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of thebreaking of bread, and in prayers”

Baptism Mt. 28: 19

The Priesthood
Titus 1: 5 “For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee”
The rest my friend flows from God’s Granted Powers of the Key’s. Mt, 16:19 “And I will give to thee {all of implied} the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

IN that time and place the POWERS to “Bind and or Loose” were understood to be UNLIMITED Powers of Governance; as was common in “walled in cites” like Jerusalem. The King appointed One Man to RULE in his name and make all day to day decisions. If you’d like more in send me a private message.

NOT all of the Seven Sacraments were fully developed at the formation of the Church [singular; Mt. 16: 18}; BUT that is why Christ appointed Peter as the Head; to build and develop the One True Church. Again, if you seek further evidence just send me a private message. Space is limited so I can’t provide more info here.

God Bless you,
Patrick

Hi PJM,

Thanks for response. Of course I have to disagree with your assessments. Did you look at post 240 and we use same writers to show evidence against Papacy. Eucharist also changed from memorial to sacrificial, and then not surprising the term “priest” was derived from original presbyter in English. Thank you for admitting that some sacraments “developed” , though I had wished you would have also said that about the other things mentioned .

Blessings
[/quote]

 

[PRmerger]

EXCUSE ME!

BUT THE PRIMACY OF PETER IS NOT POLITICIS; IT’S DOGMA:blush:

Indeed.

You are very Catholic when you say this.

I should have said what separates the CC from the EO is MAINLY, ESSENTIALLY political.

The difference in the supremacy of the pope vs “first among equals” is indeed doctrinal, but its difference is minutely quantitative vs qualitative.

 

[PJM]

=JMM1957;13243090]Quite possibly Patrick is thinking of Sacred Tradition and how it backs up Sacred Scripture on some of our beliefs. I’m sure Patrick will clarify what he means, but this is just my guess.

THANK YOU

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=Techno2000;13244800]http://media.chick.com/tractimages67491/0071/0071_07.gif

chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

Talk about HATE speaech! WOW! This site you posted is scarry!

I’d like to respond to the comments that "the bible never mentions nun’s monks or Popes"

To put this in its proper perspective; before I respond to this point; allow me to point out that THE BIBLE also does NOT mention “the bible”; Protestants or for that matter; Catholics either; yet all are more recent man made WORDS to describe things otherwise taught in the bible.

Now what this cartoon and its errant, uncharitable teaching .propose as “truth”; actually displays either a disregard or a complete lack of right understanding of The Bible.

The root issue here is the DENIAL that Jesus Christ; true man & True God; freely choose to establish a new church; with NEW Faith believes and NEW Powers and Authority.

In Mt. 10: 1-2
"And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them [SOME OF HIS OWN] power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. And the names of the twelve apostles are these:** The first, Simon who is called Peter**

In John 17:18-19
"As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Jn. 17:18 had God sending His Apostles [and through them today’s Catholic Church] "with [a portion of HIS Own Godly powers; taught again in **Jn 20:21] AND THEN giving HIMSELF as the warranty of their being able to ONLY Teach His Truth on ALL Faith and Moral issues. NO OTHER FAITH OR CHURCH CAN MAKE & SUPPORT THIS CLAIM

**Then in Mt 16: 18-19 **
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, SINGULAR] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."

**What is being missed here in the POWERS to “BiInd and or to Loose” are in that time and place; UNLIMITED AUTHORITY FOR INDEPENDENT GOVERNANCE OF THAT ONE CHURCH , as WAS very common at that time for King-rulers of “walled in cites” such as Jerusalem was. These kings would appoint a “visar” to rule in his name; with his authority; answerable ONLY and directly to the king. ;

AND THIS IS THE MODEL JESUS HAD IN MIND IN USING THOSE PRECISE TERMS. Jesus the King; Peter was His VISAR; who was granted UNLIMITED authority and Powers of Governance. Then NOTE: Christ commits Himself "heaven] to HONOR what ever He did in the name of the LORD!**

That my friend not ONLY permits Rome to Rule; BUT to make Rules and regulations that Bind!

It’s far easier to mock, and be disrespectful; and grossly uncharitable; than it would seem to be to actually uncover and discover the truth.

May our Lord Bless and enlighten you!

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=eazyduzit;13245188]Having been through the." James2 debate many times, i know that this is a stcking point that always brings disagreement so i would like to explore this one thing in more detail. I would be interested to learn how you get to the conclusion that in ch. 2 we are dealing with a salvation issue. What i see is that. James is admonishing some who brag of their faith yet act like the world in respect of persons (with money) So he is showing them that their actions don’t justify their faith.

So I would like to hear why this is wrong and James is speaking of basic salvation?

Thanks for your help.

Great question:thumbsup: Thanks.

I thought I Had addressed that in my prior post? MY fault!

It lies in the fact that salvation requires [as its NORM]; “Faith”; and “Faith” can only be attained through Grace. Then Grace is offered in the HOPE that we will use it wisely and with charity:
**
1 Corinthians 13:13**
And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity[LOVE]

The bible has very many teaching in not only “thee importance”, BUT the irreplaceable significance of charity. Indeed; and this is the point I attempted to make earlier; AND the
very same message James two teaches; is that salvation as a NORM, cannot be separated from charity “Good Works”]. WHY?

Because Good Works are both the manifestation OF and the Good FRUIT [Mt chpt 7] of Charity; by which all humanity will be judged.

Salvation is a PROCESS; that begins with Grace; can become [and ought too] become Faith; whuch in turn is PROVEN by Good Works"

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another

Any passage can, and often does have more than one Teaching.

Does this explain it now? If not let me know and I’ll give it another shot.

God Bless you and KEEP asking these great questions:thumbsup:

Patrick

 

[Techno2000]

Talk about HATE speaech! WOW! This site you posted is scarry!

May our Lord Bless and enlighten you!

Patrick

I hope you didn’t think I believe in Jack Chick’s teachings.

 

[eazyduzit]

Great question:thumbsup: Thanks.

I thought I Had addressed that in my prior post? MY fault!

It lies in the fact that salvation requires [as its NORM]; “Faith”; and “Faith” can only be attained through Grace. Then Grace is offered in the HOPE that we will use it wisely and with charity:
**
1 Corinthians 13:13**
And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity[LOVE]

The bible has very many teaching in not only “thee importance”, BUT the irreplaceable significance of charity. Indeed; and this is the point I attempted to make earlier; AND the
very same message James two teaches; is that salvation as a NORM, cannot be separated from charity “Good Works”]. WHY?

Because Good Works are both the manifestation OF and the Good FRUIT [Mt chpt 7] of Charity; by which all humanity will be judged.

Salvation is a PROCESS; that begins with Grace; can become [and ought too] become Faith; whuch in turn is PROVEN by Good Works"

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another

Any passage can, and often does have more than one Teaching.

Does this explain it now? If not let me know and I’ll give it another shot.

God Bless you and KEEP asking these great questions:thumbsup:

Patrick

Thanks Patrick, I want to make sure I understand the Catholic view correctly.

Of course we’re together on the priority of faith in salvation, but we fall apart on the conditions and even the level of faith required.

This is important for the reason that I need to KNOW if I am truly saved and belong to the family of God. If I don’t know then it will be hard to progress to a mature walk with God.
You cited Jm.2:22…“and by works was faith made complete” (or perfect) .
So are we saying that my faith must be complete before God will save me and count me as righteous? Are we saying that I first must complete a certain amount of good works to my credit to be saved?

I await your answer.

 

[benhur]

It lies in the fact that salvation requires [as its NORM]; “Faith”; and “Faith” can only be attained through Grace. Then Grace is offered in the HOPE that we will use it wisely and with charity:

Hi P,

The sentence looks great above until you say "grace is offered in hope’’. I see a disconnect there. It seems to make grace conditional, which then seems contrary to grace. Grace seems to be given when indeed the conditions are not met, but given graciously, without merit. And grace seems to be that which is given to accomplish that what is hoped for. That is, any gifting we have from the Lord is used wisely and with charity to the extent that we are graced to do so.

More could be said , thanks for letting me interject, gotta go .

Blessings

 

[PRmerger]

This is important for the reason that I need to KNOW if I am truly saved and belong to the family of God.

Not sure if you are conflating “truly saved” with “belong to the family of God”, but they are not the same thing.

You become a member of the family of God when you are baptized.

You become saved when you die and are with Him before the Eternal Throne of heaven.

So, right now, we know that you are a member of the family of God (if you were baptized in water using the Trinitarian formula),

but we don’t know if you are “truly saved” until you die. And even then we wouldn’t know it unless we were already saved as well.

If I don’t know then it will be hard to progress to a mature walk with God.

Catholics have some of the most mature walks with God and yet no Catholic who’s alive, walking on this earth, ought to claim that he is saved.

 

[commenter]

Just a couple of thoughts:

1. No where in the Book of Concord is there a canonical list of the books of the Bible. Technically, we have an open canon, **not that historically rejected books would ever creep in. **
2. The Book of Concord speaks of the DC books in the same way it does other books of scripture.

I am trying to find a smilie for Wishful Thinking.

Using “A New New Testament”, and other sources, extremely liberal Protestants, maybe not including Lutherans, have begun adding “historically rejected books”; not deutero canonicals, but books like the Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Thomas, etc to the Bibles - not in an appendix, not in a “study Bible” but the ones they use for worship and catechesis, inserted alongside Mathew, Mark, etc.

Never say “It can’t happen here”. In the last 50 years, lots of things have crept in, that Christians thought never could.

 

[benhur]

This is important for the reason that I need to KNOW if I am truly saved and belong to the family of God. If I don’t know then it will be hard to progress to a mature walk with God.

Hi edi,

Certainly presupposing acceptance of any behavior is not progress to maturity, just as is presupposing good behavior to be saved. I would find it too apprehensive to doubt that He who began a good work in me, while I was yet an enemy, would fail to keep me while I was family. That is, perseverance is by grace also.

There is a danger of presuming heaven wrongly but so is there in doubting or not resting in His Shepherding. Of course if you are trusting in your flesh to be good or pass the test, then all bets should be off, and your hope is in vain.

Blessings

 

[In_His_Grace]

Just a couple of thoughts:

1. No where in the Book of Concord is there a canonical list of the books of the Bible. Technically, we have an open canon, not that historically rejected books would ever creep in.
2. The Book of Concord speaks of the DC books in the same way it does other books of scripture. As an example: From the Apology:
3. I’m not sure of any other protestant communion that has a study Bible of the Apocrypha, as does the LCMS.

Does any of this mean that Lutherans would accept the DC’s on a par with the balance of scripture? I guess it would depend on how the books were to be used. In the sense that canon means taught from and used in liturgy, we already consider them canon.

Pork’s point is then valid, and I for one would welcome a great use of these wonderful books, and the Prayer of Manasseh, in Lutheran worship and study.

Jon

Hi Jon,

I’ve been researching online about Lutherans, the canon and the DC’s including the introductory sections of the new The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition With Notes. I’ve read the DC’s before and am going to order a copy.

Much appreciated.

 

[Wesrock]

My friend you have greatly missed this biblical principle. Faith is not at all a do nothing theology. Please. Read Jn.6:28,29. The Apostles, just like you, my brother, asked Jesus what work they should do. Jesus answered that the work of God is to believe on Him. This is so simple and straightforward that I’m afraid many miss it. The Bible says that Jesus became poor that we might be rich. Heb.4 explains that there is a REST to the people of God, and we should labor to enter into it, and not miss it as the ancient Hebrews did. So don’t try to use them as your example. Look at the “Hall of Faith” in Heb.11. God is pleased by faith. Faith means we accept Jesus’ work on our behalf.

Yes we are to believe in Jesus. Believing in Jesus isn’t believing he did all the work for us. It’s believing in the things he taught about the Kingdom, law, and judgment, AND (but not only) that he is the Son of God and our savior.

 

[PJM]

=benhur;13246202]Hi PJM,

Thanks for response. Of course I have to disagree with your assessments. Did you look at post 240 and we use same writers to show evidence against Papacy. Eucharist also changed from memorial to sacrificial, and then not surprising the term “priest” was derived from original presbyter in English. Thank you for admitting that some sacraments “developed” , though I had wished you would have also said that about the other things mentioned .

Blessings

THANK YOU

I’m more interested in sharing the TRUTH [singular] than reading 240 post

That said, understanding HAS to be granted by the Holy Spirit through Grace to FAITH [that is HIS Faith]; which is God’s territory; and we Informed Catholics are but conduits for HIM:thumbsup:

There ARE three truths; irrefutable; clear and precise and available to anyone who accepts Christ OFFER [often rejected; thus Protestantism and even some level of unbelieve within the RCC]

1. FIVE separate authors of the NT give testimony to this TRUTH
   Mt 26: 26-28
   Mk 14: 22-24
   Lk 22: 17-19
   ALL of John 6 BUT READ verses 51-52 & 56
   "51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. … [56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed
2. Is the historical & biblical FACT that the Very Early Church accepted the COMMAND to “Do This in commeration of Me” [Lk] VERY soon after the Resurrection of Jesus.

It was at first termed “the Breaking of the Bread”

Acts 2: 42 “And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers”

1. Is Miracles; which by defination means “beyond human comprehension”

Search “The Real Presence. com on Goggle”

CONVERSIONS dear friend are GOD"S DOMAIN; not mine:thumbsup:

PRAY and ask the Holy Spirit for this Gift; do it with a SINCERE heart and He will grant it to you

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=Techno2000;13246823]I hope you didn’t think I believe in Jack Chick’s teachings.

I endeavor NOT to make judgment calls:thumbsup:

God BLESS you,

Patrick

 

[JonNC]

I am trying to find a smilie for Wishful Thinking.

Using “A New New Testament”, and other sources, extremely liberal Protestants, maybe not including Lutherans, have begun adding “historically rejected books”; not deutero canonicals, but books like the Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Thomas, etc to the Bibles - not in an appendix, not in a “study Bible” but the ones they use for worship and catechesis, inserted alongside Mathew, Mark, etc.

Never say “It can’t happen here”. In the last 50 years, lots of things have crept in, that Christians thought never could.

Indeed. Let me rephrase. Orthodox confessional Lutherans would not.

Jon