What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[PJM]

=eazyduzit;13247890]Thanks Patrick, I want to make sure I understand the Catholic view correctly.

Of course we’re together on the priority of faith in salvation, but we fall apart on the conditions and even the level of faith required.

This is important for the reason that I need to KNOW if I am truly saved and belong to the family of God. If I don’t know then it will be hard to progress to a mature walk with God.
You cited Jm.2:22…“and by works was faith made complete” (or perfect) .
So are we saying that my faith must be complete before God will save me and count me as righteous? Are we saying that I first must complete a certain amount of good works to my credit to be saved?

I await your answer.

[QIOTE]Thanks Patrick, I want to make sure I understand the Catholic view correctly.

Of course we’re together on the priority of faith in salvation, but we fall apart on the conditions and even the level of faith required.

This is important for the reason that I need to KNOW if I am truly saved and belong to the family of God. If I don’t know then it will be hard to progress to a mature walk with God.

You cited Jm.2:22…“and by works was faith made complete” (or perfect) .

So are we saying that my faith must be complete before God will save me and count me as righteous? Are we saying that I first must complete a certain amount of good works to my credit to be saved?

I await your answer

GREAT questions my friend,

The answer is a HIGHLY CONDITIONAL “No!” … BUT,

I’m not being evasive in this response. Here’s the condition; IF, as you evidently are; in the active process of uncovering, and discovering God’s Truth; and were to die before you completed your journey of DISCOVERY [BECAUSE GOD CONTROLS ALL LIFE AND DEATH DECISIONS] for what must logically be “God’s single truth” per defined issue; God’s Love and Mercy would then override what he otherwise would NORMALLY accept as satisfactory evidence of your TRUE Love for Him; and credit you with sufficient Grace and perfection.

This hinges on a SINCERE effort on your part.

Now let’s attempt to briefly address the “NORMS”

We Catholics are very uncomfortable with any “assured salvation” as being NORMAL [as in “possible”] as the NORM of Catholic-Christian belief. The theology of an “assured” salvation is one of quite a few man made innovations, stemming from and flowing through the Protestant Revolution; where it was expedient to HAVE ways and means of one attaining their salvation in manners that were & HAD TO BE] easier, quicker and less complex than the Catholicism they were aiming to supplant and overthrow.
Once again I find your questions to both excellent and profound; & worthy of far more of an explanation that I am able to provide in the limited space of the FOTRM.

From the Catholic Prospective the ONLY] “assured”** salvation could come from Blood-Martyrdom; and then it would have be OFFERING willingly one’s Life for Christ; rather than; say, having it taken from you only because you are a “Christian.” Even if “forced” one would have to “will” to offer Christ the Sacrifice of their life freely and willingly.
Other than this scenario; one would at least have to “be IN the State of God’s grace” [be without unforgiven Mortal sins upon ones demise. And this very well COULD require a time in Purgatory, which is a stepping stone to heaven. I said this was profound and complex issue, so every contingency can be fully articulated.

**** [only assured”] … Informed and fully practicing Catholics can have a sense of HOPE and confidence in God’s Love and Divine Mercy that borders on; but fall’s short of actual assurance; that would permit one to be “at Peace” with God’s Judgment.

So long as one is sure that they have NO unconfessed; unforgiven Mortal sins **READ 1 Jn 1: 8-10; 1 Jn 5: 16-17 & John 20:19-23] **when they die; one can be “HOPEFUL” of God’s Mercy and Love and as one walking “with Christ”; have a degree of certainty [but not absolute], that heaven will be in your future.

One having Confessed at least ALL Mortal sins Jn 5: 16-17; and having received absolution for them; and living an active Sacramental & prayerful Life, manifesting God’s commanded and desired Charity; can have a sense of confidence in God’s Love and Mercy.

For non-Catholic-Christians; salvation Hopes can be more complex. Here’s why. God Will; because God MUST make Judgment upon us based upon what HE MAKES POSSIBLE for one to know; NOT what one chooses to accept personally. And this is controlled by OUR freewill; accepting or rejecting God’s Grace; being TRULY open to the Prompting of the Holy Spirit, and in your heart desiring to uncover and discover WITH God’s assistance; His Will for YOU.

This time of discovery requires MUCH humility and much prayer.

God Bless you. Please KEEP asking questions,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=benhur;13247972]Hi P,

The sentence looks great above until you say "grace is offered in hope’’. I see a disconnect there. It seems to make grace conditional, which then seems contrary to grace. Grace seems to be given when indeed the conditions are not met, but given graciously, without merit. And grace seems to be that which is given to accomplish that what is hoped for. That is, any gifting we have from the Lord is used wisely and with charity to the extent that we are graced to do so.

More could be said , thanks for letting me interject, gotta go .

Blessings

THANKS

God; in order to Be God cannot impose forcefully, His Will upon us. That is the precise reason that man ALONE of everything in God’s Creation; is endowed with a mind, intellect, FREEWILL which are all permanently to our SOUL’s.

Isaiah 43: 7 & 21 “And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him. & This people have I formed for myself, [Genesis 1: 26-27] they shall shew forth my praise.”

Teaches us just why we exist at all.

Because God’s Grace is a GIFT freely bestowed [OFFERED]; it IS God’s, and God alone to determine who is OFFERED what and How much and WHEN; thus it is not inappropriate for US to be hopeful of God’s Mercy and His willingness to OFFER us more than just “sufficient Grace.”

The exception to this is Sacramental [Actual Grace] made available to us with clean hearts [in the State of God’s Grace] and active participation to control the amounts of Grace Offered to us through our Sacramental participation; where God permits US; you; me and the Priest by our grateful acceptance; to determine just how much grace will be made available to us.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[In_His_Grace]

I am trying to find a smilie for Wishful Thinking.

Using “A New New Testament”, and other sources, extremely liberal Protestants, maybe not including Lutherans, have begun adding “historically rejected books”; not deutero canonicals, but books like the Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Thomas, etc to the Bibles - not in an appendix, not in a “study Bible” but the ones they use for worship and catechesis, inserted alongside Mathew, Mark, etc.

Never say “It can’t happen here”. In the last 50 years, lots of things have crept in, that Christians thought never could.

… extremely liberal Protestants …

In all fairness it should be noted that the group of scholars and religious leaders, the council behind “A New New Testament” also included “extremely liberal Catholics” as well as “extremely liberal Protestants”. All orthodox Christians will reject such an endeavor out of hand obviously, including the Catholic Church.

 

[eazyduzit]

[QIOTE]Thanks Patrick, I want to make sure I understand the Catholic view correctly.

Of course we’re together on the priority of faith in salvation, but we fall apart on the conditions and even the level of faith required.

This is important for the reason that I need to KNOW if I am truly saved and belong to the family of God. If I don’t know then it will be hard to progress to a mature walk with God.

You cited Jm.2:22…“and by works was faith made complete” (or perfect) .

So are we saying that my faith must be complete before God will save me and count me as righteous? Are we saying that I first must complete a certain amount of good works to my credit to be saved?

I await your answer

GREAT questions my friend,

The answer is a HIGHLY CONDITIONAL “No!” … BUT,

I’m not being evasive in this response. Here’s the condition; IF, as you evidently are; in the active process of uncovering, and discovering God’s Truth; and were to die before you completed your journey of DISCOVERY [BECAUSE GOD CONTROLS ALL LIFE AND DEATH DECISIONS] for what must logically be “God’s single truth” per defined issue; God’s Love and Mercy would then override what he otherwise would NORMALLY accept as satisfactory evidence of your TRUE Love for Him; and credit you with sufficient Grace and perfection.

This hinges on a SINCERE effort on your part.

Now let’s attempt to briefly address the “NORMS”

We Catholics are very uncomfortable with any “assured salvation” as being NORMAL [as in “possible”] as the NORM of Catholic-Christian belief. The theology of an “assured” salvation is one of quite a few man made innovations, stemming from and flowing through the Protestant Revolution; where it was expedient to HAVE ways and means of one attaining their salvation in manners that were & HAD TO BE] easier, quicker and less complex than the Catholicism they were aiming to supplant and overthrow.
Once again I find your questions to both excellent and profound; & worthy of far more of an explanation that I am able to provide in the limited space of the FOTRM.

From the Catholic Prospective the ONLY] “assured”** salvation could come from Blood-Martyrdom; and then it would have be OFFERING willingly one’s Life for Christ; rather than; say, having it taken from you only because you are a “Christian.” Even if “forced” one would have to “will” to offer Christ the Sacrifice of their life freely and willingly.
Other than this scenario; one would at least have to “be IN the State of God’s grace” [be without unforgiven Mortal sins upon ones demise. And this very well COULD require a time in Purgatory, which is a stepping stone to heaven. I said this was profound and complex issue, so every contingency can be fully articulated.

**** [only assured”] … Informed and fully practicing Catholics can have a sense of HOPE and confidence in God’s Love and Divine Mercy that borders on; but fall’s short of actual assurance; that would permit one to be “at Peace” with God’s Judgment.

So long as one is sure that they have NO unconfessed; unforgiven Mortal sins **READ 1 Jn 1: 8-10; 1 Jn 5: 16-17 & John 20:19-23] **when they die; one can be “HOPEFUL” of God’s Mercy and Love and as one walking “with Christ”; have a degree of certainty [but not absolute], that heaven will be in your future.

One having Confessed at least ALL Mortal sins Jn 5: 16-17; and having received absolution for them; and living an active Sacramental & prayerful Life, manifesting God’s commanded and desired Charity; can have a sense of confidence in God’s Love and Mercy.

For non-Catholic-Christians; salvation Hopes can be more complex. Here’s why. God Will; because God MUST make Judgment upon us based upon what HE MAKES POSSIBLE for one to know; NOT what one chooses to accept personally. And this is controlled by OUR freewill; accepting or rejecting God’s Grace; being TRULY open to the Prompting of the Holy Spirit, and in your heart desiring to uncover and discover WITH God’s assistance; His Will for YOU.

This time of discovery requires MUCH humility and much prayer.

God Bless you. Please KEEP asking questions,

Patrick

 

[eazyduzit]

GREAT questions my friend,

The answer is a HIGHLY CONDITIONAL “No!” … BUT,

I’m not being evasive in this response. Here’s the condition; IF, as you evidently are; in the active process of uncovering, and discovering God’s Truth; and were to die before you completed your journey of DISCOVERY [BECAUSE GOD CONTROLS ALL LIFE AND DEATH DECISIONS] for what must logically be “God’s single truth” per defined issue; God’s Love and Mercy would then override what he otherwise would NORMALLY accept as satisfactory evidence of your TRUE Love for Him; and credit you with sufficient Grace and perfection.

This hinges on a SINCERE effort on your part.

Now let’s attempt to briefly address the “NORMS”

We Catholics are very uncomfortable with any “assured salvation” as being NORMAL [as in “possible”] as the NORM of Catholic-Christian belief. The theology of an “assured” salvation is one of quite a few man made innovations, stemming from and flowing through the Protestant Revolution; where it was expedient to HAVE ways and means of one attaining their salvation in manners that were & HAD TO BE] easier, quicker and less complex than the Catholicism they were aiming to supplant and overthrow.
Once again I find your questions to both excellent and profound; & worthy of far more of an explanation that I am able to provide in the limited space of the FOTRM.

From the Catholic Prospective the ONLY] “assured”** salvation could come from Blood-Martyrdom; and then it would have be OFFERING willingly one’s Life for Christ; rather than; say, having it taken from you only because you are a “Christian.” Even if “forced” one would have to “will” to offer Christ the Sacrifice of their life freely and willingly.
Other than this scenario; one would at least have to “be IN the State of God’s grace” [be without unforgiven Mortal sins upon ones demise. And this very well COULD require a time in Purgatory, which is a stepping stone to heaven. I said this was profound and complex issue, so every contingency can be fully articulated.

**** [only assured”] … Informed and fully practicing Catholics can have a sense of HOPE and confidence in God’s Love and Divine Mercy that borders on; but fall’s short of actual assurance; that would permit one to be “at Peace” with God’s Judgment.

So long as one is sure that they have NO unconfessed; unforgiven Mortal sins **READ 1 Jn 1: 8-10; 1 Jn 5: 16-17 & John 20:19-23] **when they die; one can be “HOPEFUL” of God’s Mercy and Love and as one walking “with Christ”; have a degree of certainty [but not absolute], that heaven will be in your future.

One having Confessed at least ALL Mortal sins Jn 5: 16-17; and having received absolution for them; and living an active Sacramental & prayerful Life, manifesting God’s commanded and desired Charity; can have a sense of confidence in God’s Love and Mercy.

For non-Catholic-Christians; salvation Hopes can be more complex. Here’s why. God Will; because God MUST make Judgment upon us based upon what HE MAKES POSSIBLE for one to know; NOT what one chooses to accept personally. And this is controlled by OUR freewill; accepting or rejecting God’s Grace; being TRULY open to the Prompting of the Holy Spirit, and in your heart desiring to uncover and discover WITH God’s assistance; His Will for YOU.

This time of discovery requires MUCH humility and much prayer.

God Bless you. Please KEEP asking questions,

Patrick

Thanks a million Patrick
Whew, that was more than I bargained for.

Now if I’m getting it right, the first thing to do is make a sincere effort to learn everything the is revealed by Rome,and then make every effort to receive the sacraments of Rome.
And then try to make sure you confess every mortal sin to a validly ordained priest and this is the best one can hope for short of martyrdom.
This then is the “Good News”, Catholic version, if I got it right?

Now for the Evangelical version.

As I see it, the best expression of the Gospel is Mt5:17. Jesus said He has come to fulfill the law. He does it for me, because I couldn’t! He fulfills the moral demands with His life and the sacrificial law by His death on my behalf.
This has been called the “Great Exchange” . I give Jesus my sin and He gives me His righteousness. According to Rm.5 it is a FREE gift.
Everything we receive from God must be according to His promises. Acts 2:21 says “And it shall come to pass, that whosoeve shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved”. God made promises to Israel, but they didn’t always believe. Heb.4:1-2 says “Let us ttherefore fear lest a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the Gospel preached as well as unt o them, not being mixed with faith. …” 2Pt1:4says." Whereby are given unto us exeeding great and precious promises, that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature…" And the greatest promise is from Jesus in Jn.5:24, “Verily, verily, l say unto you, He that hears My word and believes on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and is not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life”.
I have no authority to change what Jesus has said . This says that a believer ALREADY has the life. It past tense, not future. I must believe and not doubt, for God is not pleased by doubt. 1Jn.5:13 further varifies this “These things have I WRITTEN unto you that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life” .

I hope this will help to clarify some differences for the OP

Shalom

 

[eazyduzit]

GREAT questions my friend,

The answer is a HIGHLY CONDITIONAL “No!” … BUT,

I’m not being evasive in this response. Here’s the condition; IF, as you evidently are; in the active process of uncovering, and discovering God’s Truth; and were to die before you completed your journey of DISCOVERY [BECAUSE GOD CONTROLS ALL LIFE AND DEATH DECISIONS] for what must logically be “God’s single truth” per defined issue; God’s Love and Mercy would then override what he otherwise would NORMALLY accept as satisfactory evidence of your TRUE Love for Him; and credit you with sufficient Grace and perfection.

This hinges on a SINCERE effort on your part.

Now let’s attempt to briefly address the “NORMS”

We Catholics are very uncomfortable with any “assured salvation” as being NORMAL [as in “possible”] as the NORM of Catholic-Christian belief. The theology of an “assured” salvation is one of quite a few man made innovations, stemming from and flowing through the Protestant Revolution; where it was expedient to HAVE ways and means of one attaining their salvation in manners that were & HAD TO BE] easier, quicker and less complex than the Catholicism they were aiming to supplant and overthrow.
Once again I find your questions to both excellent and profound; & worthy of far more of an explanation that I am able to provide in the limited space of the FOTRM.

From the Catholic Prospective the ONLY] “assured”** salvation could come from Blood-Martyrdom; and then it would have be OFFERING willingly one’s Life for Christ; rather than; say, having it taken from you only because you are a “Christian.” Even if “forced” one would have to “will” to offer Christ the Sacrifice of their life freely and willingly.
Other than this scenario; one would at least have to “be IN the State of God’s grace” [be without unforgiven Mortal sins upon ones demise. And this very well COULD require a time in Purgatory, which is a stepping stone to heaven. I said this was profound and complex issue, so every contingency can be fully articulated.

**** [only assured”] … Informed and fully practicing Catholics can have a sense of HOPE and confidence in God’s Love and Divine Mercy that borders on; but fall’s short of actual assurance; that would permit one to be “at Peace” with God’s Judgment.

So long as one is sure that they have NO unconfessed; unforgiven Mortal sins **READ 1 Jn 1: 8-10; 1 Jn 5: 16-17 & John 20:19-23] **when they die; one can be “HOPEFUL” of God’s Mercy and Love and as one walking “with Christ”; have a degree of certainty [but not absolute], that heaven will be in your future.

One having Confessed at least ALL Mortal sins Jn 5: 16-17; and having received absolution for them; and living an active Sacramental & prayerful Life, manifesting God’s commanded and desired Charity; can have a sense of confidence in God’s Love and Mercy.

For non-Catholic-Christians; salvation Hopes can be more complex. Here’s why. God Will; because God MUST make Judgment upon us based upon what HE MAKES POSSIBLE for one to know; NOT what one chooses to accept personally. And this is controlled by OUR freewill; accepting or rejecting God’s Grace; being TRULY open to the Prompting of the Holy Spirit, and in your heart desiring to uncover and discover WITH God’s assistance; His Will for YOU.

This time of discovery requires MUCH humility and much prayer.

God Bless you. Please KEEP asking questions,

Patrick

Thanks a million Patrick
Whew, that was more than I bargained for.

Now if I’m getting it right, the first thing to do is make a sincere effort to learn everything the is revealed by Rome,and then make every effort to receive the sacraments of Rome.
And then try to make sure you confess every mortal sin to a validly ordained priest and this is the best one can hope for short of martyrdom.
This then is the “Good News”, Catholic version, if I got it right?

Now for the Evangelical version.

As I see it, the best expression of the Gospel is Mt5:17. Jesus said He has come to fulfill the law. He does it for me, because I couldn’t! He fulfills the moral demands with His life and the sacrificial law by His death on my behalf.
This has been called the “Great Exchange” . I give Jesus my sin and He gives me His righteousness. According to Rm.5 it is a FREE gift.
Everything we receive from God must be according to His promises. Acts 2:21 says “And it shall come to pass, that whosoeve shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved”. God made promises to Israel, but they didn’t always believe. Heb.4:1-2 says “Let us ttherefore fear lest a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the Gospel preached as well as unt o them, not being mixed with faith. …” 2Pt1:4says." Whereby are given unto us exeeding great and precious promises, that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature…" And the greatest promise is from Jesus in Jn.5:24, “Verily, verily, l say unto you, He that hears My word and believes on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and is not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life”.
I have no authority to change what Jesus has said . This says that a believer ALREADY has the life. It past tense, not future. I must believe and not doubt, for God is not pleased by doubt. 1Jn.5:13 further varifies this “These things have I WRITTEN unto you that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life” .

I hope this will help to clarify some differences for the OP

Shalom

 

[eazyduzit]

Yes we are to believe in Jesus. Believing in Jesus isn’t believing he did all the work for us. It’s believing in the things he taught about the Kingdom, law, and judgment, AND (but not only) that he is the Son of God and our savior.

Head knowledge does not save. Even thd demons believe. If one does not TRUST in his heart that JJesus has already paid for and forgiven all his sins, then he cannot be saved.

Shalom

 

[PRmerger]

Head knowledge does not save. Even thd demons believe. If one does not TRUST in his heart that JJesus has already paid for -]and forgiven/-] all his sins, then he cannot be saved.

Shalom

Very Catholic, this!

 

[PJM]

=benhur;13247972]Hi P,

The sentence looks great above until you say "grace is offered in hope’’. I see a disconnect there. It seems to make grace conditional, which then seems contrary to grace. Grace seems to be given when indeed the conditions are not met, but given graciously, without merit. And grace seems to be that which is given to accomplish that what is hoped for. That is, any gifting we have from the Lord is used wisely and with charity to the extent that we are graced to do so.

More could be said , thanks for letting me interject, gotta go .

Blessings

Ben, here is why I say its Conditional:

From Father Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary

GRACE. In biblical language the condescension or benevolence (Greek charis) shown by God toward the human race; it is also the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition. Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim. Where on occasion the Scriptures speak of grace as pleasing charm or thanks for favors received, this is a derived and not primary use of the term.

As the Church has come to explain the meaning of grace, it refers to something more than the gifts of nature, such as creation or the blessings of bodily health. Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation. The gifts of grace are essentially supernatural. They surpass the being, powers, and claims of created nature, namely sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace. They are the indispensable means necessary to reach the beatific vision. In a secondary sense, grace also includes such blessings as the miraculous gifts of prophecy or healing, or the preternatural gifts of freedom from concupiscence.

The essence of grace, properly so called, is its gratuity, since no creature has a right to the beatific vision, and its finality or purpose is to lead one to eternal life. (Etym. Latin gratia, favor; a gift freely given.) See also ACTUAL GRACE, EFFICACIOUS GRACE, HABITUAL GRACE, JUSTIFYING GRACE, SACRAMENTAL GRACE, SANCTIFYING GRACE, SUFFICIENT GRACE.

 

[PJM]

=eazyduzit

Thanks a million Patrick
Whew, that was more than I bargained for "

THIS IS PAT’S REPLY TO POST 283 THAT HAD TO BE EDITED FOR SPACE.

Thanks and SHALOM indeed!

Some critically BUT very necessary points of correction:

1.One must be careful NOT disassociate your “Rome” from Jesus Christ Himself, when speaking of what the Catholic Church Teaches. They are as they MUST be, the very One and the Same. The Catholic Church on ALL matters of Faith beliefs and Morality; cannot, which is to say it is impossible for Her [Mother Church] to teach these things in error.

We must understand that Peter did not seek the position; Christ choose Him. Nor did Peter “Founder” the “Catholic Church”; Christ did; Peter like each of us was doing only what Christ commanded and expected of Him.

**Mt. 16:18-19 **“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

Mt. 28:19-20 “ Go therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOUI all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

There is no option given or provided to add in later Christian Faiths & Churches in these particular teachings

John 17: 18-19 “As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And FOR THEM do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
JOHN 15:16

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.”

Eph .2:20 “Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone”

2.Again the Sacraments are NOT Rome’s; they are ALL Instituted BY Christ to aid man in his search and effect of salvation. The Church offers them In the Name and Authority of Jesus Christ. It is however; ONLY those who have DIRECT Apostolic succession [Rome and the Eastern Orthodox] who have all Seven of the Sacraments validly. AND it is ROME alone who can and does have the authority and guided powers to teach the Fullness of God’s Truth; which can be either accepted or rejected.

3.I’m VERY uncomfortable with your expression cf. “that this then is the best one can hope for.”

Not only is this Sufficient; but even more significantly it is GOD”S WAY! It seems to ME, that you’re missing the Power and exclusivity of the Power of the Keys; and the selection of the Apostles and their heirs being exclusively GUIDED AND ASSURED of unfailing truthful teachings on all Faith and Moral matters. Where in the bible, did God, even one time tolerate, accept, or permit competing faith beliefs?

4.Thank you for sharing the Evangelical teachings. I was aware of them; and it was very kind of you to post them for the benefit of the OP:

That said; one must look at my point #3 and answer for themselves those questions correctly.

The error flows from mortal men trying to, unguided by the Holy Spirit, to interpret what ONLY the CC is guided and fully protected to do [points 1,2, &3]; and either not knowing, or ignoring this biblical truth:

2nd. Timothy 3:16-17 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2nd. Peter 1: 20-21 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

THEE Infallible Rule for RIGHT Understanding of the Bible [which is a Catholic Book]
Never ever can, may, or DOES
One passage, teaching or verse
Have the Power or authority to
Invalidate, override or make void another
Passage, teaching or verse; were this even the slightest bit possible [ITS NOT], it would render the bible as worthless to teach or learn ones Faith.

5 The Protestant Revolution, guided by Martin Luther faced an implausible and formidable task; namely to 1. Unseat; 2. Discredit; 3. Override, and 4. Diminish the then 1,600 year old Roman Catholic Church. Historically they managed to do numbers 2 & 4; number 4 only for a time. The Roman Catholic Church; guided by the Holy Spirit has grown to over ONE BILLION Catholics worldwide. They HAD TOO make their religion both simpler, less complex, and it a term; EASIER, which as you expressed they HAVE done. The question it seems to me is it actually what Christ Himself Founded, desired, and protects; that answer my friends is NO! It clearly is not.

Were your understanding the TRUTH why then did God choose only the RCC; Why then did God entrust ALL of the Key’s to heaven to Her [Mother Church?]; Why then did Christ in** John 17:18-19 ; give Him VERY SELF to warrant the teachings of the RCC? Why Did Christ Himself Institute the Seven Sacraments; notably: Christian Baptism; Known Forgiveness of Sin [GODS WAY… 1 John 1:8-10; 1 John 5: 16-17 7 JOHN 20:21-23

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

If YOU forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if YOU retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Is this a mis-print, or was Jesus just kidding?
God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

=eazyduzit;13251106]Head knowledge does not save. Even thd demons believe. If one does not TRUST in his heart that Jesus has already paid for and forgiven all his sins, then he cannot be saved.

Shalom

Sorry to be the bearer of sad news my friend. I know that is what you have been taught and really want to belief; BUT it’s not GOD"S WAY.

There os but One True God

Who always and with complete consistency insisted on just one set of Faith beliefs; and just as Yahweh had only One Chosen people ]Exodus 6:7]; so too Christ desired exactly what He wanted to accomplish; and founded, guides and guards JUST that one Church; which is today’s Catholic Church’

It is inconceivable that Jesus; PERFECT GOD that He is would have established His Catholic Church and then waited some 1,600 years for the Protestant Revolution to reveal His what must be SINGULAR TRUTHS PER DEFINED ISSUE.

:shrug:Could Jesus Christ actually HAVE waited for Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin or Smith?
IMPOSSIBLE, my friend.

Where in the bible, even ONE single time did GOD ever accept, tolerate, permit or even encourage competing faiths?

Eph. 4: 1-7

“[1] I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, [2] With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. [3] Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4]** One bod =One Church**y and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. [5] One Lord, one faith,-= just One set of faith=beliefs/SIZE] one baptism.[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. [7] But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ”

My friend if you choose to accept the Bible; then do as God would want you too; ACCEPT ALL of it.

Matthew 4:4
Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.

2nd Timothy 3: 16-17
[16] All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, [17] That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

DOUAY BIBLE Explanation [16] All scripture,: Every part of divine scripture is certainly profitable for all these ends. But, if we would have the whole rule of Christian faith and practice, we must not be content with those Scriptures, which Timothy knew from his infancy, that is, with the Old Testament alone: nor yet with the New Testament, without taking along with it the traditions of the apostles, and the interpretation of the church, to which the apostles delivered both the book, and the true meaning of it."

Certainly we are to have Faith through God’s Grace. But we are also to OBEY

Acts 27-30
[27] For I have not spared to declare unto you all the counsel of God. [28] Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [29] I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. [30] And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."

And Yes; Martin Luther and his co-hearts changed the text in the King James; BUT this shared version is alos in the Latin Vulgate.

Pray much,

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[eazyduzit]

3.I’m VERY uncomfortable with your expression cf. “that this then is the best one can hope for.”

Not only is this Sufficient; but even more significantly it is GOD”S WAY! It seems to ME, that you’re missing the Power and exclusivity of the Power of the Keys; and the selection of the Apostles and their heirs being exclusively GUIDED AND ASSURED of unfailing truthful teachings on all Faith and Moral matters. Where in the bible, did God, even one time tolerate, accept, or permit competing faith beliefs?

4.Thank you for sharing the Evangelical teachings. I was aware of them; and it was very kind of you to post them for the benefit of the OP:

That said; one must look at my point #3 and answer for themselves those questions correctly.

The error flows from mortal men trying to, unguided by the Holy Spirit, to interpret what ONLY the CC is guided and fully protected to do [points 1,2, &3]; and either not knowing, or ignoring this biblical truth:

2nd. Timothy 3:16-17 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2nd. Peter 1: 20-21 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

THEE Infallible Rule for RIGHT Understanding of the Bible [which is a Catholic Book]
Never ever can, may, or DOES
One passage, teaching or verse
Have the Power or authority to
Invalidate, override or make void another
Passage, teaching or verse; were this even the slightest bit possible [ITS NOT], it would render the bible as worthless to teach or learn ones Faith.

5 The Protestant Revolution, guided by Martin Luther faced an implausible and formidable task; namely to 1. Unseat; 2. Discredit; 3. Override, and 4. Diminish the then 1,600 year old Roman Catholic Church. Historically they managed to do numbers 2 & 4; number 4 only for a time. The Roman Catholic Church; guided by the Holy Spirit has grown to over ONE BILLION Catholics worldwide. They HAD TOO make their religion both simpler, less complex, and it a term; EASIER, which as you expressed they HAVE done. The question it seems to me is it actually what Christ Himself Founded, desired, and protects; that answer my friends is NO! It clearly is not.

Were your understanding the TRUTH why then did God choose only the RCC; Why then did God entrust ALL of the Key’s to heaven to Her [Mother Church?]; Why then did Christ in** John 17:18-19 ; give Him VERY SELF to warrant the teachings of the RCC? Why Did Christ Himself Institute the Seven Sacraments; notably: Christian Baptism; Known Forgiveness of Sin [GODS WAY… 1 John 1:8-10; 1 John 5: 16-17 7 JOHN 20:21-23 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

If YOU forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if YOU retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Is this a mis-print, or was Jesus just kidding?
God Bless you,
Patrick

Nice try Patrick ,but this evangelical remains even more unconvinced by your claims. You cannot make void any scriptures with your traditions. When Jesus says “Trluly, truly”, this signals something very significant. Every other interpretation flows from that. Jesus never said" Peter,you are the substitute head of my church". As you cited from Eph.2 ,it is the apostles together that are the foundation of the church. Peter is given the keys of the kingdom. The “kingdom” is not the same as the" church" . Jesus said he came to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, not the Gospel of the Church. You keep citing the age of your traditions, but age does not make something more true. Truth is based on the harmony of all scripture, even if most men don’t agree. Size. doesn’t make a claim more sure either. When Mark and Luke take up the "Who do you say that I am " text, the “keys” or the rock are not mentioned yet you want to makeit the foundation of everything,and thereby give approval to any tradition that men would add. Everything hinges on certain certain superior men who alone can hear from God on certain important issues and nobody else can. An effective way to rule,but I can’t think of anything more dangerous. This is why Jesus told the apostles in ch.25 of Mt. That no one is to be called “master” and no one is to be singled out as the one “father”, for one is your father in heaven.

But I. want to return to the promises of God. John 5:24 clearly promises eternal life now. I need new life NOW. I need the indwellind Spirit NOW. I need the anointing NOW. I need to overcome NOW, not in the next life. Unless i have the life of God in me now, i won’t have authority, even over the smallest demon or sickness or situation. All the promises of God are for me. I will not be influenced by the authority claims of any church. Like Luther, i need to be convicted by the weight of scripture. The Bible teaches the fullness of God’s truth. It is to be accepted or rejectd as a whole.

But thanks Patrick for your honest answers.

 

[PRmerger]

But I. want to return to the promises of God. John 5:24 clearly promises eternal life now. I need new life NOW. I need the indwellind Spirit NOW. I need the anointing NOW. I need to overcome NOW, not in the next life. Unless i have the life of God in me now, i won’t have authority, even over the smallest demon or sickness or situation. All the promises of God are for me.

This is very Catholic!

And this is why we have the Sacraments.

I will not be influenced by the authority claims of any church.

And yet you submit to the authority claims of my Church, the Catholic Church, each and every time you quote from the NT.

For it is through her authority that you know that Hebrews is inspired but the Shepherd of Hermas is not.

Like Luther, i need to be convicted by the weight of scripture.

Very Catholic.

The Bible teaches the fullness of God’s truth.

This is a man-made tradition, eazy. The Bible doesn’t state it teaches the fullness of it. Only that it is the inspired Word of God. Totally different.

It is to be accepted or rejectd as a whole.

Very Catholic.

 

[JMM1957]

easy, please tell us how you understand this:

If YOU forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if YOU retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Can you personally forgive sins or retain them? How do you think the Apostles understood this statement from Jesus?

 

[PJM]

=eazyduzit;13251106]Head knowledge does not save. Even thd demons believe. If one does not TRUST in his heart that JJesus has already paid for and forgiven all his sins, then he cannot be saved.

Shalom

My friend, if you RALLY desire to be saved consider reading

Mt. 10"1-8
Mt 16:15-19
John 17:11-23
Mt 28:16-20

1John 1: 8-10
1 John 5: 16-17
John 20:19-23

They all lead to GOD"S WAY:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=eazyduzit;13254266]3.I’m VERY uncomfortable with your expression cf. “that this then is the best one can hope for.”

Not only is this Sufficient; but even more significantly it is GOD”S WAY! It seems to ME, that you’re missing the Power and exclusivity of the Power of the Keys; and the selection of the Apostles and their heirs being exclusively GUIDED AND ASSURED of unfailing truthful teachings on all Faith and Moral matters. Where in the bible, did God, even one time tolerate, accept, or permit competing faith beliefs?

4.Thank you for sharing the Evangelical teachings. I was aware of them; and it was very kind of you to post them for the benefit of the OP:

That said; one must look at my point #3 and answer for themselves those questions correctly.

The error flows from mortal men trying to, unguided by the Holy Spirit, to interpret what ONLY the CC is guided and fully protected to do [points 1,2, &3]; and either not knowing, or ignoring this biblical truth:

2nd. Timothy 3:16-17 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2nd. Peter 1: 20-21 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

THEE Infallible Rule for RIGHT Understanding of the Bible [which is a Catholic Book]
Never ever can, may, or DOES
One passage, teaching or verse
Have the Power or authority to
Invalidate, override or make void another
Passage, teaching or verse; were this even the slightest bit possible [ITS NOT], it would render the bible as worthless to teach or learn ones Faith.

5 The Protestant Revolution, guided by Martin Luther faced an implausible and formidable task; namely to 1. Unseat; 2. Discredit; 3. Override, and 4. Diminish the then 1,600 year old Roman Catholic Church. Historically they managed to do numbers 2 & 4; number 4 only for a time. The Roman Catholic Church; guided by the Holy Spirit has grown to over ONE BILLION Catholics worldwide. They HAD TOO make their religion both simpler, less complex, and it a term; EASIER, which as you expressed they HAVE done. The question it seems to me is it actually what Christ Himself Founded, desired, and protects; that answer my friends is NO! It clearly is not.

Were your understanding the TRUTH why then did God choose only the RCC; Why then did God entrust ALL of the Key’s to heaven to Her [Mother Church?]; Why then did Christ in** John 17:18-19 ; give Him VERY SELF to warrant the teachings of the RCC? Why Did Christ Himself Institute the Seven Sacraments; notably: Christian Baptism; Known Forgiveness of Sin [GODS WAY… 1 John 1:8-10; 1 John 5: 16-17 7 JOHN 20:21-23

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

If YOU forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if YOU retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Is this a mis-print, or was Jesus just kidding?
God Bless you,
Patrick

Nice try Patrick ,but this evangelical remains even more unconvinced by your claims. You cannot make void any scriptures with your traditions. When Jesus says “Trluly, truly”, this signals something very significant. Every other interpretation flows from that. Jesus never said" Peter,you are the substitute head of my church". As you cited from Eph.2 ,it is the apostles together that are the foundation of the church. Peter is given the keys of the kingdom. The “kingdom” is not the same as the" church" . Jesus said he came to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, not the Gospel of the Church. You keep citing the age of your traditions, but age does not make something more true. Truth is based on the harmony of all scripture, even if most men don’t agree. Size. doesn’t make a claim more sure either. When Mark and Luke take up the "Who do you say that I am " text, the “keys” or the rock are not mentioned yet you want to makeit the foundation of everything,and thereby give approval to any tradition that men would add. Everything hinges on certain certain superior men who alone can hear from God on certain important issues and nobody else can. An effective way to rule,but I can’t think of anything more dangerous. This is why Jesus told the apostles in ch.25 of Mt. That no one is to be called “master” and no one is to be singled out as the one “father”, for one is your father in heaven.

But I. want to return to the promises of God. John 5:24 clearly promises eternal life now. I need new life NOW. I need the indwellind Spirit NOW. I need the anointing NOW. I need to overcome NOW, not in the next life. Unless i have the life of God in me now, i won’t have authority, even over the smallest demon or sickness or situation. All the promises of God are for me. I will not be influenced by the authority claims of any church. Like Luther, i need to be convicted by the weight of scripture. The Bible teaches the fullness of God’s truth. It is to be accepted or rejectd as a whole.

But thanks Patrick for your honest answers.

Conversions My friend, have never been part of my God-given Job Description; that is His Job; and His Alone.

I’ll keep you in my prayers.

My Jod is to know, Live, anmd share GOD"S TRUTH; His job [with your humility] is to get you accept it

Partick

 

[eazyduzit]

easy, please tell us how you understand this:

If YOU forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if YOU retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Can you personally forgive sins or retain them? How do you think the Apostles understood this statement from Jesus?

Remember that the apostles were Hebrews so you could only expect them to understand from a Jewish perspective. Without doubt they knew that only God can forgive sins. So they would have taken this to mean that their pastoral duty would be to judge the sincerity of those who claim to have been saved . That is, to exercise church discipline. For example, if a believer goes on sinning like a heathen, we might exercise the authority to judge that such a one has not been saved or forgiven. How else would one know that sins are not fogiven, but by the fruit of ones life. For instance if someone persists in speaking heresy, it would be the church leaders role to pronounce him to be unforgiven and without life. But if he repents with sincerity, he could be judged to be forgiven. Of course, in any church there are a certain percentage who are unsaved because they may not yet have understood the gospel, but we are not to knowingly allow membership to those we can see are not behaving or believing according to the gospel for the church of God is only for the saved.

Thanks for the question!

 

[benhur]

THANKS

God; in order to Be God cannot impose forcefully, His Will upon us. That is the precise reason that man ALONE of everything in God’s Creation; is endowed with a mind, intellect, FREEWILL which are all permanently to our SOUL’s.

Isaiah 43: 7 & 21 “And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him. & This people have I formed for myself, [Genesis 1: 26-27] they shall shew forth my praise.”

Teaches us just why we exist at all.

Because God’s Grace is a GIFT freely bestowed [OFFERED]; it IS God’s, and God alone to determine who is OFFERED what and How much and WHEN; thus it is** not inappropriate for US to be hopeful of God’s Mercy** and His willingness to OFFER us more than just “sufficient Grace.”

The exception to this is Sacramental [Actual Grace] made available to us with clean hearts [in the State of God’s Grace] and active participation to control the amounts of Grace Offered to us through our Sacramental participation; where God permits US; you; me and the Priest by our grateful acceptance; to determine just how much grace will be made available to us.

God Bless you,

Patrick

Hi Patrick,

Thank you .But we know what He does want to bestow eternal life and life abundantly. He wants to initiate life, and shepherd that life to it’s final destiny, in and with Him. We know this, and would not call it "just " sufficient grace, as if there is something more, even to hope for. Yes, we hope for mercy but attain, are given, His grace and that abundantly. Grace is above mercy . Grace goes beyond mercy.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Ben, here is why I say its Conditional:

From Father Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary

GRACE. In biblical language the condescension or benevolence (Greek charis) shown by God toward the human race; it is also the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition. Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim. Where on occasion the Scriptures speak of grace as pleasing charm or thanks for favors received, this is a derived and not primary use of the term.

As the Church has come to explain the meaning of grace, it refers to something more than the gifts of nature, such as creation or the blessings of bodily health. Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation. The gifts of grace are essentially supernatural. They surpass the being, powers, and claims of created nature, namely sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace. They are the indispensable means necessary to reach the beatific vision. In a secondary sense, grace also includes such blessings as the miraculous gifts of prophecy or healing, or the preternatural gifts of freedom from concupiscence.

The essence of grace, properly so called, is its gratuity, since no creature has a right to the beatific vision, and its finality or purpose is to lead one to eternal life. (Etym. Latin gratia, favor; a gift freely given.) See also ACTUAL GRACE, EFFICACIOUS GRACE, HABITUAL GRACE, JUSTIFYING GRACE, SACRAMENTAL GRACE, SANCTIFYING GRACE, SUFFICIENT GRACE.

OK.Thanks. Still do not see the “condition”, for it is "gratuitous , and “man makes absolutely no claim”.

 

[benhur]

easy, please tell us how you understand this:

If YOU forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if YOU retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Can you personally forgive sins or retain them? How do you think the Apostles understood this statement from Jesus?

Hi '57,

If I may cut in, I know the apostles baptized, made disciples, but not sure they ever held “confessional” time as done today. I would think forgiving and retaining must be something else.

Blessings