What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[JMM1957]

The obedience to God is faith . So many times in the Gospels Jesus says" Be it done unto you according to your faith. Faith is what gets things done in the kingdom. The “work” of God is to believe Jn6:29.
I don’t understand why Catholics want to merit God’s gracious FREE GIFT
(5X in Rm5) and steal His glory?

Faith by itself does not get things “done” in the kingdom, only when you have faith in action, works/charity, do things get “done”. The Gospel message of Jesus Christ does not get spread to the ends of the earth by just saying you have faith, you actually have to do something afterwards, like send missionaries to other countries, or conduct a bible study, or work at a soup kitchen, or visit a prison or hospital, etc. 1 Cor. 13:2 “if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.” Love is greater than faith. This is the basis for doing charitable works. This is truly how things get “done” in the kingdom.

Doctrines are built on the context of all Scripture, not just a verse here and there that tickles your ears.

 

[acseawell]

The Protestants cannot “self proclaim and save” themselves. If they knew they were heaven bound, they would be JESUS. JESUS grants salvation, not a book. The bible teaches the Christian faith, which includes JESUS proclaiming that HE has formed a church, HIS church. Not multiple churches and not multiple flavors, nuances or essences of the HIS church - just ONE Church.
Our Protestant brothers and sister have to answer the question to themselves, that if JESUS formed ONE church, and the protestant church did not arrive upon the world for almost 1,500 after JESUS, how then can the claim of “self salvation” through the bible be true, when as a matter of fact and time, the protestant church cannot be the ONE church formed by JESUS.

Catholics are not guaranteed salvation by being Catholic. JESUS grants salvation, not the catholic church. But Catholics have the roots and facts and time that undeniably lead directly back to the day, month, moment and voice of JESUS declaring the formation of HIS church. Read the gospel of Matthew and you will see that GOD the FATHER chose Peter, not JESUS, JESUS " …for MY part I pronounce you Petra and upon this Rock I will build MY Church." paraphrase. GOD selected, and JESUS anointed. Just as GOD chose Abraham, and Moses so HE chose Peter.

Salvation is granted by JESUS to those who love. If you love you cannot be associated in any fashion with the murder of children, or any organization or party that supports the murder of children. If you love you cannot be racist, you cannot hate the “image of GOD” which is in each of us. If you love you must provide charity with mercy. Open the doors as everyone is welcome, turn no one away, but teach the truth of JESUS. If you love, you follow JESUS and HIS WAY, TRUTH , LIGHT and LIFE.

Good post, Julian

 

[PJM]

=PRmerger;13258888]And yet here you are showing just one verse to support your view.

Incidentally, how many verses are required in order to support our view?

Here’s what you’re overlooking my friend:

Jesus was NOT “reinventing the wheel” here; He was just following His Own Tradtion and now under Grace PERFECTING IT:thumbsup:

Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … Lev.6:7 “and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

Lev.4: 20,26, 31 “Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven. …] And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven. …And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a pleasing odor to the LORD; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

It is foolish to underestimate God’s Love and Mercy and evrn more so to attempt to dictate to God How he WILL forgive our sins.

As for the single verse:

Either the Bible [all of it Gods inspired word or NONE of it is

**Matthew 4:4
Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.

2nd Timothy 3:16-17
16] All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, [17] That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work

WE CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAY’S. Either God is in charge or we presume to be enabled to do it ALL ourselves.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=Michael68;13259748]Hi! Please answer for me why P say we have a works based Salvation when we are obeying the Lord? I have seen this accusation several times on P forums and has led me to this conclusion: P don’t understand what works are. They claim some scriptures about not doing works so no one should boast. I think this is taken out of context and not to mean do nothing.

WELCOME TO CAF!

And I think you’re right. God has with held the grace needed for right understanding until in humility they turn to Him with a desire to discover and then
; are willing to repent and convert HIS WAY.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=benhur;13259707]Hi M,

This is from another thread:

“Yet P’s may stress being P and not C inherently because they feel CC does not stress this new birth enough or through works. C’s probably inherently do not want possible converts to be P’s because they think P’s do not stress works.”

So maybe we are wrong and confusing obedience with your works , but I would say you are wrong in saying we have a no “obedience” gospel.

All of it is obedience, including faith.

Do you feel we became born again because we felt like it ? Yes, we were drawn and became so ultimately out of obedience to the faith that He placed in us, that it pleased Him. And that He desired our salvation more than we ever could or did. An obedient response to His loving call, not a legalistic, get out of hell card.

And likewise we follow obediently as so graced to do the good works as destined before the foundation of the world. The good news is that we no longer obey to achieve, acquire, but because we we have already acquired all in Christ. The more we realize that the more we build by faith and obedience on that.

Blessings

Ben, my friend, the problem is a Protestant Instance on doing it THEIR way; the result of recent 17th Century innovations; rather than doing it God’s way.

Ben how was salvation effected prior to Wycliffe, Luther and Calvin? Or was their none:shrug:

Rather a pride-filled position to hold in My Opinion:shrug:

God Bless you my ffriend,

Patrick

 

[benhur]

Faith by itself does not get things “done” in the kingdom, only when you have faith in action, works/charity, do things get “done”. The Gospel message of Jesus Christ does not get spread to the ends of the earth by just saying you have faith, you actually have to do something afterwards, like send missionaries to other countries, or conduct a bible study, or work at a soup kitchen, or visit a prison or hospital, etc. 1 Cor. 13:2 “if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.” Love is greater than faith. This is the basis for doing charitable works. This is truly how things get “done” in the kingdom.

Doctrines are built on the context of all Scripture, not just a verse here and there that tickles your ears.

Hi JMM,

The thread deals with “salvation” of the individual. “Getting things done” does not save you .“Getting things done” assumes life, spiritual life (a corpse can not get things done). Getting things done is what is done after one has life. Getting things done shows you have life (with the caveat that spiritual corpses-goats -can also appear to be doing things also).

Where we differ is that you combine justification with sanctification (a setting aside to get things done, being fashioned for a purpose, after justification/new birth). That is it is almost like the CC says sanctification “saves” you. Or it is a preoccupation in “getting things done” to continue being saved. We would say yes be preoccupied, but not to be saved , but because you are saved, but now, what kind of Christian will you be, and to claim, fulfill, all that has been destined for you, to claim your full reward. (reward is not heaven, for you have that promise already).

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Ben, my friend, the problem is a Protestant Instance on doing it THEIR way; the result of recent 17th Century innovations; rather than doing it God’s way.

Ben how was salvation effected prior to Wycliffe, Luther and Calvin? Or was their none:shrug:

Rather a pride-filled position to hold in My Opinion:shrug:

God Bless you my ffriend,

Patrick

Hi Patrick,

Could it be a pride filled position that will not even consider that there was always effectual salvation (gospel) but somehow got muddled up by the time of the what we call the reformers and others heretics ? That is, the position that there was really nothing ever to reform ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

The obedience to God is faith . So many times in the Gospels Jesus says" Be it done unto you according to your faith. Faith is what gets things done in the kingdom. The “work” of God is to believe Jn6:29.
I don’t understand why Catholics want to merit God’s gracious FREE GIFT
(5X in Rm5) and steal His glory?

The CC does defines grace as : “a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim.” . It gets sticky when faith is by grace, and works are by grace, and sacramental efficacy is by grace, and it is all salvation, and justification and sanctification are almost interchangeable words in that regard.

Merit may also be misunderstood as with rewards. Heaven is not a “reward”. Heaven is not merited. Now, to sit at His right hand side, or even ten chairs down, that is a reward. Our actual “jobs”, responsibilities in the kingdom, are “rewards”, that which Paul strived for, and desired not to lose, but gain all that was foreordained for him.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

sorry booboo

 

[Michael68]

Hi JMM,

The thread deals with “salvation” of the individual. “Getting things done” does not save you .“Getting things done” assumes life, spiritual life (a corpse can not get things done). Getting things done is what is done after one has life. Getting things done shows you have life (with the caveat that spiritual corpses-goats -can also appear to be doing things also).

Where we differ is that you combine justification with sanctification (a setting aside to get things done, being fashioned for a purpose, after justification/new birth). That is it is almost like the CC says sanctification “saves” you. Or it is a preoccupation in “getting things done” to continue being saved. We would say yes be preoccupied, but not to be saved , but because you are saved, but now, what kind of Christian will you be, and to claim, fulfill, all that has been destined for you, to claim your full reward. (reward is not heaven, for you have that promise already).

Blessings

We are not “saved” until our life is over. That is what St. Paul was saying when he wrote to run the race, to fight the good fight to attain the prize which is Salvation

 

[JMM1957]

The CC does defines grace as : “a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim.” . It gets sticky when faith is by grace, and works are by grace, and sacramental efficacy is by grace, and it is all salvation, and justification and sanctification are almost interchangeable words in that regard.

Very true, and my opinion is that this would be a good place to end the debate, because anything else that is added will just be more of the same thing. Much of our differences come down to the meaning of “words”, wouldn’t you agree? I think both sides really do have the general idea of how we are justified or saved, and the idea that Paul and James seem to have different viewpoints on faith/works only shows that the passing of time has not changed much when it comes to the P’s and C’s viewpoints. I think that there is room for us both to be correct, if we just make some small compromises in our language.

 

[phil19034]

the quote " But Catholics have the roots and facts and time that undeniably lead directly back to the day, month, moment and voice of JESUS declaring the formation of HIS church"

so does the Anglican communion -the Old catholics -of course the Orthodox

The Old Catholics (for now) and the Orthodox both are still offer valid sacraments.

The Orthodox are simply in schism. They not heretical, expect for their view of the Bishop of Rome and divorce. Otherwise, they still hold onto the same Deposit of Faith as the Catholic Church. Their beliefs are fundamentally no different that of Eastern Catholics’

 

[JustaServant]

i thought this was interesting – as i have been educated - as a catholic – and also have attended - 5 different bible colleges – and graduated from 2 universities

NO teacher – as presented - the 3 infallanable rules-- now this is because – of course–

because the assembling of the scriptures-- is a (catholic ? ) book ?

and here i thought it was a Jewish torah book-- with the added - commentary and teaching of deciples of Jesus-- on the application - and demenstration of how the Holy Spirit works through people-- kinda a like a “smart phone”

but every one can quote scripture - with out it affecting the out come or having any Holy Spirit result-

non catholic get into covenant by – beliving in Romans 10:8,9,10–

and as PJM – elaborated- catholic have a whole bunch of - requirement to believe and apply –

Jesus said his way with the baptism of the Holy Spirit was light and easy-- so we have people entering into covenant-- also using john 1:12,13

John 1:12-13 - Bible Gateway
biblegateway.com/passage/?..John+1:12-…

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural.

but PJM

offerrs a more religious way–

and any other way Must be man made-- especially if you have no spiritual decernment - and can not recognize - the application of the Holy Spirit - and besides –
the catholic relilgion has the better ceremonies and rituals

THEE Infallible Rule 's

for RIGHT Understanding of the Bible

[which is a Catholic Book]

1…Never ever can, may, or DOES

2…One passage, teaching or verse

3…Have the Power or authority to
Invalidate, override or make void another
Passage, teaching or verse; were this even the slightest bit possible [ITS NOT],

4…it would render the bible as worthless to teach or learn ones Faith.

Alvin, do you have a job?
No, seriously…do you?

 

[JMM1957]

and besides –
the catholic religion has the better ceremonies and rituals

At least you recognize this to be true. The Catholic Mass is a beautiful prayer to God from the gathered faithful.

 

[In_His_Grace]

At least you recognize this to be true. The Catholic Mass is a beautiful prayer to God from the gathered faithful.

I agree with your statement. My wife is a 48 year old cradle Catholic and I’ve been to Mass with her often. Beautiful.

Blessings

 

[PRmerger]

Merit may also be misunderstood as with rewards. Heaven is not a “reward”. Heaven is not merited.

This is a novel way to look at things. Not the traditional Christian view, to be sure.

That is, what you propose is a man-made tradition.

Even the Protestant Lutheran Book of Concord states: “We grant that **eternal life is a reward **because it is something that is owed—not because of our merits [in the strict sense] but because of the promise [of God]. We have shown above that justification is strictly a gift of God; it is a thing promised. To this gift the promise of eternal life has been added” .

 

[PRmerger]

because the assembling of the scriptures-- is a (catholic ? ) book ?

This is correct.

and here i thought it was a Jewish torah book-- with the added - commentary and teaching of deciples of Jesus

Well, Judaism had no canon that decided by Jewish authorities. There were multiple canons.

But you are correct in that men added the NT…Catholic men. Catholic bishops, to be exact.

and as PJM – elaborated- catholic have a whole bunch of - requirement to believe and apply –

**All **Christians should have these requirements and beliefs that should be applied.

 

[benhur]

We are not “saved” until our life is over. That is what St. Paul was saying when he wrote to run the race, to fight the good fight to attain the prize which is Salvation

Ok.Kindly disagree. Paul was not referring also to losing his salvation. The prize ,reward. is not salvation. As the Lord says in Rev 22 ,“Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me”. This all has to do with the judgement seat of Christ where we will be given rewards or have some taken away depending on of works in the kingdom. For instance who shall sit on His right side, or anywhere else ? Would that not be a reward ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

This is a novel way to look at things. Not the traditional Christian view, to be sure.

That is, what you propose is a man-made tradition.

Even the Protestant Lutheran Book of Concord states: “We grant that **eternal life is a reward **because it is something that is owed—not because of our merits [in the strict sense] but because of the promise [of God]. We have shown above that justification is strictly a gift of God; it is a thing promised. To this gift the promise of eternal life has been added” .

Ok. Reward has several meanings. Reward then in the biblical sense of our conversation is then a reward as per gift, or without merit, or what we have done. It is not earned. My latter statement “heaven is not merited” qualifies “heaven is not a reward”. That your quote leaves out the “not” ok, the idea is the same. Gift,unmerited.

Blessings PR

PS Good quote find

 

[PRmerger]

Ok. Reward has several meanings. Reward then in the biblical sense of our conversation is then a reward as per gift, or without merit, or what we have done. It is not earned. My latter statement “heaven is not merited” qualifies “heaven is not a reward”. That your quote leaves out the “not” ok, the idea is the same. Gift,unmerited.

Blessings PR

PS Good quote find

Let me ask you this, ben: are all Christians permitted to read the Bible and come to their own understanding of what it means? And then, does that mean we can read the Bible and decide what reward means in the Biblical sense, per our own prayer and inspiration?

And if my view is different (even contrary) than yours, are we still both right?