What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[PJM]

=benhur;13262004]Hi Patrick,

Could it be a pride filled position that will not even consider that there was always effectual salvation (gospel) but somehow got muddled up by the time of the what we call the reformers and others heretics ? That is, the position that there was really nothing ever to reform ?

Blessings

No

It’s not possible [Jesus can’t be wrong]

Its not biblical [Mt 10:1-8; Mt 16:15-19, John 17: 11-26,. Mt 28: 16-20]

Its not historical [today’s Catholic Church existed for some 1,600 YEARS before the innovations and descent of Wycliffe, Luther and Calvin… secular history provable]

But thanks for asking:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

hlic Church existed for some 1,600 years before the man

and 3 strikes and your “out”

 

[PJM]

=1944;13262901]i thought this was interesting – as i have been educated - as a catholic – and also have attended - 5 different bible colleges – and graduated from 2 universities

NO teacher – as presented - the 3 infallanable rules-- now this is because – of course–

because the assembling of the scriptures-- is a (catholic ? ) book ?

and here i thought it was a Jewish torah book-- with the added - commentary and teaching of deciples of Jesus-- on the application - and demenstration of how the Holy Spirit works through people-- kinda a like a “smart phone”

but every one can quote scripture - with out it affecting the out come or having any Holy Spirit result-

non catholic get into covenant by – beliving in Romans 10:8,9,10–

and as PJM – elaborated- catholic have a whole bunch of - requirement to believe and apply –

Jesus said his way with the baptism of the Holy Spirit was light and easy-- so we have people entering into covenant-- also using john 1:12,13

John 1:12-13 - Bible Gateway
biblegateway.com/passage/?..John+1:12-…

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural.

but PJM

offerrs a more religious way–

and any other way Must be man made-- especially if you have no spiritual decernment - and can not recognize - the application of the Holy Spirit - and besides –
the catholic relilgion has the better ceremonies and rituals

THEE Infallible Rule 's

for RIGHT Understanding of the Bible

[which is a Catholic Book]

1…Never ever can, may, or DOES

2…One passage, teaching or verse

3…Have the Power or authority to
Invalidate, override or make void another
Passage, teaching or verse; were this even the slightest bit possible [ITS NOT],

4…it would render the bible as worthless to teach or learn ones Faith.

THANK YOU *

My friend I am awed by your education and background. WOW! All this in the search for truth which MUST BE SINGULAR per defined issue; as former Pope Benedict [who might even have more education and better qualification than do you:shrug: said]:

"There can’t be your truth and my truth or their would be no truth"

If I understand you’re critique of my o my post; I missed how you were able to sorta jump over the Infallible rule for RIGHT understanding of the bible… did I miss it?

In summary it teaches that no one part of the bible can override or void another part of the bible; that if such were a possibility it would render the entire bible as worthless thus voiding the teaching of 2nd Tim 3:16-17; that you no doubt aware of.

Being the expert that you ARE, perhaps you can clarify for me a few things that have long puzzled me?

Just where in the bible did God; Yahweh or Jesus even one time tolerate competing faiths and or faith-beliefs? And secondly what is the foundational basis for Protestantism? And third might you explain just why Christ waited some 1,600 YEARS to make His Truth [which I THOUGHT HAD TO BE SINGULAR] , and which by the way of the thousands of differing sets of faith beliefs held by the Protestant community IS THEE single truth?

As for the bible being a "Catholic Book"

**Permit me to clarify my intent:

It was the Early Catholic Church that selected the Jewish text to be included; then it was ALL Catholic Authors who authored the entire New Testament; then it was the Catholic Church that set the Canon of the Bible; that lasted for about 1,500 years [setting aside minor ineffective efforts to replace it] until Luther’s revision caught on [the KJB] in the late 17th Century] with is omissions [originally of 7 entire books] and multiple text revisions.**

So fiend I delighted that at long last I can get informed responses to these questions which have long bothered me.

Thank you and God Bless you!

Patrick.*

 

[JonNC]

The problem as I see it is that Protestants erroneously see obeying God as works. They teach a No Works Gospel which is not biblical.

Source.

Here’s mine:

From the Lutheran Confessions:

"3. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works."
Bound here means, not just certain to, but required.

**“6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.” **

Failure to do good works is sin.

Jon

 

[Michael68]

Source.

Here’s mine:

From the Lutheran Confessions:

"3. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works."
Bound here means, not just certain to, but required.

**“6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.” **

Failure to do good works is sin.

Jon

I can agree with this

 

[In_His_Grace]

Amen! Very Catholic, this.

Hi PRmerger,

I desire so much that I had the time to respond to you as well as others. My day from the time I get up in the morning until I sleep at night is completely consumed. My wife and I are raising my grandson (6 1/2 months), my daughter (21) is unfit to do so. When mom passed away two years ago my wife and I moved in with dad so I can care for him. Dad is well into the advanced stage of Alzheimer’s and severely deteriorating physically. This is taking a toll on me and I ask for the prayers of all my brothers and sisters in Christ. The Catholic understanding is suffering makes so much sense to me.

pax

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PRmerger,

I desire so much that I had the time to respond to you as well as others. My day from the time I get up in the morning until I sleep at night is completely consumed. My wife and I are raising my grandson (6 1/2 months), my daughter (21) is unfit to do so. When mom passed away two years ago my wife and I moved in with dad so I can care for him. Dad is well into the advanced stage of Alzheimer’s and severely deteriorating physically. This is taking a toll on me and I ask for the prayers of all my brothers and sisters in Christ. The Catholic understanding is suffering makes so much sense to me.

pax

Oh! You truly have taken up His Cross.

Thank you for being such a good son, father and grandfather!

As Pope John Paul II said: don’t waste your suffering. Offer it up for the salvation ofthe world!

Prayers for strength and patience for you going up right now, In His Grace.

 

[benhur]

How about this one, Psalm 69:28…27Add iniquity to their iniquity, And may they not come into Your righteousness. 28May they be blotted out of the book of life. And may they not be recorded with the righteous. 29But I am afflicted and in pain; May Your salvation, O God, set me securely on high.…

Thanks , but we are still not sure it happens, but that it can happen (the psalm is a “request”,and Rev is a warning).

Some think everyone starts out in the book but the unsaved somewhere get blotted out. The psalm does not seem to indicate the persecutors are "saved’’ that they have not entered or come to “righteousness”.

Not sure how the book works in that regard.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I’m sorry. I don’t know what that means.

Do you submit to your church on some theological matters, even when you disagree personally?

Not sure what u don’t understand. Did not totally like my wording on the latter but meant I have probably erred at times at my objecting wrongly or hypocritically.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I’ve never heard the “catholic position” described as “sanctification saves you” before. This is however extremely close to thee truth [as truth must be singular per defined issue.

Well i wrote that she almost says that. Actually , I think she says sanctification justifies.

I get somehow the impression that you MIGHT be scoffing at this principle?

[/QUOTE]

 

[eazyduzit]

I know that you don’t want to believe that a heavenly reward is salvation itself, but it is ben, because in your mind you keep wanting to not associate any kind of works with salvation, but I’m afraid James especially, and even Paul, tells us that works are necessary to complete our faith.

Lets look at 2 Tim.4: 6-8 again.…6For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have long for His appearing.

If Paul had not done the very things he just mentioned, do you thing he would have been awarded the crown of righteousness on that day? The crown of righteousness is not some kind of separate reward apart from salvation. Are you going to make me show you even more examples of heaven being OUR reward?

Then are you saying that there are NO levels of extra reward ? Everyone receives the same regardless of their faith or service?

 

[eazyduzit]

Then you ought not be here doing what the Catholic Church does, to which you respond, “I don’t need a Church to tell me what’s the correct interpretation. I get to decide what I think is right.”

Why do you reserve for yourself what you object to in the CC?

In the end, we are individually responsible for our response to the Gospel. We will not be able to make the excuse that we didn’t know because a certain church threw us off course with a slanted teaching. The Bible gives plenty of warnings about false teachers. If we learn to listen to our shepherd and know His voice,then we will not be led astray. Jesus said “Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in My name. …and shall deceive MANY” .

 

[JMM1957]

Thanks , but we are still not sure it happens, but that it can happen (the psalm is a “request”,and Rev is a warning).

Some think everyone starts out in the book but the unsaved somewhere get blotted out. The psalm does not seem to indicate the persecutors are "saved’’ that they have not entered or come to “righteousness”.

Not sure how the book works in that regard.

Blessings

May be a little difficult to interpret the exact meaning, but I do believe that verse 28 is speaking of something that is certainly possible to happen.

 

[PJM]

This is correct.
]

Well, Judaism had no canon that decided by Jewish authorities. There were multiple canons.

But you are correct in that men added the NT…Catholic men. Catholic bishops, to be exact.

**All **Christians should have these requirements and beliefs that should be applied.

Thank you

Patick

 

[JMM1957]

Then are you saying that there are NO levels of extra reward ? Everyone receives the same regardless of their faith or service?

This is something that has always been debated among different Christian groups, and in my opinion is not something that we should concern ourselves with, after all, isn’t eternal life itself our goal? Why would anyone be looking for extra rewards in heaven? I do know that God shows no partiality. There is much about heaven that we don’t understand yet, so we will just have to wait for that day.

 

[PJM]

=benhur;13266618]Well i wrote that she almost says that. Actually , I think she says sanctification justifies.
yes, disagree to her principle. I think justification and sanctification are different, especially when we use saved as being born again primarily.
from post 139 on trent horn /denomination thread:

"Yes, the Lord asked that . It is still an assumption that those works of charity saved them. For we also know of many agnostic , atheistic, and folks from other religions who have plenty of good works. Yet, the context is the church, those professing to be Christian. We also have "Christians’’ who have done good works and Christ also sends them to hell. We also know Christ asks us to be perfect, that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, if not we go to hell. You must obey all the commandments, and if you break one, even in spirit or in your heart , you have broken them all, and go to hell if unconfessed. He also said you must persevere to the end, that if you quit , you go to hell. You must also have the love of the Father,if not you go to hell.

Lot of stuff to do and be to make it heaven. It certainly can not be by faith alone some would then wrongly say. Yet I would ask does not faith thru the new life produce those things? I would say none of the things I mentioned, or that the Lord mentioned, produce one speck of life. But as you almost say, are to happen only after we have that life. It does begin and end with “I know you” and He accomplishes that righteousness in us. We are created, come to know Him, for those good works,". They do not make you a “sheep”. But a sheep is created to give wool and sustenance. Giving wool does not create , or keep created the sheep (healthy maybe but it won’t turn it into a goat otherwise)."

Yes, we differ on what “It is finished” means and what the veil being torn in two in the temple means,and the middle wall of partition being done away with . It is also OT where we now are truly a nation of priests .That was promised to the children of Israel upon leaving Egypt .They sinned and the promise went unfulfilled, and only then was one tribe designated as “priests”. Christ and His body now fulfill this.

Blessings

Thank you!

“It is finished” means ONLY that witch the Father has Ordained as the Mission of Jesus was now complete.

Perhaps you took note of the fact that Jsus from the Cross ALSO said: “I THIRST”

John 19: 26-30
“[26] When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. [27] After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. [28] Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst.”

Obviously that proclamation does not refer to a “physical need”; although it certainty was a reality; were this the case Christ would have asked much earlier; NO, this means that Christ sought to do more. And What “More” can and did Christ do?

He hives to humanity His Church, their infallibility of teaching on ALL matters to be believed in Faith matters and or Morals, and He gives humanity His Mother so assist us and direct aright our path to Him.

I noticed however that your response did not address ALL of the issues that I raided.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=In His Grace;13266223]Hi PRmerger,

I desire so much that I had the time to respond to you as well as others. My day from the time I get up in the morning until I sleep at night is completely consumed. My wife and I are raising my grandson (6 1/2 months), my daughter (21) is unfit to do so. When mom passed away two years ago my wife and I moved in with dad so I can care for him. Dad is well into the advanced stage of Alzheimer’s and severely deteriorating physically. This is taking a toll on me and I ask for the prayers of all my brothers and sisters in Christ. The Catholic understanding is suffering makes so much sense to me.

pax

May God grant you both super abundant graces to carry this cross of both joy and dorow.

Patrick

 

[In_His_Grace]

Thanks PRmerger and Patrick. I should know better then to post when I’m drinking like yesterday. I’m kind of a loner (understatement) and guess I needed somewhere to vent.

God bless both of you.

 

[Michael68]

Then are you saying that there are NO levels of extra reward ? Everyone receives the same regardless of their faith or service?

Not sure what you mean by levels of reward.

 

[benhur]

May be a little difficult to interpret the exact meaning, but I do believe that verse 28 is speaking of something that is certainly possible to happen.

Absolutely possible for one not to be in the book. Horror of all horrors.

 

[benhur]

This is something that has always been debated among different Christian groups, and in my opinion is not something that we should concern ourselves with, after all, isn’t eternal life itself our goal? Why would anyone be looking for extra rewards in heaven? I do know that God shows no partiality. There is much about heaven that we don’t understand yet, so we will just have to wait for that day.

I thought Paul was very concerned about it. It was in the “race” discourse. Do not think he was talking about heaven but finishing his destiny, his earthly mission, to its fullest, in which he, like all of us, will be awarded accordingly. Like who will sit at His right hand , or even 3rd from the left etc etc ?