What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[benhur]

Acts 2: 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

Luke 18: 15And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. 16But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.”

Good but not literary interpretations of the quotes. A bit mystical interpretation that by letting children sit on His lap Christ was signifying He will regenerate infants in baptism.

Blessings

 

[In_His_Grace]

Very good rebuttal. But it cuts both ways.It shows the Spirit can not be confined to a “ceremony” or rite/sacrament. It can give credence to symbolic view of baptism etc., that they show the already spiritual reality.

Suffice it to say indeed let us be baptized in the Holy Ghost , let us be “born again” but to take care about blanket statements on just how that happens in a sacrament/rite, if it does at all.

If anyone questions infant regeneration thru water baptism it is probably because they question water baptism as the cause in regeneration in anyone.

But good point on John the Baptist.

Blessings

Hi benhur,

I’m just wondering, not necessarily related to baptism as baptism had not yet been instituted by Christ, did God grant faith to John the Baptist while he was yet in his mother’s womb due to the fact that he was “filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb”? What would you say?

“… and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. …the baby leaped in her womb…the baby leaped in my womb for joy.” (Luke 1:15,41,44)

God bless.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Very good rebuttal. But it cuts both ways.It shows the Spirit can not be confined to a “ceremony” or rite/sacrament. It can give credence to symbolic view of baptism etc., that they show the already spiritual reality.

Suffice it to say indeed let us be baptized in the Holy Ghost , let us be “born again” but to take care about blanket statements on just how that happens in a sacrament/rite, if it does at all.

If anyone questions infant regeneration thru water baptism it is probably because they question water baptism as the cause in regeneration in anyone.

But good point on John the Baptist.

Blessings

Also, as to whether or not God grants faith to infants through the Sacrament of Baptism, Lutherans would say yes and Catholics would say no. I realize you don’t hold to the view of baptism being a sacrament.

Thanks and blessings.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Very good rebuttal. But it cuts both ways.It shows the Spirit can not be confined to a “ceremony” or rite/sacrament. It can give credence to symbolic view of baptism etc., that they show the already spiritual reality.

Suffice it to say indeed let us be baptized in the Holy Ghost , let us be “born again” but to take care about blanket statements on just how that happens in a sacrament/rite, if it does at all.

If anyone questions infant regeneration thru water baptism it is probably because they question water baptism as the cause in regeneration in anyone.

But good point on John the Baptist.

Blessings

Another thing that really strikes me in the passage below is the fact John the Baptist, in the presence of Jesus (yet in Mary’s womb), “leaped in my (Elizabeth’s) womb for joy” indicating knowledge, recognition, faith in his Lord and Savior even while yet in the womb. Just my thoughts.

“… and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. …the baby leaped in her womb…the baby leaped in my womb for joy.” (Luke 1:15,41,44)

Again, thanks and blessings.

 

[JMM1957]

Good but not literary interpretations of the quotes. A bit mystical interpretation that by letting children sit on His lap Christ was signifying He will regenerate infants in baptism.

Blessings

Wasn’t saying these quotes themselves prove anything about infant baptism, just that they do prove “the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” From that statement you can deduct that infant baptism is to be done. Baptism replaces circumcision which was done on infants, which was a sign of that child being a member of the old covenant. These babies certainly were not capable of faith at that age back in the OT and NT times, just as babies are not capable of faith today, but it is a sign of them becoming members of the body of Christ in the new covenant.

 

[zz912]

Good but not literary interpretations of the quotes. A bit mystical interpretation that by letting children sit on His lap Christ was signifying He will regenerate infants in baptism.

Blessings

How old were Israelis when they were made part of the Old Covenant? (8 days old by circumcision)

Baptism is directly correlated to circumcision in Scripture.

Where does Jesus limit those who can enter into His New Covenant?

 

[zz912]

I am confused by your claims PR. First i am told that Catholics are not saved in baptism and now thy are? Does it depend on who we ask?

I’m not sure why you are confused, it is pretty easy. Baptism infuses the life of grace into us, and if we do not mortally sin, this life of grace remains. If we die with that life of grace, we will be saved. If we do not, we will be damned. If we mortally sin and kill the life of grace within us, we must restore the life to our souls by going to Confession.

Christians are saved, being saved, and hope to be saved.

Does that help?

 

[JMM1957]

Another thing that really strikes me in the passage below is the fact John the Baptist, in the presence of Jesus (yet in Mary’s womb), “leaped in my (Elizabeth’s) womb for joy” indicating knowledge, recognition, faith in his Lord and Savior even while yet in the womb. Just my thoughts.

“… and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. …the baby leaped in her womb…the baby leaped in my womb for joy.” (Luke 1:15,41,44)

Again, thanks and blessings.

Yes, and to be able to recognize Jesus in Mary’s womb means that John was literally overflowing with the Holy Spirit. When you really ponder this passage, it’s kind of astounding what the Spirit can do in a person.

 

[benhur]

Also, as to whether or not God grants faith to infants through the Sacrament of Baptism, Lutherans would say yes and Catholics would say no. I realize you don’t hold to the view of baptism being a sacrament.

Thanks and blessings.

Yikes. Well faith is a gift and God is sovereign ,but man .have no idea behind Lutheran view.Would need more explanantion.Like what kind of faith , a good faith ,a saving faith .Can unrighteousness behold ,have righteousness / Then they are saying God regenerates with baptism in infancy .

As far as implications of john the baptist, not sure. Just another example of how one can read a thing a million times, and then with one good question, one can see much pondering on the matter.

The only thing others have said about such anomalies is that they are just that. (Like Enoch .or IC, or Cornelius receiving HG before any ceremony etc.)

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Yes, and to be able to recognize Jesus in Mary’s womb means that John was literally overflowing with the Holy Spirit. When you really ponder this passage, it’s kind of astounding what the Spirit can do in a person.

Hi JMM,

Just read your post and smiled to see you used same word “ponder” about the matter.

Blessings

 

[Jesus_123]

If Catholics are Christians what are the steps they take to receive salvation?
Protestants believe Romans 10:9 & 10. Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and you shall be saved.

+A gentle reminder to please remember dear Catholic & other Christian brothers and sisters . . . it is the Sweet Spirit of our Holy God who brings about conversion of the hearts and souls of those children of God who belong to other Christian ecclesial communities (outside the Catholic Church) . . . and only He can authentically draw them into the greater light of God and into the richer depths of Catholicism . . . **and God’s timing is always perfect **. . . if a particular soul of another Christian community is to make such a journey . . .

I’ve always loved EWTN’s Father Mitch Pacwa’s emphasis that we are just . . . **simple workers **. . . in God’s vineyard . . . we can plant the precious seeds of Truth in regard to such things as salvation of souls and the gracious gift of the . . . Holy Eucharist . . . but it is God Alone who gives the increase . . . all in His good time . . .

The Thoughts of God from **Sacred :bible1: Scripture **on the subject of the salvation of souls of ALL **GOD’S **CHILDREN clearly answer the question for all the souls touched in the subject of this thread . . .

:coffeeread:

[8] “For by GRACE you are saved THROUGH FAITH, and that NOT of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] NOT of works, that NO man may glory. [10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Dear Lord for Thy Wonderful Holy Bible​

*God bless . . .

Keep the faith . . . *

. . . thank You Sweet Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . thank you Blessed Virgin Mary our Mother+
. . . Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow!+
:harp:​

 

[In_His_Grace]

I’m not sure why you are confused, it is pretty easy. Baptism infuses the life of grace into us, and if we do not mortally sin, this life of grace remains. If we die with that life of grace, we will be saved. If we do not, we will be damned. If we mortally sin and kill the life of grace within us, we must restore the life to our souls by going to Confession.

Christians are saved, being saved, and hope to be saved.

Does that help?

If we mortally sin and kill the life of grace within us, we must restore the life to our souls by going to Confession.

Hi zz912,

I just wanted to make sure I understand Catholic teaching. If a Catholic commits a mortal sin, is fully culpable for the guilt of said mortal sin (based on grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent of the will), deliberately, consciously, with ample opportunity to do so fails to go to confession, such a person will go to hell?

Thanks and blessings.

 

[JMM1957]

Hi JMM,

Just read your post and smiled to see you used same word “ponder” about the matter.

Blessings

 

[In_His_Grace]

Yes, and to be able to recognize Jesus in Mary’s womb means that John was literally overflowing with the Holy Spirit. When you really ponder this passage, it’s kind of astounding what the Spirit can do in a person.

… and while John was yet in Elizabeth’s womb.

amen!

 

[In_His_Grace]

Yikes. Well faith is a gift and God is sovereign ,but man .have no idea behind Lutheran view.Would need more explanantion.Like what kind of faith , a good faith ,a saving faith .Can unrighteousness behold ,have righteousness / Then they are saying God regenerates with baptism in infancy .

As far as implications of john the baptist, not sure. Just another example of how one can read a thing a million times, and then with one good question, one can see much pondering on the matter.

The only thing others have said about such anomalies is that they are just that. (Like Enoch .or IC, or Cornelius receiving HG before any ceremony etc.)

Blessings

Our God and Savior is wondrous and mysterious beyond our comprehension is He not? Worthy of our pondering, a joy and delight of our pondering, worthy of our praise all the days of our life. Words fail me. I posted the following in another thread, one of my all time favorite quotes, from Augustine’s “The confessions”, a book every Protestant should read …

Great are you, O Lord, and exceedingly worthy of praise; your power is immense, and your wisdom beyond reckoning. And so we men, who are a due part of your creation, long to praise you – we also carry our mortality about with us, carry the evidence of our sin and with it the proof that you thwart the proud. You arouse us so that praising you may bring us joy, because you have made us and drawn us to yourself, and our heart is unquiet until it rests in you.

The Lord bless you and keep you always benhur!

 

[JMM1957]

Our God and Savior is wondrous and mysterious beyond our comprehension is He not? Worthy of our pondering, a joy and delight of our pondering, worthy of our praise all the days of our life. Words fail me. I posted the following in another thread, one of my all time favorite quotes, from Augustine’s “The confessions”, a book every Protestant should read …

Great are you, O Lord, and exceedingly worthy of praise; your power is immense, and your wisdom beyond reckoning. And so we men, who are a due part of your creation, long to praise you – we also carry our mortality about with us, carry the evidence of our sin and with it the proof that you thwart the proud. You arouse us so that praising you may bring us joy, because you have made us and drawn us to yourself, and our heart is unquiet until it rests in you.

The Lord bless you and keep you always benhur!

That “pondering” word is coming up quite often lately isn’t it?

I have to agree, this is a great quote from Augustine.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Yikes. Well faith is a gift and God is sovereign ,but man .have no idea behind Lutheran view.Would need more explanantion.Like what kind of faith , a good faith ,a saving faith .Can unrighteousness behold ,have righteousness / Then they are saying God regenerates with baptism in infancy .

As far as implications of john the baptist, not sure. Just another example of how one can read a thing a million times, and then with one good question, one can see much pondering on the matter.

The only thing others have said about such anomalies is that they are just that. (Like Enoch .or IC, or Cornelius receiving HG before any ceremony etc.)

Blessings

Then they are saying God regenerates with baptism in infancy.

Yes, scripture as well as history attest to the reality of baptismal regeneration of infants. Of this I have no doubts whatsoever. That is my opinion anyway.

pax

 

[In_His_Grace]

That “pondering” word is coming up quite often lately isn’t it?

I have to agree, this is a great quote from Augustine.

 

[powerofk]

Hi zz912,

I just wanted to make sure I understand Catholic teaching. If a Catholic commits a mortal sin, is fully culpable for the guilt of said mortal sin (based on grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent of the will), deliberately, consciously, with ample opportunity to do so fails to go to confession, such a person will go to hell?

Thanks and blessings.

Yes, unless such a person is penitent in his/her heart at the point of death and dies before having the opportunity to confess. Since we do not know whether or not a person was penitent at the point of death, we assume final penitence for all. Because of this, we pray for all who have died, because we (a) do not know whether a person’s sins were, in fact, mortal, (b) do not know whether a person went to confession for those sins that were mortal, and (c) do not know whether a person who had not gone to confession was penitent of his/her sins in the final moments, yet died before being able to go to confession. So, we don’t know the status of the souls of anyone. We pray to help them get out of purgatory, if they are there, and pray that they had final penitence before they died.

 

[PRmerger]

Neither indeed can a baby have faith so i think it might be better not making them the example.

Why can’t we use them as an example?

Do you not agree that the fact that Catholicism has her babies baptized indicates that salvation is a free gift from God and that we do nothing at all to earn this salvation?