What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[PJM]

=In His Grace;13267229]Thanks PRmerger and Patrick. I should know better then to post when I’m drinking like yesterday. I’m kind of a loner (understatement) and guess I needed somewhere to vent.

God bless both of you.

You ARE entirely welcome!

PRAY much!

 

[PJM]

=JMM1957;13267128]This is something that has always been debated among different Christian groups, and in my opinion is not something that we should concern ourselves with, after all, isn’t eternal life itself our goal? Why would anyone be looking for extra rewards in heaven? I do know that God shows no partiality. There is much about heaven that we don’t understand yet, so we will just have to wait for that day.

No Actually not

The debate ended when Jesus told the bickering Apostles when James and Johns mom asked Jesus to place her sons on his right and left in the kingdom; and Jesus replied "Cf. That is not mine to give.

Secondly: assuming everyone will be exactly the same as far as nearness to God overlooks God’s absolute necessary Justice.

A Martyr who sacrifices their life for Christ & someone who repents, and converts on their death bed after a life of sin and pride; and receives The Final Anointing CANNOT be judged in the same identical manner:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[JMM1957]

No Actually not

The debate ended when Jesus told the bickering Apostles when James and Johns mom asked Jesus to place her sons on his right and left in the kingdom; and Jesus replied "Cf. That is not mine to give.

Secondly: assuming everyone will be exactly the same as far as nearness to God overlooks God’s absolute necessary Justice.

A Martyr who sacrifices their life for Christ & someone who repents, and converts on their death bed after a life of sin and pride; and receives The Final Anointing CANNOT be judged in the same identical manner:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

Unless I am misunderstanding, doesn’t the parable of the workers in the vineyard (Matt. 20) show otherwise? Wasn’t the wage (one denarius) given to everyone no matter when they started working in the vineyard that day?

 

[eazyduzit]

I’m not sure why you are confused, it is pretty easy. Baptism infuses the life of grace into us, and if we do not mortally sin, this life of grace remains. If we die with that life of grace, we will be saved. If we do not, we will be damned. If we mortally sin and kill the life of grace within us, we must restore the life to our souls by going to Confession.

Christians are saved, being saved, and hope to be saved.

Does that help?

Interesting. But please explain what is the " life of grace"? Is there a biblical reference? What are the effects of it? Does scripture speak of the “infusing power” of baptism?

 

[JMM1957]

Interesting. But please explain what is the " life of grace"? Is there a biblical reference? What are the effects of it? Does scripture speak of the “infusing power” of baptism?

If you type in “catholicpamplets.net” into the address box at the top of your page, it will take you to their site, then just type in “life of grace” into that search box. There you will find the explanation that you are looking for. I’m sorry, I am not that great with computers yet (almost 60 yrs. old) and not sure of how to post links to make it easier. I’ll try to work on that!

 

[PRmerger]

I am confused by your claims PR. First i am told that Catholics are not saved in baptism and now thy are? Does it depend on who we ask?

Salvation is a process. It begins at baptism. It ends when one is standing before the Eternal Godhead.

Take home points regarding our soteriology:

• no one knows if he is saved until he is dead. Period.
• Baptism saves us. Until we sin again.
• Infant baptism proves that Catholicism does not believe in works salvation.

 

[Techno2000]

If you type in “catholicpamplets.net” into the address box at the top of your page, it will take you to their site, then just type in “life of grace” into that search box. There you will find the explanation that you are looking for. I’m sorry, I am not that great with computers yet (almost 60 yrs. old) and not sure of how to post links to make it easier. I’ll try to work on that!

Here I copied and pasted this Link: youtube.com/watch?v=5t6xFKvCeD0 … So you can learn how to copy and paste a web Link.

 

[JMM1957]

Here I copied and pasted this Link: youtube.com/watch?v=5t6xFKvCeD0 … So you can learn how to copy and paste a web Link.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Yes, unless such a person is penitent in his/her heart at the point of death and dies before having the opportunity to confess. Since we do not know whether or not a person was penitent at the point of death, we assume final penitence for all. Because of this, we pray for all who have died, because we (a) do not know whether a person’s sins were, in fact, mortal, (b) do not know whether a person went to confession for those sins that were mortal, and (c) do not know whether a person who had not gone to confession was penitent of his/her sins in the final moments, yet died before being able to go to confession. So, we don’t know the status of the souls of anyone. We pray to help them get out of purgatory, if they are there, and pray that they had final penitence before they died.

Yes, I understand. Also, people are so complicated, lives lived that are so complex, so many factors and variables involved in determining whether or not a person is culpable for the guilt of a mortal sin committed, by the person who committed the mortal or anyone else even the best of priest hearing confessions? Possibly, in the end this is something only God would know, the final Judge?

Blessings

 

[Michael68]

Salvation is a process. It begins at baptism. It ends when one is standing before the Eternal Godhead.

Take home points regarding our soteriology:

• no one knows if he is saved until he is dead. Period.
• Baptism saves us. Until we sin again.
• Infant baptism proves that Catholicism does not believe in works salvation.

Nuff said!!!

 

[In_His_Grace]

Yes, unless such a person is penitent in his/her heart at the point of death and dies before having the opportunity to confess. Since we do not know whether or not a person was penitent at the point of death, we assume final penitence for all. Because of this, we pray for all who have died, because we (a) do not know whether a person’s sins were, in fact, mortal, (b) do not know whether a person went to confession for those sins that were mortal, and (c) do not know whether a person who had not gone to confession was penitent of his/her sins in the final moments, yet died before being able to go to confession. So, we don’t know the status of the souls of anyone. We pray to help them get out of purgatory, if they are there, and pray that they had final penitence before they died.

Having said all of this if a person goes to confession with a truly contrite and repentant heart and the priest absolves the persons sins they are forgiven irregardless of whether or not they were culpable for the guilt of a mortal sin committed. Is my understanding correct?

Thanks again.

 

[powerofk]

Yes, I understand. Also, people are so complicated, lives lived that are so complex, so many factors and variables involved in determining whether or not a person is culpable for the guilt of a mortal sin committed, by the person who committed the mortal or anyone else even the best of priest hearing confessions? Possibly, in the end this is something only God would know, the final Judge?

Blessings

Correct. Only God truly knows if a person is fully culpable of any sins that have not been confessed at the point of death. And this is especially true, as people often try to deceive themselves as to their own culpability (which is why it is good to confess all sins, especially all sins of grave matter, as it is often difficult to distinguish between whether a given sin is venial or mortal for a given person in a given situation).

Having said all of this if a person goes to confession with a truly contrite and repentant heart and the priest absolves the persons sins they are forgiven irregardless of whether or not they were culpable for the guilt of a mortal sin committed. Is my understanding correct?

Thanks again.

This is true. In fact, even if a person goes to confession merely because he/she is afraid of going to Hell if he/she doesn’t go to confession, all the person’s sins will be forgiven, as long as he/she told the priest all the mortal sins that he/she can remember (though, if he/she willfully withholds a particular mortal sin, he/she commits the additional sin of sacrilege and none of the person’s sins - even the ones confessed - are forgiven, even if the priest prays the words of absolution).

However, the priest does have the power to withhold forgiveness. This is generally done if the person either shows no remorse OR if the person is “living in sin” (living in a marital/sexual relationship outside of a valid marriage). The other reason a priest would withhold forgiveness is if the person has been excommunicated - regardless of whether the person was formally excommunicated or committed a sin which carries an automatic excommunication (such as abortion). In this case, the bishop (and in some cases, the Holy See), must lift the excommunication first (or deputize a priest to be able to do so) before the person can receive absolution again.

And remember, it’s Jesus who grants the forgiveness through the priest.

 

[JMM1957]

Correct. Only God truly knows if a person is fully culpable of any sins that have not been confessed at the point of death. And this is especially true, as people often try to deceive themselves as to their own culpability (which is why it is good to confess all sins, especially all sins of grave matter, as it is often difficult to distinguish between whether a given sin is venial or mortal for a given person in a given situation).

This is true. In fact, even if a person goes to confession merely because he/she is afraid of going to Hell if he/she doesn’t go to confession, all the person’s sins will be forgiven, as long as he/she told the priest all the mortal sins that he/she can remember (though, if he/she willfully withholds a particular mortal sin, he/she commits the additional sin of sacrilege and none of the person’s sins - even the ones confessed - are forgiven, even if the priest prays the words of absolution).

However, the priest does have the power to withhold forgiveness. This is generally done if the person either shows no remorse OR if the person is “living in sin” (living in a marital/sexual relationship outside of a valid marriage). The other reason a priest would withhold forgiveness is if the person has been excommunicated - regardless of whether the person was formally excommunicated or committed a sin which carries an automatic excommunication (such as abortion). In this case, the bishop (and in some cases, the Holy See), must lift the excommunication first (or deputize a priest to be able to do so) before the person can receive absolution again.

And remember, it’s Jesus who grants the forgiveness through the priest.

If I may add to this, for non-Catholics and those who believe in OSAS, this explanation may seem complex and burdensome, but let me assure you, it is not. When you really come to a proper understanding of how all sin in your life offends God, you will naturally want to avoid it, and when you do sin, confess it to a priest, and Jesus forgives you through the priest, just as Our Lord commanded the Apostles to do.

 

[PJM]

=eazyduzit;13269843]I am confused by your claims PR. First i am told that Catholics are not saved in baptism and now thy are? Does it depend on who we ask?

NO

It depends on two factors:

WHEN [the age at which they are Baptized; the explanation is here below.

Because one of the chief effects of Baptism is in effect making one’s SOUL PERFECT; not only removing all sins; BUT also all the latent effect of sins that we term the “Temporal Punishment” that all sin accrues.

So one who has attained “the age of reason” [about age 7 yrs old], and then is Baptized would quality for immediate and direct entry into heaven; so long as they do not sin again before dying.

This then applies in that same manner to an adult who is Baptized; who is PERFECTED until that person sins again.

Infants that are Baptized; and die before they attain the age of reason; too are Perfected and go straight to heaven.

So the issue is Baptism perfect our soul totally and completely; until and unless we sin again. AMEN!

God bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=In His Grace;13270269]Speaking of John the Baptist, is it possible to be filled with the Holy Spirit apart from faith? …

“… and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. …the baby leaped in her womb…the baby leaped in my womb for joy.” (Luke 1:15,41,44)

I’m not a theologian but The answer is no. Why

There is an necessary; an essential connection between Grace and Faith

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God

Similarly the Holy Spirit is received in and through Sacramental Baptism; BUT in a fuller manner through Sacramental Confirmation.

As a FYI: Only today’s Catholic Church Has the Seven Sacraments; all of which were Instituted by Jesus Christ in their Fullness…

The example you shared was a Miracle; not something that was or is to be repeated unless it somehow serves God’s Divine and Perfect Will to do so.

Obviously God had a reason; a purpose and a agenda in doing this for His Cousin John.
[Luke chapters 1 & 2]

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=In His Grace;13270841]Also, as to whether or not God grants faith to infants through the Sacrament of Baptism, Lutherans would say yes and Catholics would say no. I realize you don’t hold to the view of baptism being a sacrament.

Thanks and blessings.

NO! Infant Baptism does not include the Gift of Faith; which requires our cooperation though our minds, intellects and freewill’s. Faith can NEVER be forced as that would be a sign of predestination; which too is impossible for God to impose.

The “faith” at Baptism is the Faith of their parent and Sponsors; who accept the the obligation and responsibility to do ALL that “they can” do once the child become of sufficient age to begin learning “the Faith.”

God commits Himself to make available to every Soul at least “sufficient Grace” that they can come freely to know Him.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[RyanBlack]

I’m not a theologian but The answer is no. Why

There is an necessary; an essential connection between Grace and Faith

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God

Similarly the Holy Spirit is received in and through Sacramental Baptism; BUT in a fuller manner through Sacramental Confirmation.

As a FYI: Only today’s Catholic Church Has the Seven Sacraments; all of which were Instituted by Jesus Christ in their Fullness…

The example you shared was a Miracle; not something that was or is to be repeated unless it somehow serves God’s Divine and Perfect Will to do so.

Obviously God had a reason; a purpose and a agenda in doing this for His Cousin John.
[Luke chapters 1 & 2]

God Bless you,

Patrick

The Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and a few others have all seven sacraments.

 

[PJM]

=JMM1957;13271916]Unless I am misunderstanding, doesn’t the parable of the workers in the vineyard (Matt. 20) show otherwise? Wasn’t the wage (one denarius) given to everyone no matter when they started working in the vineyard that day?

That my friend is an excellent point; BUT, You’re taking away the wrong message from the parable.

The teaching here is the Grace is God’s domain; and He alone can determine who receives how much and of what type.

Here from Haydock’s Catholic Commentary is his explanation:
" Other interpreters, by the day understand human life; and by the different hours, infancy, youth, the age of manhood, old age, and the last hour man’s decrepit age. God is master and disposer of all, who by his grace calls some sooner, some later. The market-place, in which men are so often found idle, as to the great concern of their eternal salvation, is the world. The design of this parable was to shew that the Gentiles, though called later than the Jews, should be made partakers of the promises made to the Jews; this is also the meaning of verse 16, where it is said: the last shall be first, and the first last. (Witham)"

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=eazyduzit;13272848]Interesting. But please explain what is the " life of grace"? Is there a biblical reference? What are the effects of it? Does scripture speak of the “infusing power” of baptism?

By “Life of Grace” means that one is walking obediently and humbly with God; and through God’s Offered and ACCEPTED Grace, is living a life without sin. This is especially applicable to Sacramental Grace’s which God’s Benevolence permits the recipient to “control” the amount of grace received by the degree of active and worthy participation in the Sacrament. All other Grace forms are totally God;s treasure to distribute as He sees fit.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[JMM1957]

That my friend is an excellent point; BUT, You’re taking away the wrong message from the parable.

The teaching here is the Grace is God’s domain; and He alone can determine who receives how much and of what type.

Here from Haydock’s Catholic Commentary is his explanation:
" Other interpreters, by the day understand human life; and by the different hours, infancy, youth, the age of manhood, old age, and the last hour man’s decrepit age. God is master and disposer of all, who by his grace calls some sooner, some later. The market-place, in which men are so often found idle, as to the great concern of their eternal salvation, is the world. The design of this parable was to shew that the Gentiles, though called later than the Jews, should be made partakers of the promises made to the Jews; this is also the meaning of verse 16, where it is said: the last shall be first, and the first last. (Witham)"

God Bless you,

Patrick

I can see this interpretation also, thanks!