What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[JMM1957]

Hi JMM1957,

You are almost 60, I am 60, and Patrick is 71. All of us remember what came out of the 1960’s and actually began way before the 1960’s but definitely accelerated like on super steroids during the 1960’s. The culture is ravaging Christendom.

Blessings

I’m a cradle Catholic myself, went to Catholic elementary school for 8 years, went to church services regularly, but to be honest, I have only been serious about my faith for the last 15 years or so. What really got me cracking open the Bible frequently was having to defend my beliefs to a few Jehovah’s Witnesses that I worked with regularly. Since then, I have developed a deeper and deeper faith and relationship with Jesus, it was God’s grace that pulled me back from the downhill slide I was on, and put me on the right path. It’s a daily battle though to keep focused on Jesus, as you well know, with all the worldly distractions out there.

 

[In_His_Grace]

I’m a cradle Catholic myself, went to Catholic elementary school for 8 years, went to church services regularly, but to be honest, I have only been serious about my faith for the last 15 years or so. What really got me cracking open the Bible frequently was having to defend my beliefs to a few Jehovah’s Witnesses that I worked with regularly. Since then, I have developed a deeper and deeper faith and relationship with Jesus, it was God’s grace that pulled me back from the downhill slide I was on, and put me on the right path. It’s a daily battle though to keep focused on Jesus, as you well know, with all the worldly distractions out there.

… I have developed a deeper and deeper faith and relationship with Jesus, it was God’s grace that pulled me back from the downhill slide I was on, and put me on the right path. It’s a daily battle though to keep focused on Jesus, as you well know, with all the worldly distractions out there.

amen!

These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world. (John 16:33)

In His Grace

 

[eazyduzit]

By “Life of Grace” means that one is walking obediently and humbly with God; and through God’s Offered and ACCEPTED Grace, is living a life without sin. This is especially applicable to Sacramental Grace’s which God’s Benevolence permits the recipient to “control” the amount of grace received by the degree of active and worthy participation in the Sacrament. All other Grace forms are totally God;s treasure to distribute as He sees fit.

God Bless you,

Patrick

Thank you Patrick, your definition of “life of grace” is an exact quote from CCC.

So maintaining salvation means:

1. Walking obediently
2. Avoiding sin.

In contrast, the Bible says, “But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound” .Rm5:20

Heb10:2 says,"…the worshippers once purged should have no more conscience of sins".

In other words, if we are still looking at our sins, then we are not walking by faith.

I know this sounds shocking to religious ears, but if we keep on being conscious of sins as the man in Rm7, it will lead to bondage.

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you Patrick, your definition of “life of grace” is an exact quote from CCC.

So maintaining salvation means:

1. Walking obediently
2. Avoiding sin.

In contrast, the Bible says, “But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound” .Rm5:20

Heb10:2 says,"…the worshippers once purged should have no more conscience of sins".

In other words, if we are still looking at our sins, then we are not walking by faith.

I know this sounds shocking to religious ears, but if we keep on being conscious of sins as the man in Rm7, it will lead to bondage.

None of those verses are “in contrast” to avoiding sin and walking obediently.

Catholics give a hearty amen! to all of the verses you posted.

 

[Michael68]

None of those verses are “in contrast” to avoiding sin and walking obediently.

Catholics give a hearty amen! to all of the verses you posted.

AMEN!!!

 

[eazyduzit]

Umm…the measure of what is Catholic is not what is “reflected in Augustine” et al.

Best to cite the “sure norm” for the faith–the Catechism.

Or encyclicals.

So the CCC is not built on any church fathers?

 

[PRmerger]

So the CCC is not built on any church fathers?

The Catechism is based on the teachings of Christ, given to His Apostles, and to their successors.

Where St. Augustine, St. Anselm, St. Thomas Aquinas et al profess things which are consonant with the teachings of the Church, we say

but it’s an uninformed person who reads St. Augustine (or any of the saints, theologians, thinkers in the Church) and concludes: (s)he taught it, therefore all Catholics must believe it.

 

[eazyduzit]

None of those verses are “in contrast” to avoiding sin and walking obediently.

Catholics give a hearty amen! to all of the verses you posted.

Okay, great, but none of that was alluded to in CCC.

I believe that once i throw in my hat, i will stay with it and not waver, but go all the way.

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, great, but none of that was alluded to in CCC.

I think you’ll need to read the Catechism a bit better.

Each of those verses is most definitely alluded to in the CCC.

See here:

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/OEBPS/44-john.xhtml#john

I believe that once i throw in my hat, i will stay with it and not waver, but go all the way.

I don’t know what you mean by this.

 

[JMM1957]

I believe that once i throw in my hat, i will stay with it and not waver, but go all the way.

“this is a hard saying, who can accept it?”

 

[powerofk]

The Catechism is based on the teachings of Christ, given to His Apostles, and to their successors.

Where St. Augustine, St. Anselm, St. Thomas Aquinas et al profess things which are consonant with the teachings of the Church, we say

but it’s an uninformed person who reads St. Augustine (or any of the saints, theologians, thinkers in the Church) and concludes: (s)he taught it, therefore all Catholics must believe it.

Not only that, the Catechism quotes extensively from scripture. Remember - it was the Catholic Church herself, inspired by the Holy Spirit, who decided what belonged in the Bible in the first place (especially what belonged in the New Testament)! And we decided what Christian writings were scriptural in the first place primarily based on Sacred Tradition - that is, which writings agreed with Church teaching, along with small-t tradition about who actually wrote the writings. Writings such as the 2nd letter of Peter and the letter of Jude were very disputed, but were agreed upon as being scriptural, while writings such as the Revelation of Peter were widely read, but discarded as not scriptural. By the way, there were hundreds of early Christian (or supposedly Christian) writings that did not make the canon of scripture. Many of them were widely read, and many were read by only a few heretical sects.

Most of the non-scriptural writings can be broken down into three basic groups:

(a) spiritually edifying, but not scriptural (these are generally early Christian writings agreed to have been written after the apostolic age, such as the letter of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians or the Shepherd of Hermas, but also includes the Didache, which is the first catechism & missal of the Church),

(b) pious fiction (such as the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Protoevangelion of James),

and (c) heretical (such as the “gospels” of Thomas, Mary Magdalene, Judas Iscariot, etc., along with the “secret gospel” of Mark and the Letter of Barnabas, etc.)

 

[JMM1957]

Not only that, the Catechism quotes extensively from scripture. Remember - it was the Catholic Church herself, inspired by the Holy Spirit, who decided what belonged in the Bible in the first place (especially what belonged in the New Testament)! And we decided what Christian writings were scriptural in the first place primarily based on Sacred Tradition - that is, which writings agreed with Church teaching, along with small-t tradition about who actually wrote the writings. Writings such as the 2nd letter of Peter and the letter of Jude were very disputed, but were agreed upon as being scriptural, while writings such as the Revelation of Peter were widely read, but discarded as not scriptural. By the way, there were hundreds of early Christian (or supposedly Christian) writings that did not make the canon of scripture. Many of them were widely read, and many were read by only a few heretical sects.

Most of the non-scriptural writings can be broken down into three basic groups:

(a) spiritually edifying, but not scriptural (these are generally early Christian writings agreed to have been written after the apostolic age, such as the letter of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians or the Shepherd of Hermas, but also includes the Didache, which is the first catechism & missal of the Church),

(b) pious fiction (such as the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Protoevangelion of James),

and (c) heretical (such as the “gospels” of Thomas, Mary Magdalene, Judas Iscariot, etc., along with the “secret gospel” of Mark and the Letter of Barnabas, etc.)

Very good points! This is something that many non-Catholics seem to have ignorance of, intentionally or not. The Church came first, then came the inspired writings which eventually became the NT of the Bible, not the other way around.

 

[PRmerger]

Very good points! This is something that many non-Catholics seem to have ignorance of, intentionally or not. The Church came first, then came the inspired writings which eventually became the NT of the Bible, not the other way around.

Another thing non-Catholics often don’t think about: the ONLY way they know what’s inspired and what’s not…is because they give their tacit submission to the authority of the CC.

There is no other way they’d know that the Shepherd of Hermas is not inspired but that the Epistle to the Hebrews is theopneustos except…

that they submit to the CC for their decision.

 

[zz912]

Hi zz912,

I just wanted to make sure I understand Catholic teaching. If a Catholic commits a mortal sin, is fully culpable for the guilt of said mortal sin (based on grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent of the will), deliberately, consciously, with ample opportunity to do so fails to go to confession, such a person will go to hell?

Thanks and blessings.

Yes, unless they repent of their sin, and intend to go to Confession, but die before the opportunity to go.

 

[zz912]

Unless I am misunderstanding, doesn’t the parable of the workers in the vineyard (Matt. 20) show otherwise? Wasn’t the wage (one denarius) given to everyone no matter when they started working in the vineyard that day?

The parable of the workers in the vineyard was for the benefit of those faithful Christians who have diligently obeyed God for all/much of their lives. We are not to be angry or upset that God gives those who convert late in life the gift of salvation. God is saying to us, “have I failed to give you what I promised (salvation)? Why are you upset that I also save these as well?”.

In other places, Jesus teaches clearly there is a hierarchy in Heaven, and that He will reward differently. He teaches about the talents, and how the one who made 10 talents will be given 10 more, and the one who made 5 will be given 5 more, and one who did nothing with his talent will have it given away to the one with 10 talents.

So there is some hierarchy, and for those who labor diligently for Jesus, and sacrifice their lives for Him, will be rewarded with a closeness to Him that those who convert at their deathbed will not experience. They will receive Heaven, but the grace poured out on them will not be as great.

 

[zz912]

Interesting. But please explain what is the " life of grace"? Is there a biblical reference? What are the effects of it? Does scripture speak of the “infusing power” of baptism?

God’s grace is what sustains and saves us. It is called the “life” of grace, because we are dead in sin, and His grace restores life to us. There are many biblical references to God’s grace and death/life.

Scripture blatantly says that “baptism now saves you”.

 

[zz912]

Having said all of this if a person goes to confession with a truly contrite and repentant heart and the priest absolves the persons sins they are forgiven irregardless of whether or not they were culpable for the guilt of a mortal sin committed. Is my understanding correct?

Thanks again.

All sins are forgiven in Confession, mortal and venial. So it does not matter if it was mortal or venial, as long as they were repentant, and tried their best to list out all mortal sins committed and didn’t attempt to hide any.

 

[benhur]

Very good points! This is something that many non-Catholics seem to have ignorance of, intentionally or not. The Church came first, then came the inspired writings which eventually became the NT of the Bible, not the other way around.

JMM,

Do you really think we are ignorant of “that”. Is there such a thing as being intentionally ignorant of something. Like I know 2+2 =4, but I am going to be intentionally ignorant of it (when I already know it, am not ignorant of it ?) ?

We just differ on two of what plus two of what equals four of what.

Blessings

 

[zz912]

We have a different view of man’s ability. Do to the fall we acknowledge that man does not have the ability or the liberty to choose God.

This is why Jesus said in Jn 6:44, “No man CAN come to Me,except the Father. …draw him” .

Jesus did not say “may not” but rather “can not” meaning he is not able in himself to choose the good.

The “drawing power” of the Father is a prerequisite grace of salvation.

So the credit goes to God, not to man.

This is all correct. But we must also state that man must cooperate with God’s calling. God will not force you to love and choose Him. He welcomes, but does not force. So we must respond to His free gift with faith and works.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Yes, unless they repent of their sin, and intend to go to Confession, but die before the opportunity to go.

Ok, I understand. When you say “intend to go to Confession” this means, pertaining to mortal sin, a minimum of once per year per canon law (see below)? I realize it is recommended as well as good that a person go more often, especially when one is aware of committing a mortal sin?

Code of Canon Law

CHAPTER III.

THE PENITENT

Can. 989 After having reached the age of discretion, each member of the faithful is ob-liged to confess faithfully his or her grave sins at least once a year.

Thanks again and blessings.